Scoot, I find your remark that the brown patch does not kill the lawn interesting. Have you treated with cornmeal in past years and has the treatment been successful?

It is imperative that when one sees the first sign of brown patch cornmeal treatment must begin. Cornmeal scattered on and around suspect patches and wetted down using a hose. Retreat again with cornmeal in two weeks.

Working on a hunch and my experiences with southern lawn problems I ask you to try an experiment for me. When you spread the cornmeal, would you also heavily toss on one half of the bad spot handfuls of granulated sugar. I would be interested to know if you see any recovery difference between the sugared and non sugured sections.

Ive used cornmeal the last 2 years @ 20lbs per 1000 as soon as the brown patch appeared. Both times it stopped it from spreading.

In the past the affected areas have thinned and turned brown/greenish/yellow, but have never completely died. Come spring I apply a light layer of compost to the area and it recovers within a month or 2 after spring green up.

This is the first year of applying the cornmeal before the brown patch. I was hoping it would stop it from coming up, but no such luck.

I don't know about the sugar experiment, but I might try molasses.

Are you suggesting to apply more cornmeal?

Yes, please begin cornmeal treatment today. And, I am asking you to divide the brown patch area in half, scattering a heavy dose of granulated sugar on one half and not on the other. For this experiment molasses is not a satisfactory substitute for sugar. In a month or so you should notice a difference in the recovery between the sugar treated and non sugar treated areas. If you do, report back and then I can tell you what I think is your lawn problem. Easy, organic experiment. Give it a try.

I would think that unsulfured blackstrap molasses would be superior to refined sugar. Try that on 1/3 of an area along with sugar and control area.

In additional to corn meal, put another thin layer of good quality compost to add more right set of organisms just in case there isn't enough of that in the first place. Is that in Floratam?

My neighbor had BP problem too and he gave me money to buy corn meal and I spread corn meal heavily over infected area followed by molasses spraying. It seemed to do the trick. I didn't put down compost mainly because my neighbor is too darn lazy to get compost or maintain his lawn.

I am having flashbacks to a number of years ago when Dchall and I were trying to convince gardeners of the attributes of cornmeal. It was quite a battle and hours of writing to convince you all to try it, especially on Brown Patch. I am now using a number of unusual organic methods which I will not post about due to those who pop in with their contrary thoughts rather than understanding that experiments are done one at a time and results studied before making changes. In this case, based on my trials and what I think is happening in scoot cat's lawn...I would like granulated sugar to be used. End of story.

What exactly does granulated sugar do? How do they fight brown patch? I've never heard of it and I've been listening to Dr Elaine talk about all kinds of things but I don't think she talked about granulated sugar for disease control. Also, Elaine mentioned that blackstrap unsulfured molasses tend to be more 'complex' sugar and can feed wider range of organisms including fungi which I meant by 'superior' to simple refined sugar. There are also loads of nutrients in molasses as well.

nandina:
thanks for your replies. Im not trying to be argumentative here. I just want to know why you think sugar will make a difference. I've been organic for 3 years now and have alot of knowledge on organic lawn care. I personally, have never heard of using granulated sugar. This forum is all about sharing Ideas, experiential ideas and why you personally feel or know they will benefit your lawn.

I know for a fact that I have Brown Patch disease (also called Rhizoctonia Blight) and I know of the Occurrence, Symptoms/Signs etc. Like I said before, this isn't the first time I had this disease. I stopped it from spreading in the past using cornmeal @ 20lbs per 1000. It has never killed the affect area, it just looks awful during winter(the dormant season).

lou:
As always, thanks for helping. Yes, I am referring to St.Augustine Floratam. (I know I still owe you a pic of a runner) I am planning on using the molasseses. I am not sure about the sugar as suggested above. What do you think about applying applying more CM? Is there anything else that you know of?

About the compost; I usually apply it in spring, once the disease areas has finished thriving. Should I apply it now, during the onset of brown Patch?

Here are my thoughts on the topic. If Nandina suggests doing an experiment a certain way, start doing it immediately before the opportunity passes. Then come back and ask the 'why' questions. In all the years I've been on GardenWeb, Nandina is the only one I trust with experiments.

Regarding granulated sugar: I am the only person I have ever read here that uses table sugar for anything. If you do a GardenWeb search on 'dog pee spots,' you'll find me suggesting to scatter a handful of table sugar on the dead spots caused by female dogs in the fall or winter lawns. Carbohydrates, whether refined (granulated table sugars), waste material (molasses), or otherwise processed (vinegar), provide food for bacteria. Carbs seem to increase the population of bacteria while corn meal provides a feedstuff to increase the population of the predatory Trichoderma fungus. Nandina might be looking for a symbiotic relationship between bacteria and fungi to improve the effectiveness of fungus prevention and eradication. The advantages of table sugar over molasses include availability, cost, and ease of application.

Briefly, to fill in the hole on the dog pee, the problem is too much urea in one spot. The microbes that process the urea are not getting a well rounded meal and apparently do not reproduce. Give them some carbs and they reproduce fast enough to process the urea and create an extremely fertile spot leading to very fast, dense, dark green growth of grass on the spots. I would liken the results to grass on steroids.

Skoot Cat,

Do you get those compost from same place? Floratam is supposedly good at resisting brown patch compared to other varieties. Throw in 2 years of corn meal application and compost as well and you still get brown patch of that magnitude. It doesn't make sense why you still get it. Maybe it wasn't such good compost or it didn't have much of trichoderma fungi in it, who knows? I'd put down CM and compost right away to keep BP from getting worse.

I get unsulfured molasses at walmart. It's easy enough finding the unsulfured type. It is quite bit thick though so you can mix it with seaweed liquid to make it easier to spray through ortho dial which gets the job a heck lot faster than 2 gallon pump sprayer. It would be interesting to see how granulated sugar makes any difference. I just know that someone used it to control weeds (by reducing nitrates in the soil which promotes weed growth).

Lou,

The compost comes from many different sources. Some homemade, some bagged leaf compost, etc etc. Im not sure of the quality either. I use it in the spring, after the brown patch has run its course. I only use it on the affected areas, not the entire lawn.

The current area of BP has never had compost applied.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Dchall. In this situation I am after a specific 'something' directed toward a Florida growing situation. It has worked well a bit north of FL but I do not know if it will be effective on winter grass and what I think may be the problem. Hopefully scoot-cat will try a sugar treatment and report observations.

Skoot cat,

It probably makes sense that that area never had compost. Go ahead and put down compost to introduce beneficial fungi into the soil then apply corn meal and water them in.
you probably should do it for the rest of the lawn that didn't get compost in the past. Just light dusting is all you need.

Experiments have to be done a certain way or else there is no confidence in the results. To be able to draw conclusions you have to hold as much constant as you can.

I know a guy here in San Antonio who uses Wal-Mart brand potting soil in his potted plant experiments. This guy has access to unlimited amounts of anything he wants, but he uses Wal-Mart brand simply because it is always the same in every town in America. He can go anywhere and do his experiments.

A friend of mine sent me something today. He did a Google search on "compost tea maker" and my website was the number one hit. I don't know why that happens or if it means anything, but it's kinda cool.

Here is a link that might be useful: Deuley's Compost Tea Maker

Carbohydrates, whether refined (granulated table sugars), waste material (molasses), or otherwise processed (vinegar), provide food for bacteria. -dchall

I have been looking into the cost of sugar since I first read this from an earlier post. Beet sugar, in bulk, is about half the price of the standard granulated.

Is there much of a difference in the nutritive value between those 2? thanks for the info :)

Without being a microbiologist, I couldn't tell you. I was surprised when I was told that vinegar was close to being a sugar, but the chemical formula clearly makes it a carbohydrate.

I will assume that beet sugar is as much a carbohydrate as C&H and give it a try.
I was just looking for a comparison to the molasses in that someone had noted that molasses feeds a wider range of bacterias etc.
What caught my eye was the comment about dog spots.
Thank-you for the reply.

Thank you all for your replies.

I started the cornmeal/sugar experiment about a week ago. The BP area is roughly 300sqft. I put down 10-lbs of cornmeal on and around the affected area. I also put down 5-lbs of sugar on half the area (roughly 150sft) and watered in.

I will re-post the result in a few more weeks.

One more thing I forgot about. Last fall/winter a Ph test indicated that my Ph was 5.5. I put down 30lbs/1000 of dolomite lime and I haven't had a soil test since.

It wasn't a very good idea to put lime down. It is a salt and can ruin soil biology to a degree. You probably want to put down compost to re-introduce microbes into the soil. To tell you the truth, cornmeal, sugar, etc won't work as long as there isn't right set of organisms in the soil to fix the problems. That's where compost comes in. Over time, the bacteria in the soil will bring pH closer to neutral as long as you don't do anything to ruin soil biology. That means no liming. Maybe repeated usage of molasses will speed up bacterial growth to bring pH back up some.

I'll have to ask Dr. Ingham about bringing pH up without liming...

Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) is the active ingredient in agricultural lime. It is a common substance found as rock in all parts of the world, and is the main component of shells of marine organisms, snails, and eggshells.

Calcium Carbonate is not a salt. It is a base. Calcium Carbonate is commonly used medicinally as a calcium supplement or as an antacid.

I'm skeptical that lime in amounts that are normally applied to lawns can harm soil biology.

-Deerslayer

That's because you have no clue! You haven't even read anything by Dr. Ingham so you just pull bad information out of your butt!

Lou, look up the facts contained in my previous post for yourself. I'm really getting tired of your personal attacks. I think it's obvious to readers of this forum who is clueless.

I'll make you a deal. I'll read one of Dr. Ingham's publications if you take a high school chemistry course.

-Deerslayer

Skoot Cat,

How is the Brown Patch experiment coming along? I am anxious to hear what is happening to the side with the granulated sugar.

~Grassypants

I also have brown patch. Was wondering if cornmeal and sugar had helped?

I couldn't really tell if applying the sugar helped. Cornmeal has worked for me in the past, and it does stop brown patch from spreading. Full recover can take up to 6 months. I would use cornmeal 20-30lbs per 1000sqft. and sugar optional.

I don't know if just applying corn meal alone would help much in some cases. I would probably suggest that you try sprinkling compost along with corn meal in case there isn't much of trichoderma fungi in the soil that is responsible for getting rid of harmful fungi. I also would recommend applying soybean meal as well to help grass recover faster.

This is an interesting thread. If I plan to reseed some spots in our small yard
in the fall, is there a timing as to when to apply cornmeal?
Where can cornmeal purchased in bulk? At a local Feed Mill?
Thank you in advance.

I searched the past posts, and came across some helpful information.

The temperatures in SE PA have been cooler than usual, and hopefully
will help greening some brown lawns.