heh. It's a risk/benefit analysis.

You're gonna have weeds no matter what you do. Mulch makes those weeds easier to pull and prevents most of them from growing, to begin with. Mulch also holds moisture longer, lowering water bills and your personal 'time on target'. iow, it saves loads of time and effort.

Most seeds will also be killed by heat and the composting process while the mulch sits on the beds.

Add to the analysis that the mulch, itself, will be composted into the beds, adding nutrients. Whatever mulch isn't composted 'in situ' can be used on your compost heaps when you replace it.

I have fewer problems with weeds than many other gardeners, anyway. I tend to stay on top of them, pulling them and cutting them down when they're tiny, thus, not allowing them to grow large enough to present problems or create any more work than absolutely necessary.

Your mileage may vary. No warranties implied or expressed. Batteries not included.

I just put down a layer of cardboard or newspaper 8-12 pages thick on the ground beneath the first round of hay mulch. The cardboard and newspaper attract earthworms to the garden like mad, and they decompose in a couple of months, further enriching the soil. Weeds will sprout in the hay but I pretty much patrol the garden every day or every other day and pull whatever has sprouted, so the weeds don't get a chance to put down good root systems and become established. A few minutes of weeding very early in the morning or in the evening after supper will save a gardener tons of trouble later on. I pull weeds as soon as they are tall enough that I can grasp hold of them and pull them out.

I add new mulch constantly. Every time we mow the yard, the grass clippings go into one of the gardens as mulch. I'd rather catch grass clippings in the mower's grass catcher and spread them on the ground once or twice a week than have to spend oodles of time weeding. I also have hay stockpiled, just waiting to be used as mulch so I can add mulch as needed. Right before the heat cranked up and really got hot, I added about a foot of mulch to the potato beds that have the late-season potatoes in them, in an effort to keep those plants as cool as possible and to enable the tubers to size up well despite the high air temperatures.

Sometimes I feel like I am adding mulch to something every single day, but I enjoy mulching more than weeding. It is so much easier to prevent weeds from getting established than to pull them out after they are large and have deep roots.

You also need to have the mulch deep enough to block the light to prevent seeds present in the mulch from sprouting. If you put down an inch of hay, you'll likely have lots of weeds sprouting, but if you put down 3 or 4 inches of it, you'll have far less.

I alternate mulch types, sometimes adding hay, sometimes grass clippings, sometimes chopped and shredded autumn leaves or leaf mold I made from chopped/shredded leaves, or even pine bark fines. All of it enriches the garden as it breaks down.

Weeds are gonna happen no matter what you do. Mulching reduces how many you get, and being vigilant and removing them as soon as they sprout keeps them from competing with your plants.

If you only have time to weed once a week, then just do the best you can with it. Weeds can sprout and get established really quickly in the hot summer weather. They grow like, um, weeds......

I also plant really densely so that there is not a lot of bare space in between plants. Weeds sprout in that bare space. I use careful spacing so that the plants, once they are their mature size, just barely touch one another. That shades the ground and keeps down the weeds, too, along with the mulch since weeds need sunlight to grow.

You're right about needing to test hay that was sprayed with Grazon. We know from anecdotal reports from gardeners whose gardens have become contaminated with these kinds of persistent herbicide residues that the residue often can affect their garden plants for 3-5 years after they notice the problem, so if we assume the residue was in composted material that was, let's say, 6 months to a year old, then you have to assume it can persist for 4 to 6 years, though it won't necessarily.....it just depends on how much Grazon was used, how much residue remains in whatever they added to their garden, etc.

Remember that if a batch of hay shows it still has residue on it, you still can either compost it (likely for a couple of years before it is usable and I'd compost it separately from the regular compost pile) or you can mulch any sort of grain crop, like corn, with it, since it doesn't kill grass and grain crops. However, if you do that, you may not be able to grow any broadleaf crops in that area for several years until the herbicide residue level drops enough that it won't kill broadleaf crops. I grow my corn in the same area every year because I grow it in a corn cage (a fenced garden plot with a chicken wire roof on it to keep the coons out) and I am not going to move the corn cage around every year.

Dawn

I use hay without anything under it. I test it before hand and have to pull a weed every now and then. I even till fresh grass clippings into my soil at times. There has been many pictures of my beds posted and I doubt you have seen any major weed problems. I also plant very close.

Larry

Love using newspaper and cardboard for mulch!

As Dawn says, you can pile other stuff on top, but if you don't have other stuff, it's okay. If you have a nice thick layer of newpaper mulch, there are other benefits. Your soil will stay cool and moist, even when temps are hot. You don't have to water as often. Life gets a little easier.

so then do you till it in the next year or try to remove it before you till?

I use a wide variety of different mulches. I used mainly the alfalfa from the hay lot for years. Then the soil analysts suggested I used wheat straw for a few years. So the last few years I've used wheat straw. Back to using mainly loose alfalfa and alfalfa that is partly composted this year. I have tilled the straw in up till this year. This year I'm just pulling the straw back and planting then pulling some back and also adding loose alfalfa. I've had very few weeds this year. If I till it in I'll have a lot more till I get it covered with mulch good again. I may have to till a few areas I'm getting ready to plant as they were mulch covered paths last year. When I pull the mulch back I leave any that has composted and lightly work it in. Like mentioned above the few weeds I've had this year are easy to pull as they are not only young but also most have sprouted in the mulch so not anchored as tight as if they had sprouted in the soil. Jay

ok guys I'm goin for it. Straw is alost 5.00 /bale. Ive already used 3 and would still need 10 or 11 and that wouldnt be very thick. More money than I want to spend.

...and that, Borderokie, is why gardeners beg, borrow and steal mulch and compost from every where they can get it.

Buying that stuff adds up pretty danged quick. If you can find free mulch or compost, it's like finding twenty dollar bills laying around everywhere. Plus, it helps the garden a bunch!

This started out as my experimental garden about 3 years ago, where I tested the hay, hoping to find no herbicides. As you can see the Old Timey Cornfield pumpkin still look fine.

Larry

There is a landfill or dump in ft. smith that gives away or sells compost very cheap. I was told by someone who goes there they only compost leaves but I have always been afraid to use it on my beds because I just figured they put everything in it. Now I am contemplating going there to see. Larry have you ever been or do you know anything about it?

Sheila, I have a love/ hate relationship with the Ft. Smith land fill. I love the fact that there is nice compost near by for $10.00 a YD.. I hate the fact that it is so trashy with shredded plastic bags and other crap that you have spend a $100.00 worth of labor trying to sift the trash out of it, and using a 1/4 mesh you from a 10% to 20% loss. Another thing that goes through my mind is how much other pollutants may be in it. I think at one time they had inmates or people from Bost out there picking out the plastic before it went through the shredder, but not any more.

You can go to Mulch and More at the old Sutherland building and buy mushroom compost for $30.00 a scoop.
Both are too high, that is why I bust a gut trying to get all the free stuff I can.

Larry

Larry
there was a guy in at the greenhouses that said he asked them if they would take 30 for 2 scoops. Im just not very good at asking. Plus thats still expensive.

I would gladly pay 30 for 2 scoops at mulch and more, its pretty good stuff. The land fill stuff is not a bargain at any price, but over the years I have bought about 30 yards of it.
It is very hard for me to have the amount of organic matter I would like to have. I am in better shape now than ever before, I still have 6 yds or better piled on the lawn.

Is there a simple way to test hay or alfalfa to be sure there are no herbicides, other than just using it in an out of the way spot and waiting to see what happens? We are fighting the weed problem like crazy this summer thanks to the abundant rainfall. I am so leery of putting something on it that's been treated with herbicides. There's a farm store nearby that sells the small bales of alfalfa. We put some of that on it last year because I thought alfalfa was not typically sprayed, but this year a relative who farms told me alfalfa is sprayed ..... now I've driven myself crazy trying to decide what to use and so I've used nothing and the sorry crabgrass and weeds are outgrowing the veggies 10 to 1. Oh and the bermuda is attempting a coup d'etat as well! ARGH!!

Suzie

Suzie, I use grass clippings also. I will mow with the rider, wait a day or two and then windrow them with the rider after they have dried. I then rake them or use the small mower and catcher and dump them on the garden. I don't put them very thick because they can still heat. I don't think that method is as good as hay, straw or shredded leave, but its better than nothing.

Larry

Suzie, You can cut up the hay into small pieces....about 1/4 to 1/2" long, mix them 50-50 with soil-less potting mix and plant bean seeds in it. Give them time to sprout and grow----usually 2 weeks is long enough. If the plants sprout and grow fine, then the hay is fine to use. If they sprout, grow and then start looking sickly, the hay likely is contaminated with herbicide, and you'll need to let it sit for another 6 months to 1 year to let some of the herbicide leach out before you test it again.

With the herbicides we're concerned about, we are talking about a specific class of herbicides that include picloram and clopyralid. They kill broad-leaved weeds but not grass, so they can be sprayed on hay fields, the grassy parts of city parks or golf courses to keep the broadleaf weeds out of the grain crop or grass. Unfortunately, we have learned the hard way that this very specific class of herbicides can persist in compost, composted animal manure, hay, straw, etc. for several years. That is why we have learned to avoid products that might contain them and to test hay or straw ourselves to avoid contaminating the ground.

Alfalfa is in a class by itself. While it is raised to be used for hay like grain crops, it is a broad-leaved legume. Therefore, you cannot use picloram, clopyralid and other herbicides of their type on it because they would kill the alfalfa. That is why alfalfa hay is safe to us.

I am sure whoever told you that alfalfa is sprayed meant either it is sprayed with a grassy weedkiller to keep the grasses out of the alfalfa or it is sprayed with an insecticide to keep pests out. It cannot be sprayed with the herbicides we are avoiding because they'd kill it. So, I'd feel free to use alfalfa. Whatever it was sprayed with, it isn't the class of persistent herbicides that are causing problems. You still could test it if you want to, but I've never heard of alfalfa hay or compost made from it being contaminated with a herbicide.

The only possible risk with using alfalfa that was sprayed with a grassy weedkiller is that, if the herbicide persisted on the alfalfa, it could kill any grain crops, including corn. So, you wouldn't want to mulch a corn crop with it if you thought it might be contaminated. However, as far as I know, grassy weedkillers don't persist like the picloram/clopyralid class of broadleaf herbicides do.

I kinda think your relative might have been referring to Round-Up Ready Alfalfa, a form of alfalfa genetically modified to allow it to survive being sprayed with Round-Up. Even that alfalfa would be safe for you to use as mulch because Round-Up breaks down quickly and does not persist like the problem herbicides do. That's why you can replant into an area sprayed with Round-up within just a few days time....the Round-Up does not persist.

Remember, you can smother that bermuda grass underneath cardboard or black plastic if there is a way to fit it around the existing plants. I normally do that, and just dump grass clippings on top of the cardboard to hide it.

As a last resort, depending on your comfort level with using any herbicides at all, you can use an over-the-top weedkiller to kill grassy weeds in an existing bed of desirable plants. The last time I looked at the list of broad-leaved plants with which an over-the-top grasskiller could be used, it had 400-500 plants listed on it. Be sure you verify this herbicide is safe to use with edible crops. I see one of the over-the-top grasskillers featured by some companies that sell wildflower seeds so that you can control the grasses in a wildflower patch and give the wildflowers a chance to become established. Ornamec is the one I see in some wildflower seed catalogs, but I linked the one from Fertilome because it is the one I see in stores.

I do not usually see this product in big box stores or home improvement stores, but see it in nurseries and in farm stores like Tractor Supply Company. The key to using this sort of herbicide successfully is to read the label carefully and make sure it won't kill the very plants you want to save. I've never used this type of herbicide myself but know folks you use them and they seem happy with the results.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Fertilome Over-The-Top Herbicide to kill grasses

Larry, do your grass clippings have many weeds in them? The front section of our yard is sprayed for weeds regularly so I haven't used that in the garden for that reason. But the back part isn't sprayed so I've thought about using the grass from the back. Its very weedy though, probably has as many weeds in it as grass. But maybe the benefit of the mulch would outweigh that?

Dawn, well thank you, that explanation of the different types of herbicides helped me a lot! I think he was talking about Roundup Ready Alfalfa. Now that you've explained it I can see why that's not an issue. I've been focusing on digging/pulling the grass and weeds around the plants the last couple of evenings so that I can get them mulched good before the heat sets in again (looks like that's coming next week). I like the cardboard idea. Right now I'm focusing on the veggie garden but the flower beds are next. I have used the herbicide that kills grass but doesn't harm ornamentals in the flower beds in the past, and probably will again. Thank you again!

Suzie

suzie, my grass clippings are full of seeds, my hay is also. When I moved back on the home place and my stepdad saw how I mulched he almost stroked out, He said my garden would be full of weeds, I told him that his was full of weeds anyway. That has been several years ago, and guess who is using hay for mulch now. I don't even have a border on my beds and gardens. I try to stop the grass and weeds before they get into the garden, In the fall my clippings are mostly seed heads. I have just learned to fight them, they have been on earth longer than I have, and I expect they will be hear long after I am gone.

What to use and not to use is a personal decision we each have to make. I used to remove any grass clumps, ect that I hoed/pulled. Now I just leave everything laying to add to the compost.
Personally I won't feed or use manure from livestock fed Round up ready crops. Again that is my own personal decision from reading I've done. Just a personal choice. Jay

Suzie, My grass clippings don't have herbicide on them. We don't spray for weeds. I remind Tim that his weeds are my wildflowers, and that is the end of that argument. (grin) I should spray for grassy weeds, but I don't. We have mostly bermuda around the house, but too much crab grass further away from the house, where it isn't really lawn area....just the transition zone from the lawn to the pastures. If anything would make me use herbicide, it would be crabgrass.

I thought the heat was coming last week and had big plans for getting a lot done this week before the heat arrived, and the heat arrived today. Aarggh! I feel like Charlie Brown when Lucy holds that football out there and then yanks it back. It is only 92 degrees right now, but our heat index is in the upper 90s, and I wasn't ready for that just yet.

I don't get more weeds from the hay and grass clippings if I put cardboard or newspaper underneath them. I keep adding new clippings all summer long and at a certain point the mulch is thick enough that even if something sprouts in it, it is easy to pull up by the time it has reached up and grown up through all the mulch. As Larry said, I'd have weeds without the mulch too.

Jay, It is getting harder and harder to find something uncontaminated to use, so I mostly only use stuff produced on our property. Even with the chicken manure from our own chickens, I now have to put it in its very own compost pile because they are finding some of those clopyralid type residues in the manure of animals fed bagged feed from Purina, though it was the feed of 4-legged animals, not poultry. I used to add the chicken manure to the big compost pile, but now it has its own separate place so I can let it decompose without potentially contaminating my main compost pile.

More and more it is getting to where I rely only on our own grass clippings, autumn leaves, etc. At least on our own property, I know we haven't sprayed the stuff. This spring, my tomato plants got 2-4-d damage when someone sprayed somewhere, but it was minor. I need a dome over my garden to keep all that icky stuff out.

Dawn

I'd be happy if our yard wasn't sprayed for weeds, but Larry wouldn't, so the compromise is that the front yard and the back closest to the house is sprayed, but the back section where the garden is isn't sprayed. Last summer we (I should probably say I) let the crabgrass get out of control in the garden and, with the abundant rainfall this spring, it and the Bermuda are waging a war to see which one can overtake the garden first. Our plan of counterattack is to dig as much out as we can, then mulch with cardboard, alfalfa, and grass/weed clippings from the back, now that I finally feel comfortable using them after reading all your great advice. And next year (always next year, right?) we're getting on top of it early!!! Thank you again, all of you, for sharing your knowledge and experience .... you're all wonderful!

Suzie