Sammy,
A question that has a different answer for each of us. I'm like many on this forum that grow both op/heirloom's and hybrids. Being a heirloom/op doesn't make it a great tomato. Many were grown and selected in one area and basically one type of climate. They may do well in PA and not tolerate the heat and wind of OK, KS, TX at all. Finding those that do well in your garden is what takes time. With a hybrid you know the disease resistance it has. With an op/heirloom most of the time you don't. Unless someone who has grown it shares their experience. What I tell those who ask me is this. If you are happy with what you are growing continue to grow them. If you want to try something different then try a few till you find those that you like and do well in your garden. I know some of my coworkers haven't liked many of the op/heirloom types I share with them and then they will really like a certain one. I grow a few op/heirlooms that produce as well as any hybrid I grow. Yes many times the shapes can be more irregular and ugly to some. I don't mind that myself. There are those that are nice and smooth. I could start naming some but there are several threads on this forum that covers varieties that do well in this area and the favorites of many of us. I like a lot of the dark types. The larger Pinks used to be my favorites but like Caspian Pink for you they usually don't produce as heavy. On the average a larger tomato whether hybrid or op won't produce as heavy as the a small to mid sized variety. One of my best producers is a red all around type named Glick's 18 Mennonite.

I feel the appeal could be different for each of us. For many it is the flavor. Flavor and texture is something personal to each of us. And for some like me it is a combination of flavor and what will produce good here. I grow what I feel is the best regardless of whether it has hybrid or op at the end of the name. I like a variety of colors and flavors. Now my sister always says "What is wrong with a red one?" Needless to say when I pick plants to give them I sent those that will produce either round or beefsteak red fruit. I wouldn't say you are missing something. I would encourage you to at least taste some other varieties when you have the chance. And talk to local gardeners, nurseries, ect and see what they suggest. Just remember you are growing for your enjoyment. And if you are happy don't let someone else convince you that you should be growing something else. I like to experiment. And so enjoy growing many different varieties every year. Also when growing so many when one fails usually something else does well. If I didn't have the space and enjoy it I wouldn't grow so many either.

Indeterminate is the growth habit. Which in short means they continue to grow bigger till they die. Depending on conditions ect many will get 6-9 foot tall for me. Their fruit set is scattered over the whole season.

Determinate means they only grow so tall. And usually have one big flush of fruit. Many like them for canning as the fruit set comes off in a short time. They are good for containers ect as they aren't so hard to handle due to the shorter vine.

Have a great 2010 season. Jay

Well, I just really like the variety. There are so many types of heirlooms tomatoes out there that you can easily fall into becoming a collector (like me...thanks to all of the enablers on this forum!). I also really like the history. I know it may seem like a silly reason to grow a tomato, but I like the idea that a seed was passed down through one family the same way another might pass down a quilt or piece of furniture. I feel like it's important to keep that variety alive.

I think that a lot of people prefer heirlooms--or at least open pollinated varieties--because they can save the seed from one year to the next. If you like growing 100 different varieties, it can get pretty expensive to have to buy seed for each every other year or so.

I've seen a lot of negative talk on both sides of the heirloom/hybrid debate. While there are some hybrid producing companies that I choose not support, I think that both heirlooms and hybrids have their place. It doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. And, if you think about it, most heirlooms today are hybrids of two older varieties that crossed many, many years ago. They've just been stabilized through selection over the years.

Wow, thanks, Jay. Your thread is highly organized, and very easy to read as well as informative.

I know then that I like indeterminate, and was happy with most of the ones I grew last year. I will go back and see what others have enjoyed, and continue my planning.

Sammy

Sammy,

The appeal of heirloom tomatoes for me is their flavors and because of that I ignore their normal lower-fruit-yield per plant issue.

FLAVOR: Every heirloom tomato, when properly grown (i.e. not overwatered and not subjected to high rainfall) has its own unique flavor in the way that different wine vintages all have their own unique flavor. To some people, the flavor difference is significant and to others it is not nearly as significant. Since every human's taste buds/perceptions of flavor vary, any heirloom tomato can taste differently to any two or more different people. Sometimes I love the flavor of a particular tomato and someone else hates it. That's normal---you know, different strokes for different folks.

The first heirloom tomatoes I grew were pink and purple types and they tasted excellent to me if grown in hot and dry years and far superior to any hybrid tomato I'd ever eaten. In a rainy year, though, or if I made the mistake of overwatering or overfertilizing them, they were considerably lower in quality--having a mushy texture and fairly lacking in flavor. If I had only grown heirloom tomatoes in a very wet year, I likely wouldn't have given them a second chance. It was while exploring all the different flavors that I found the orange, black and green types and found even more unique tomato flavors.

When growing heirloom tomatoes, I have found it very frustrating to learn that wetter years give me significantly higher yields that have lots of cracking and splitting issue and have less flavor while much drier years give me significantly fewer fruit per plant but they have excellent flavor although smaller in size. I just learned to accept that heirlooms perform differently from hybrids, particularly in our erratic climate, and grow both types. I tried growing only hybrids one year about a decade ago for the higher yields and had great yields but missed the unique flavors of heirlooms, so now grow a mix of both.

TOMATO SIZE: With a few notable exceptions like Brandywine, I tend to like the flavor of smaller heirloom tomatoes better. The plants that grow exceptionally large fruit (those about a pound or larger, often classified as 'beefsteaks') often seem less flavorful to me while the ones that produce smaller fruit---usually those in about the 1 or 2 oz. to 8 or 10 oz. size---taste better. The larger ones also are more prone to cracking and splitting, especially in heavy rainfall years.

PRODUCTION: Tomato plants are incredibly picky about producing fruit in hot temperatures and you definitely notice it more in many heirlooms than in hybrids. Many heirlooms often touted for best flavor produce large fruit and have long 'days to maturity' numbers which often means the heat shuts down their pollination/fertilization before they've had a chance to set a lot of fruit. This can make getting good production on heirloom plants quite a challenge in any area where the climate goes from 'too cold' to 'too hot' very quickly as it does here. Both heirloom and hybrid types that produce smaller fruit are less affected by heat. Many hybrids are bred specifically to set fruit better at higher temps.

So, Sammy, if their flavors don't thrill you and you have trouble getting good fruit set, it might not be worth your while to grow heirlooms and that's perfectly OK, you know. There are plenty of fine hybrids too, although there's also lots of poorly-flavored hybrids.

I grow a carefully selected mix of both types. I love the heirlooms for their unique flavors, but they don't produce enough fruit per plant in our very hot summers to give me as many tomatoes as I want for dehydrating, canning and freezing. While hybrids more often give me the high yields I want, their flavors aren't as dazzling to my tastebuds as the heirloom types. By growing both types, I can fulfill my goals in terms of unique flavors and high yields. I tend to eat mostly heirlooms fresh or as dehydrated tomtoes, and reserve the hybrids mostly for canning and procesing. My favorite cooked tomato products, though, in terms of flavor are those consisting of a blend of both types. If heirlooms don't please you, then I'd say don't grow them. Or, grow mostly hybrids and try just one or two heirlooms a year in an effort to find the heirlooms that perform best for you.

INDETERMINATES: Indeterminates are tomato plants which essentially continue growing until killed by disease, drought or frost/cold temperatures. They are more of a vining type of tomato and continue to set and ripen fruit throughout the entire growing season although production will often slow down once temperatures are too high. Blossoms and fruit continue to form and develop progressively during the season so you always have fruits in various sizes and stages of development and you pick individual fruit all season long as they ripen. Generally, most indeterminates reach a mature height of 6' to 10' and give you tomatoes for several months.

DETERMINATES: The other main type of tomato plants are determinates, which are more of a bush form. They will grow to a given mature height, usually in the 4-5' range because they have the self-pruning gene. Almost all of their fruit and flowers form and develop at the same time so they often give you a larger harvest of tomatoes all at once, which makes them ideal for cooking, canning and other forms of processing. All the fruit they produce won't necessarily ripen in the same week, but they'll ripen in a fairly brief time frame. In some climates, once the determinates have produced their big crop and have been harvested, the plants die or stall and just sit there. Here in our climate though, they tend to give me a big late June/early July crop most years and then a secondary crop a couple of months later. Of course, tomato breeders have complicated things by giving us more compact indeterminates and semi-determinates. And, there are more complex explanations that go into more depth about how/when/under which conditions that both basic types bloom and set fruit and include discussions of the self-pruning gene, but I'm not that technically inclined to discuss those in depth.

Dawn

Laspasturas, I agree about the heritage aspect of growing. That is why I have almost all heritage roses. I appreciate your bringing that up. You might notice that we did cross post, and I did not see yours when I first responded to Jay.

Dawn, once again, you are a wealth of information. I am not sure what it was about my post that would have given the impression that I don't care for the heritage roses. I just wondered what the difference was. I do think that my Caspian Pink had a better flavor than the others I grew, but it was just barely better. Like you said about the heavier varieties, some did split. The Old German never did attempt to even form a flower. It just grew and grew, but never produced anything.

I need to explore other varieties now, and try to avoid those that nobody here recommends. I bought mine at South Wood in Tulsa, and the heritage ones were not as appealing when I made the purchases as the other tomatoes.

I do need to find the Tomato Man's daughter, and perhaps purchase my tomatoes a little earlier than last year, and wait to plant until the 10th.

My plants did quite well last year. We punched holes all through the lower sides and bottom of our whiskey barrels and metal pots. A friend said that everyone had a bad summer last summer, and nobody got much fruit. I did great. I watered them almost everyday, but with the holes in the pots, and quite a bit of mulch on the top, they must have liked what I did. Or maybe Old German didn't like it. It was probably baginners luck.

Thanks,
Sammy

Sorry, Sammy, I guess I assumed you had issues with either the flavor or production in our climate because those are the two most common complaints with heritage types. I do know some people who've grown heirlooms and not liked them at all and just won't grow them, and I know others who won't touch hybrids. I'm an equal-opportunity tomato-lover and grow all of both kinds that I can.

Your friend who said everyone had a bad summer was mostly correct, but I had better production than most so don't think that really applied to me. It really helped (for once) that southern OK got really hot and dry for a few weeks in the summer because that allowed the tomato plants here to ripen their early crop and put on a huge secondary crop. Most of Oklahoma was too wet and cloudy the whole year and had poorer flavor and production, so we lucked out at little down here. It actually was my best tomato year in terms of production since the very rainy year of 2004. Unfortunately, when I have one great tomato year like 2009, it usually is followed by a lousy one, so that dims my hopes for 2010 a little bit.

There's another thread here about Heirloom Tomato Plant sources in OK, and I listed three and someone else listed a couple. One of those sellers appears at several plant sales and farmer's markets and another sells through the Oklahoma Food Co-op so that might be some other sources for you too.

With respect to Old German itself, I liked it and it performed OK for me early in my heirloom tomato days but then I found others I like better. I've always thought its flavor, texture and production were highly variable in our heat. If you don't mind late tomatoes that don't ripen until August, Arkansas Traveler or Traveler 76 or Burgundy Traveler all perform very well here as does Mortgage Lifter.

I have noticed that young heirloom tomato plants often are smaller or a little different in appearance when grown by commercial growers. I absolutely do not know why that is true, but they seem to outgrow that. So, if by 'less appealing', that is the difference you noticed, just ignore it and they'll grow fine. It could be they are slow starters compared to many hybrids.

I'm a big believer that you make your own luck and while it may have been beginner's luck, I'm inclined to think you created your own 'luck' through all your research and your efforts to do everything in the best manner possible.

Dawn

Sammy,
The one heirloom that has never failed me is Arkansas Traveler. It's not the most interesting or beautiful, but it has always produced really well for me in the heat here in OK and also in Dallas. I can't remember ever having problems with it cracking, either. I didn't grow many tomatoes in Dallas, but I tried to make room for at least one Arkansas Traveler plant. I'd also really recommend trying a black variety because the flavor is amazing. I think Cherokee Purple plants are pretty easy to find. I'll be growing it for the first time this year.

Dawn and Jay and others here with more experience than me have given some great advice for heirloom varieties that do well in our climate in the thread I linked to below. I wish I'd seen it before I chose a few of the varieties that I did! I may have to find some room (ha) for a few Glicks 18 Mennonites now!

-Megan

Here is a link that might be useful: Heirloom Tomatoes for Oklahoma

Sammy,

Thank you for bringing up this subject. Every year I try a couple of heirloom tomato selections, trying to find one that I absolutely love. I am always disappointed in one way or another and have never found one that competed with my hybrid favorites. But it has been a deep dark secret of mine, because I felt like I would be beat over the head with a stick if I didn't LOVE heirlooms. Regardless, I will try a couple more varieties again this year because I'm sure there's an heirloom out there just waiting for me.

Marcy

Marcy,

I swear, as much as I love heirlooms, I'd never quarrel with anyone's right to try 'em and say that the heirlooms don't work for them. I would completely understand it and I can't imagine anyone here on this forum would ever be anything less than supportive.

There are plenty of yummy hybrids that I adore....Sungold and SunSugar, Big Beef and Beefmaster. Goliath and Whopper. Ramapo and Jet Star. Heck, I love Better Boy and Brandy Boy too. I love Rose Quartz and Momotaro. I'm trying three new hybrids this year that I hope may have the perfect mix of heirloom flavor and hybrid performance. It's a big world and there's room for all kinds of tomatoes and all kinds of tomato-lovers, growers and eaters.

As long as no one here tells me they prefer the flavor of grocery store tomatoes to home-grown tomatoes, then everything will be OK....

Happy Growing (and Eating),

Dawn

To the above statement about grocery store store tomatoes, I agree. They taste like some watery, nondescript fruit. The texture is terrible.
One memorable moment from gardening last year; My son gave a neighbor kid a ripe cherry tomato and he replied "I only eaten the tomatoes at Subway."

::sigh::
Dale

You're right, the issue is grocery store vs homegrown, not heirloom vs hybrid. When my dad worked at Edwards Air Force Base in the desert of California, a discussion arose about the difference between grocery store vs homegrown. One man said there couldn't be a difference because, "A tomato is a tomato." When my Dad disagreed, the other man said that if Dad could bring a tomato from home that was better than storebought, he would give him $10.00. Dad brought a couple of each, sliced them on different plates and passed them around at lunch. The man never said a word, just opened up his wallet and handed Dad the $10.00.

Chef, How's the new store doing? It's been a long time since I've seen you post.

Like I said. I grow both. And for me flavor is only part of why I grow or don't grow a variety. You will see some similar traits in most I grow. I don't like what I call extra firm to hard tomatoes when they are ripe. And usually don't grow many if any of that type. And prefer a thin to medium skin although if a tomato is nice otherwise I can live with a little more of thicker or tougher skin. I grew two hybrids last year that was too firm for me. My sister and BIL liked them. Another factor is whether they will do well and produce here in my climate. Doesn't matter if they are the best tomato in the world if they won't produce in you garden. Brandywine is one example of a variety that doesn't do well here for me or any of the growers around who I regularly visit with. And for me has never shown that too die for flavor. In order for a tomato to return it has too meet several of these criteria. I will grow a few of those with the firm fruit this year to take to the farmers market and also for my sister and some friends. They are good insurance. You can almost bet on them to produce fair. Goliath is one hybrid that meets most of my desires and one I grow every year. So if you are happy with a variety grow it. And don't let someone else convince you you shouldn't. I might encourage someone to try some of my favorites but never tell them not to grow something. There wouldn't be thousands of varieties out there if we all liked the same thing. Jay

Dale,

When somebody (anybody) tells me they don't like tomatoes, I know right away that they've never known the joy of eating a home-grown tomato (any homegrown variety of any type).

In particular, they've never stood in the garden, picked a delicious, fully ripe, bursting-with-flavor tomato and then stood there and eaten it like an apple, with juice dripping down their skin while the sun shines above and the birds sing and, for that brief moment in time, it is a perfect moment in a perfect world.

I have had people taste a home-grown tomato and say "I never knew a tomato could taste that way", and then I have to explain to them that all tomatoes could and should, but grocery store tomatoes don't and won't.

Dorothy, I just love that story!

Jay, I grow increasingly large numbers of those extra hard to firm tomatoes but I never eat them fresh. I use them to produce vast quantities of canned or frozen tomatoes for cooking, but when I can or freeze them, I mix in some of the heirloom types to give the batch better flavor.

I agree that flavor alone is not a reason to grow a tomato. If the best tomato in the world only produce 3 or 6 or 8 tomatoes a year, it just isn't worth giving it garden space...especially if garden space is limited.

All this tomato talk sure is making me hungry for a nice ripe, tasty one!

And, for all you new gardeners who will be growing tomatoes for the first time, here's a tip: never refrigerate your home-grown tomatoes. It will ruin their texture and flavor and give you something that has the texture and flavor of a store-bought tomato. Pick 'em, wash 'em, set 'em on the counter out of the sun, and use 'em before they go bad. Refrigeration ruins home-grown tomatoes.

Dawn

Dawn,
The way I determine the best tomatoes is those that I either never make it to the house with or have half or less of what I pick when I get to the house. I've never made it too the house with a Lucky Cross yet. Of course when you only get 3-4 a year that doesn't happen very often. There are others. The cherry cross last summer. I ate half of them as I picked. And grabbed a hand full everytime I walked by the plant no matter the time of day. Another thing that makes a huge difference in flavor is ripeness when ate. And that varies with varieties. My usual rule of thumb is when they are soft to the touch with a slight squeeze. But some varieties are different. I like those with a balance of sweetness and acid with lots of juice. That runs down and drips off your chin. But in the end I grow many like Black from Tula that taste good but not great but that produce well here in my climate. Also the taste of the same tomato variety varies a lot from garden to garden and region to region. Watering makes a big difference. I know a grower here that even in our arid climate almost quits watering after the first flush of fruit starts. He feels the great flavor is worth the reduced production. There is no right or wrong selection to tomato varieties if you like what you are growing. Jay

I think variety has to make a difference. I once bought an early locally grown tomato--I watched the man pick them--in midJune here and found it to be tasteless with a funny mushy texture. It looked beautiful, perfectly round and bright red. He said he had grown the plants from seed in his greenhouse and told me the name but I've forgotten it. Bad experience though. My Early Girls that came on a couple weeks later were much tastier and they aren't even my favorite tomato. I just plant them because they are early.

Jay, That's how I know I have a real winner of a variety...we eat them right in the garden and they never make it to the kitchen. LOL

I love Lucky Cross but stopped growing it because it doesn't give me many tomatoes. Little Lucky gives me more, but I haven't grown it the last couple of years.

I try to starve my toms of water once they're starting to size up ....it cranks up the flavor level a lot. I learned that when we had severe drought for several years and I had a lot fewer tomatoes but they were much tastier. If I could, I'd grow all my tomatoes dryland style for the superior flavor, but with dense clay soil, you can't completely shut off the water or the plants die.

Dorothy, I am sure that variety matters too, but think what really matters the growing conditions too. I don't like the flavor/texture of most greenhouse-grown toamtoes, and never have had a hydroponically-grown tomato with great flavor either. They are too mushy and taste watered-down like home-grown tomtoes that grow/ripen during especially heavy rainfall. Whenever I taste a 'home-grown' tomato (even those grown locally for farmer's markets or roadside stands) that's lacking in flavor and has a mushy texture, I suspect it likely was overwatered or that it sized up and ripened in April, May or June. To me, those first tomatoes of the year are not nearly as tasty as the ones that ripen under more intense light and heat.

I still grow and eat very early tomatoes, but as wonderful as the first few ripe home-grown tomatoes taste in late April and in May, they are not nearly as good as the later tomatoes will be that ripen up in better weather in June, July and August. I think tomato flavor and texture drop a lot in September and beyond too and think it is all linked to seasonal changes in the intensity of the heat and light.

Dawn

The restaurant is doing really well actually, thanks for asking Carol! It is though a slow time of year for catering and stuff so I've had more time to get a garden ready.
Speaking OnTopic;
I've noticed a big difference in seed germinations between certain heirloom types. Cherokee Purple from Baker Creek had 100% germination and like Dawn mentioned elsewhere, Dr Wyche's Yellow was erratic in it's germination rate, about 50% but seem vigorous once sprouted. Green Grape is nearly 100% this year. Some old seed labeled Crimson Cushion Beefsteak from Alexander's Seeds also had nearly 100% germination. Amish Paste from BAker Creek has, so far a nearly 15% germination rate. What gives?
I also use a heated pad to sprout habanero seeds and other chiles after many knuckle-headed attempts to insist otherwise. I can shake a fist at them and curse at them all day but they never seem to take off till I heat 'em up. Even then in the long run the warm-sprouted seedlings outshine the cold-sprouted seedlings most of the time.

So, out of curiosity what causes erratic germination in a stable strain? Has anyone else had trouble with Amish Paste tomatoes?
thanks for everyone's input, always,
Dale

Dale,

There is no easy answer to your question about erratic germination except that tomato plants and their seeds are as individual as human beings. Some fruit on some plants produce seed with better viability than other fruit from the same plants or from other plants. That is one reason why seed savers are supposed to save seed from as many different plants as possible. Even if a strain is stable, that just means it produces the type of plant and fruit it is expected to produce most of the time (mutations can occur, of course, as can insect-caused cross-pollination).

There are many factors that influence seed germination including how the seed was processed after it was harvested and how it was stored while at the wholesaler and retailer and while in the distribution chain. The age of seed matters too. Seed that is just a year or two old will germinate more quickly than seed that is 3 or 5 or 10 years old. The seed we purchase, by the way, is not necessarily 'new' or 'fresh'. They only have to put a "Packed For" date on the packet, not a "Grown In" year on seed packets. If you purchased seed that says "Packed for 2010", that seed could have been grown, harvested and processed in 2008 or 2006 or earlier. Very few retailers guarantee their seed is 'fresh'----Sandhill Preservation Center is one of them. Glenn only sells seed that is two years old or younger, I believe, which is why you often see varieties not available....because he or his contract growers had a crop failure or seed failure and he won't dip into old inventories to sell old seed.

The Federal Germination Standard for tomato seed is 75% as far as I can remember, and I don't think they've changed that. All that means is that when each seed batch is tested, it must show a 75% germination rate or it cannot go farther in the seed distribution process OR the retailer has to overpack the seed packets with extra seed to make up for the low germination rates. When a retailer does that, they are supposed to indicate the seed packet is deliberately overpacked so you know to plant extra seed to make up for low germination rates.

Once the seed leaves the wholesaler, it must be properly stored and transported, and also properly displayed by the retailer. If seed packets are exposed to excess heat, light or humidity at any point during the distribution process, germination of that seed can be adversely affected. Our local Wal-Mart has a bad tendency to put some of their seed racks outside in the garden center in January or February when the indoor gardening area is full of winter clearance and newly arriving spring merchandise. I won't buy seed on a rack that has been put outside because those seeds likely have been exposed to humidity levels that could adversely affect their germination, and the stores don't care....if your seed doesn't germinate, they expect you'll come back and buy more.

Normally, you'll see higher viability in hybrid seed because seed viability is one of the genetic characteristics that breeders select for when they are developing varieties. The folks who saved heirlooms chose for other traits....generally flavor, size and productivity in terms of pounds of fruit per plant.

For me, Dr. Wyche's Yellow always shows very erratic germination, but Amish Paste has not, although I haven't grown it in several years.

Glad the restaurant is doing well!

Dawn

I'm not sure why, but most tomato seed I've purchased, over the years, has no where near the germination rate of home produced seed. I can still remember a conversation with a former high school classmate, about how many tomato seeds to plant if you want a dozen plants. He said he'd plant about 20. I told him I'd plant 15. He replied "No WAY!." But if I produced the seed the year before, that's the way it germinates.

George

George,

I think mostly it is because your seed is fresh, has been stored properly all along, and was never exposed to adverse conditions during processing and storage.

I'll go further and say that seed from certain retailers always seems to germinate at higher rates than seed from other retailers. There are some companies whose seed is always slower to germinate and has lower germination percentages and I won't even buy their seed any more. Since a lot of the retailers undoubtedly buy from the same wholesaler, I bet the better seed is coming from retailers who maintain it in better conditions after they receive it.

Furthermore, I've noticed the quality of seed varies greatly. You can open a packet of one variety and you'll see seeds that are exactly the right color, are relatively large for tomato seeds and look 'just right' and they'll germinate perfectly too. The seeds I planted this year that had that 'perfect look' mostly gave me 100% germination.

You then can open a packet of another variety and you might see seeds that seem relatively small/flat compared to the seeds in the other packet, and perhaps even seem almost too dry, and their color is a bit off. When I see seed like that, I overplant because I expect lower germination, and that usually is what I get. I'm not saying I can always look at seed and know if it is going to be a great germinator, but I think I get a really good feel for what to expect.

This year, my Dr. Wyche's seed, purchased commercially, looked like crap when I poured it out of the seed envelope to plant.....and I got 0% germination which was even worse than I expected. I almost never get 0% germination from any seed from any place, but that seed did look really sad.

Dawn

My observations may be different than most. Many times you don't know the method used when seeds were saved. But from those that I've known most of the time when I've had extremely low germination rates they were saved by fermentation. First let me say I feel it is a great method. Just more can go wrong when using it. The two sources of seed I've had the worst trouble with over the last four years were saved by fermenting. One source had changed the place where he saved his seeds and used a non heated metal building and decided it got too hot. The other was a similar situation. It was just seeds saved during a certain period. He said it was hot and muggy and also something prevented him from processing on the day he felt he should of. Otherwise I normally see 85% or above on seeds whether I buy them or save them myself. And I don't feel I store them the best either. Of course here I usually have low humidity which helps. Dawn and Carol haven't gave me feedback yet on my saved seeds I sent them. Maybe I don't want to know. LOL. The standard is 75% on seeds sold. I know all seeds I've received that have a lower germination rate than 75% it has been stated what % it was and the packs were overpacked. Most of my order a few years ago from one popular source was all lower than the normal. One pack was 48%. I don't like it that low. I did just throw 8-10 seeds in every cell. My rate was about the same as theirs. I know from my saving and I know George has more experience that some seeds will be nice and large and others won't be. The fruits can look the same. I had one variety late last fall that produced big beautiful fruits 14-16 oz and not one mature seed in 8-9 of them. If a seed doesn't appear to be mature I don't save them. I know it is frustrating when seeds don't germinate. It seems I have at least one problem child every year. I have found rates lower with certain suppliers. Usually mine from what I call commercial sources have been high if I order direct. Like Dawn said if you buy seeds from some Wally Worlds you don't know what to expect. And maybe some Wally Worlds ect have different practices for each store. I do know back in Jan and Feb when I was looking for potting and seed starting mix I ventured outside to look at what they had stored in the outdoor area. Under some cover was a seed rack sitting outside. It had been in the single digits the night before. I feel this could affect the rate. But when ordering direct from Burpee have always had good germination rates. So handling and storage after they leave the supplier are very important. These are all just my opinions. Jay

I bet has mostly to do with environmental factors after the seed has been processed. I get my best germination when I do the fermentation method. Also, I consider my tomato seed to most probably be good for about 4-5 years. Yet the germination rate undoubtably falls over the course of time.

The biggest germination surprise I ever had was when I tested some Georgia Long Cowpea (asparagus bean) seed which was over a decade old, and stored at room temperature. It had 100% germination! I still have that bottle of seed, now over 13 years old. I ought to run another test ;)

George

I seem to be having poorer germination than normal this year, but I have blamed it on the fact that I am busy and have not monitored the temps like I normally do.

Jay, I don't know specifics yet, but I do know that the four Box Car Willie seeds that I had did not germinate. I think you said it was the last of your seeds. I have not counted any others but have noticed that it looks a little more sparse than normal. I blame that mostly on myself, not the seeds.

Dawn said that Dr. Wyche's was not germinating good this year, and I noticed that I only got 2 out of 5 seeds, but I may have more by now. I guess it's time to go look.

I just wanted to add, on the Indeterminate types, if you cut off the suckers and root them, they are usually more productive than the mother plants.. You may want to investigate that further!