Susan,

I try to avoid this topic because world wars have started over less controversial topics. : )

For the record, I don't believe GMO seeds are sold to home gardeners as they are developed specifically for commercial agriculture and marketed to them. There MIGHT be a smidgen of GMO corn sold by a seed company that sells all types of corn seed to both home gardeners and small farmers, but it would be labeled as such and easy to avoid if you don't want to grow GMO varieties. In fact, you'd have to look long and hard, I bet, to find someone who'd sell GMO corn seed to a home gardener.

My personal opinion is that I will not boycott a retailer who sells Seminis seeds nor would I encourage anyone else to do that. Most of the retailers who cater to home gardeners and commercial market growers (who have either CSA farms or grow to sell at local Farmer's Markets) offer some seeds that are produced by Seminis, and those seed varieties have been offered for years and didn't suddenly change into GMO varieties just because Monsanto bought Seminis Seed Co.

Would you expect a retailer like Willhite (one of my favorite seed companies) or Johnny's Selected Seeds (another fave) to suddenly drop random seed varieties sold by Seminis Seed Co. just because Monsanto bought the company? No. The seeds haven't changed. They are the same seeds they always were. They didn't suddenly find themselves contaminated by GMOs from Monsanto.

A lot of people have made Monsanto the boogie man....the evil empire....a cause to rally against. If they want to do that, that is their right but I won't do it.

The best way to get a business's attention is with your dollars. If GMO seeds were sold to home gardeners (and they normally are not), I still would continue to buy non-GMO seeds from that company to make my point that I want the non-GMO ones and not the GMO ones. If a company looks at its sales figures and sees that non-GMO seeds are outselling GMO ones 10 to 1, which direction is that company going to take in the future? My guess is they'll choose to offer the seeds that people buy. Remember, though, this is largely irrelevant to home gardeners because GMO seeds aren't marketed to us.

Do I approve of Monsanto's GMO crops? No. Do I approve of their Terminator Seed Technology? No. Am I going to boycott Johnny's or Willhite or Park Seed because a few of their veggie seeds come from Seminis which is owned by Monsanto? No. Do I boycott Monsanto products? No. Now, I may not buy many of their products because I garden mostly organically, but I don't refuse to buy something I want just because they manufacture it.

Having said all that about the GMO/Monsanto/Seminis seed issue, I'd like to address GMOs in general.

Unless you produce ALL your own food supply or only purchase certified organic food and food that is labeled "non-GMO" or "no GMOs", you eat GMO food every single day. If you drink softdrinks sweetened with high fructose corn syrup, you likely are ingesting HFCS made from genetically modified corn. If you eat cereal or corn chips or cornbread or anything that contains commercially-produced corn, you likely are eating GMO corn. There is simply no way on this earth to avoid eating foods made from GMOs unless you only eat organic. If you eat meat that is not certified organic, you're eating meat produced from animals that likely ate cattle or chicken feed that included GMO grain crops.

Most GMO crops are either corn or soybean and both are found in a huge amount of the foods that we eat. Drink protein diet-type shakes? They probably contain soy and that means GMOs or were made from whey, a cheese by-product, and that cheese likely was produced by cows eating GMO grains. Get my point? Our commercial food and drink supply are full of GMOs (in some types of foods but not all) but our gardens are not. If anything, the GMO issue is a reason to grow as much of your own food as possible.

On the list of things I worry about, Monsanto is not even on the list. This is a free country. They do their thing. I do mine. I'm never going to knowingly purchase GMO seeds but, as far as I am concerned, Monsanto and everyone else have a right to produce them and sell them to anyone who wants them as long as they follow the laws governing the use of GMOs. Please don't take this paragraph as a ringing endorsement of their business practices because it isn't. It is just a reminder that this is a free country and they are free to do as they please and so are we, so I think we all can live and let live.

If you don't want to purchase seed from someone whose seed includes some varieties from Seminis seeds, then only purchase from places like Sandhill Preservation Center, Seed Savers Exchange or Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds or any of the small seed companies like High Mowing or Victory Seed. Express your opinion by voting with your dollars.

I have a feeling that GMOs never will be marketed to home gardeners because so many home gardeners have made it clear they don't want those GMO seeds. I also have a feeling that the HUGE double-digit increases seen in the number of families with home gardens for at least the last 3 years has more to do with people wanting food produced in a more natural and more healthy manner than it does with economics. When I talk to folks who are either just getting into growing their own food or who are expanding the amount they grow, most of them do not mention the cost of food at the grocery store. What they do say is that they want food that is locally-grown, organically-produced and not grown in Brazil or New Zealand or Mexico (or wherever) and transported huge distances. They want to KNOW it is healthy, that it is non-GMO, that it wasn't raised with dangerous chemicals. So, I view the 'grow-your-own" trend as a backlash against companies like Monsanto and Dow. Do you think the ag companies are picking up on this trend and getting the message? I just bet they are!

Dawn

I am sure they are, Dawn, and very well said, by the way. I had an inkling it would affect commercial growers more than those of us who buy a few seed packets here and there for home gardening.

I just want to make sure I am not promoting anything that I truly do not believe in, and we've had this discussion on and off over the last few years.

Will I still be concerned about Monsanto? Yes, probably, but not only because they produce GMO commercial seed, but because I worry about ALL companies that have an egregious monopoly that affects the little person and we all know the worst offenders without mentioning names. I am a bit wary about what will happen a few years down the road, too.

In googling Monsanto, the number of seed products they are producing or applying for patents on that are GMO, is increasing, maybe not at a fast rate, but steadily beyond just corn and soybeans. Alfalfa is another product, beets, and others I don't recall at the moment.

I will just be monitoring to see what happens over the next few years, and there is unfortunately little I can do about it anyway. How would I even attempt to boycott such a giant? I really don't have the answer......yet. Grrrrr.

Susan

Susan,

I do worry about any company that becomes too large and powerful, and that includes all the big ag companies like Monsanto, Dow, and Archer Daniels Midland. Once a company has that big of a reach, they become incredibly powerful and are able to lobby Congress for farm bills that benefit them at the expense of smaller companies and individual farmers and ranchers. Maria Rodale has a book coming out called "Organic Manifesto" that I believe may address many of the concerns we have and, hopefully, make people think about what is going in our world.

Consolidation in the seed industry is a big issue and I hate it. When you ask yourself where have all the little seed companies of our youth disappeared to, you already know the answer...either a large conglomerate gobbled them up or it drove them out of business. And yet, I see hope in the internet. It used to be really, really hard for small seed companies to get their name out there because they couldn't afford big catalogs or big mailing budgets. Now, if they can afford a website, they're in business and I think we are seeing many small companies appearing because of that. That's a hopeful sign.

Now, if Monsanto ever markets Terminator technology seeds to the home gardener, I will boycott and refuse to every buy any of them and I do think I most likely would boycott retailers who were selling Terminator technology. Luckily for all of us, there are so many open-pollinated seeds out there that I think Terminator technology, in the long run, will fail the way that the Flavr Saver tomato failed. (At least, I consider it a failure. I don't know how CalGene feels about it.) All that CalGene proved was that they could genetically produce a tomato that would sit on your counter for months and not rot. However, consumers rejected it because it didn't taste good. So, you know, no matter what Frankenfoods they create, we have the ultimate vote in whether those products succeed or fail.

It isn't just Monsanto either. I was watching a court case the last couple of years that involved Sieger seeds and warted pumpkins.

Even though warted pumpkins/winter squash and warted gourds have existed for hundreds of years, if not longer, Sieger had (presumably) developed a line of hybrid warty pumpkins and gourds and was seeking to gain a patent not just for their hybrid varieties, but for ALL warty winter squash/pumpkins. It was an astonishing and incredible power play on their part, wasn't it? To think that they would presume they could patent 'warty things' that have existed for centuries and keep every other seed company and seedsaver from maintaining/using those seedlines?

Had Sieger Seeds won the patent case, those of us who grow heirloom warty winter squash, like Victor (aka Red Warty Thing) would not be able to save and plant our own seed from these long-time heirlooms. Earlier this year, Sieger lost that case but I believe they have the right to appeal. I haven't heard if they plan to appeal, but I hope the court sent a strong message that a company can patent its own seedlines, but not the traditional, existing open-pollinated seedlines that preceded their hybrids.

I am, by the way, planning to grow two or three of Siegers' warty pumpkins....Knucklehead and Goose Bumps and their Gremlins warted gourd mix. I would not have purchased their seed if they'd won that case. I would have boycotted them, and I would have gone to the heirloom seed companies and ordered every warted squash they sold before that patent ruling took effect.

The heirloom growers, both private and commercial, were up in arms over the Sieger case and wrote articles and letters, etc., and let it be known that it was wrong to let a modern-day commercial firm patent genetic material that long pre-dated their existence. I will be very worried about the future of agriculture in this world if the powers that be ever allow corporations to patent open-pollinated varieties that have long existed in the public domain.

I worry about Bt corn and also about Round-up crops and their impact on our world. I am afraid the Bt corn is harming the monarchs and other butterflies, and worry the constant use of Round-up will create herbicide-resistant weeds (this is already happening). So, I think all we can do is watch and wait, be aware of the issues, and choose the path we personally follow when we plant.

Dawn

I'm going to stick my big toe in this for only one little comment. More and more I'd like to get away from chemical pesticides and into more natural controls for pests and for weed control, too. I'd been researching weed killers (not because they are that unsightly - hey, they're green! - but because the grassy weeds choke my lawn mower every time and I'm tired of it) I was thinking of using RoundUp to kill off the cool-weather grassy weeds, but guess what? MADE BY MONSANTO
I was mad enough to read of the charges they made against farmers that were victims of either drift pollenation of their crops (by GMOs in test fields), or they had tested them, decided not to use them, and then still found themselves the target of the "big brother" chemical company...but then to read numerous accounts of Monsanto's hush-up of the toxic levels of RoundUp, the effects on humans and pets by the "safe" residual of it, etc., etc...I'm sick of it.

If ever there was a reason to grow your own food, so that you can KNOW what's gone into it, it's now.

I just wish I had more than an 8 X 8 garden...in due time, in due time.

Sharon...not normally a tree-hugger :)

Again my thoughts go along with Dawn's views overall. I will just make a statement from information I've gathered from many sources including local farmers and seed salesmen. Although haven't really talked too much about this subject in the last year. Most feed grade soybeans grown around here are GMO. As of a year of so ago non GMO corn was still in the majority. GMO can mean different things to different people. I've read about it and also had it explained to me. I've seen it discussed in chats I've been part of. And still don't feel I could tell you what is GMO seed and what isn't in many instances. I don't feel you will find any available as garden seed. One reason is cost. It is more costly to produce it. And in many cases when you grow GMO seeds you have to sign an agreement with them. I've read some of the heated debates on the forums about it and have quit. There are those with very strong feelings on both sides. I grow what I want from what source I want. I personally don't pay any attention to whether it is Burpee or Amishland. If it is an op I save it. There is one farmer in this region that grows non GMO corn and I think organically and makes chips that is marketed in this region. He has corn grown all around him. He just staggers his planting dates and has to have it tested every year. The last I knew he had never had any troubles. The old statement I've read that GMO crops are ruining the non GMO varieties isn't true. But when harvested and sent to the elevator and then the processor they are mixed and unless you buy a product that states it is organic and non GMO it very well could be. And one grown organically and non GMO will likely cost more. Due to decreased yields ect. A personal decision for each of us. I personally feel there are more important concerns than Monsanto seeds being sold to the home gardener. Monsanto is in it for the profit. I don't see it would be profitable or feasible for them.

I personally use Round up on a limited and selected basis. It is how I control the bindweed and keep it on the edges of my property so I can have a garden. Like Dawn stated continious use of it and other chemicals have developed a resistance in some weeds. Same holds true with pesticides. I try to use more non chemical means every year. Like last year I used Garlic Barrier mainly as a pesticide. Worked well on most insects.

I grow my own food so that I know what is in it, so I can eat it fresh and also can eat the varieties I find the most flavorful.

In the end I feel it is wise to stay informed and up to date on practices that have an impact on the quality and safety of our foods. But at the present I personally don't see any reason for alarm from GMO seeds in the home garden and no reason to boycott Johnny's or anyone. JMO(just my opinion). Jay

We have four small garden plots and are trying to be as self-sufficient as possible. That includes not supporting Monsanto and its monopoly and power over small growers. We found Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds (http://rareseeds.com/) and ordered from their catalog.

I believe greed drives all corporate decisions. It will be impossible to motivate the meek to defend their rights until the pressure to act is overwhelming. Then, the window of opportunity will have closed.

Just a shame really.

Sheesh, lots of economic ignorance, but then again this is a gardening forum. I'm curious what is the definition of greed? Also, if the corporations are so "greedy" what are they going to do after they kill all their customers with their products? What's the difference between a "corporation" and a "giant corporation"?

Personally I'm more concerned about my rights being violated by the government than some "evil" corporation.

The power elite ARE the corporations and their minions in office.

Was it just me or did our IQ just drop because we are a gardening forum? Just a personal concern.

stockergal,

Like we said in the Army.

“If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck”

Corporations have purchased our country while we were sleeping.

Ignorance has nothing to do with intelligence. Seriously, no one has ever been able to explain what the so called corporations gain by killing or destroying all the people who buy their products. Never heard a good definition of greed either.

Yes it's all the fault of the Neocons, the banksters, the Illuminati, the Trilaterals, the Bilderbergs, the Council on Foreign Relations and Henry Kissinger. I'm sure I've left someone out, but you get the idea....oh wait the CIA. OK I think that's most of it.

I forgot it was Earth Day. You do know they guy who started that is serving a life sentence for murdering his girlfriend? Seems he tried to hide the body by composting it in his closet.

ok, guys....lets just take a deep breath and remember that the core of this whole issue is that Monsanto MANY YEARS AGO started genetically modifying seeds to some of our basic needs like wheat. They "sold" the farmers on their production being higher...and then the trickle-down effect began. This isn't a new issue...just one that many are FINALLY paying proper attention to the effects. I have many in my social circle that refer to purchasing "fresh" produce as either "three legged" (meaning genetically modified") or "real" (meaning from heirloom seed). (Seriously - have ANY of you EVER grown a strawberry as large as the ones you see and get at Walmart????) This ain't rocket science or a conspiracy....just normal, rational attention to the issues of reality. If you can't understand that...then "Bless your heart"...because that is also defined as Redneck for "dumba$$".

And I may get banned for this last statement but I think everyone needs to look at the reality of this argument. 'Nuff said.

p_mac(7),

Many of us were asleep. Many of us are still asleep. I wonder how it will all turn out in the end.

Yep. I'm economically ignorant. lol

No worries. Osuengineer? The inability to read a label and make an informed choice as to what I feed my family and myself is a classic example of a violation of my personal rights. There are some classic examples of corporate greed (or the affect) written in the above posts.

I forgot about the earth day dude. Creepy!!

I cannot possibly find words to express how totally and strongly I disagree with almost everything johnnycoleman has posted in this thread. Dawn's post from a few years ago is a great post to keep everyone grounded.

scottokla(7),

I spent the best years of my life defending your right to hold any opinion you want.

I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to express it publicly.

Johnny Coleman

SSG, US Army

Retired

I'm confused. Are we talking about genetically modifying things by cross breeding and creating hybrids, or are we talking about genetically modifying things by manually inserting foreign DNA or genes into the cells? That's some of the ignorance I am talking about, because they are two TOTALLY different things.

p_mac you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Round Up ready/GMO wheat was never released to the open market. It was never grown outside of the company test field.

As far as genetically modified plants, people have been developing the science of genetically modifying plants since the 1850s! Didn't you learn about Gregor Mendel in high school biology? Actually people have been genetically modifying plants for millenia if you count grafting.

If people are so concerned about genetic modification, why aren't people up in arms about all the different breeds of cattle? They have been selected for certain traits and then bred with other breeds to achieve a desired result. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it! It's the same thing with all the different types of wheat, they are selected for certain traits or disease resistance and crossed with other varieties.

chickencoupe if you voluntarily buy food then you haven't had your rights violated. You chose to buy it, no one forced you to.

I'm sorry, osuengineer. I'd respond, but I'm just too stupid and ignorant to figure out what to write. I understand ya, tho. If everyone would just do things your way, life would treat ya better. Ya, struggled with that one a long time, myself.

I never said anyone was stupid. I don't care what anyone else does really. Post whatever you want to, but if it isn't true then I'm going to say so. My problem is that we only hear one side of the story and if you try to present the other side then all I hear is "evil", "greedy", "corporations", "Monsanto", "1%" and on and on.

Everyone wants to throw bombs, but no one wants to have a rational discussion.

History is full of the state violating individuals rights and wrongly using deadly force against them. It isn't full of corporations doing that. Unlike the government corporations can't put a gun to your head and force you to do something like the IRS, FBI, and other federal agencies can. You can choose not to deal with corporations if you want to, you cannot escape the government.

I feel personally vested in your right to freedom of speech. It always makes me grin when someone speaks their mind.
Yes, public dialog is very healthy for democracy. I sure wish more folks would put some energy and thought into our predicament. It seems only those who already know everything speak publicly.
I wish we could run this country as a democracy instead of an oligarchy.

Johnny, it's the ones who THINK they already know everything or think they know better than you. They are the ones slobbering all over the microphones and reading from the teleprompters on TV.

Most people are too afraid to say anything that might ooooooffffffffffeeend some one else. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you hate the other person.

One small correction. I would say republic, not democracy. Democracy is mob rule.

… Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. - John Adams

Hey we have a spring fling Saturday hope y'all show up

Tree

If they show up, I'm selling tickets.

osuengineer,
We must keep trying to create a more perfect union. Our current oligarchy is doomed as sure as the French revolution happened.

The meek will finally be forced to lash out. It will not be pretty.

Osuengineer, you are correct that no corporation has ever put a gun to our heads and made us do what they wanted. Our fear is that at the current rate of unchecked growth that one day they will have that power. You are correct again, I don't hate you I just disagree with you.

This country is great. I am free to buy from whoever I want. I am the boss, and so are each of you. You can't get mad just because a lot of other people want to buy something from a corporation you don't like. It's freedom! If we didn't want to buy, the corporation would go away within weeks. This system is so close to perfect that the truly greedy cannot stand it. I freek'n love this country! And I love the people that run WalMart, Monsanto, Exxon, etc. They have made us all rich compared to the rest of the world and our ancestors, and they have made it possible to help so many other people because of this wealth that 100 years ago it would not even be imaginable. God bless America!

Rate of unchecked growth? You should tell that to the the thousands laid off by Baker Hughes, Halliburton, Weatherford, Cheasapeake and Sandridge. Private companies are still subject to the market unlike the gubmint. Remember Westinghouse, Sears Roebuck, Montgomery Wards, Enron, Pan-Am, TWA, MCI, Southwestern Bell, Oldsmobile and Pontiac? Some day Walmart will be but a memory as well. You should be more worried about the cumulative effect of 100 + years of government schools.

osuengineer, try to tone it down a bit. Realize we are all here for gardening and although it is pretty obvious you could correct a lot of us in a lot of threads, add a little sugar to the medicine. I have not disagreed with a single thing you have posted here, but even I have been a little offended a couple of times. That said, keep the posts coming.

I am trying to buy a kit to test for GMO contamination in my corn crop. I have been advised by a doctor at the USDA there is no one test for all GMO corn traits. It looks like I'll have to spend a lot of my meager income to tell my customers, in good faith, that my corn is not contaminated with GMO traits. One source of GMO testing supplies

I have a garden 10 feet from a wheat field and 50 from canolia the last 2 years over spray has killed my hard work now using planes on the windy days it keeps me sick keep on a keeping on

Tree

I know that's not GMO but they came up with a new super pesticide

Tree,
Have you filed a complaint with the Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality? That's where I'd start.

I have been in contact with a few GMO experts. Here are a couple of links for testing services.

Hi Johnny,

Thank you for your follow
up. Our GMO test solutions come in kits of 100 tests, so purchasing a kit
from us to do your testing would be excessive for what you are looking to
do. I would recommend sending a few of your samples away for third party
analysis. Here are two places you can contact for further information and
can help you:

·
Genetic ID - http://www.genetic-id.com/Home.aspx

·
Eurofins - http://www.eurofinsus.com/food-testing/testing-services/gmo-testing/

Best of luck, please let me know
if you have any further questions!

Sam