Dorothy,

Well, I hope you feel better now that you got it off your chest. LOL Yes, obviously they made most of their choices based on $$ without doing thorough research into nutrition.

I, too, found their choice of Tang puzzling since they might have been getting vitamin C, but weren't getting the benefit of the antioxidants, phytonutrients and fiber they could have gotten from vitamin-rich fruits or veggies.

I googled and found their blog, and one of the many entries on their blog is a list of the groceries they purchased. I don't know what you'll think when you see the list of grocery items, but I was thinking that I probably would have made some different food choices.

I think I read somewhere a few days ago that they both are schoolteachers.

And, I agree that an experienced gardener probably would have taken an entirely different approach to this project!

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Dollar Diet Project Blog

Dorothy, great post! I never thought about sprouting lentils! Gonna start some today!

You know, regular old Kool-aid has vitamin C added now so they could've saved themselves the cost of Tang for the same amount of nutrition.

And these are teachers? Glory be.... What must they be teaching the kids?

When DH was in the Navy and I was a young mother trying to live on an allotment, I ate a lot of peanut butter and drank a lot of non-fat dry milk.

You don't suppose this is a hoax to get more hits on their blog, do you?

Great tips Dorothy!

We use a good deal of sourdough. We've always started it from scratch, without yeast. One time we kept the same culture going for over 8 or 9 years. We named the culture "Igor." Finally, after carrying it through many states and three different countries, we decided to eat "Igor" rather than to be in bondage to its' maintenance.

We, like many on this list, live cheaply by canning. Also, we raise poultry, which may not be so much of a money saver. But to be as economical as we can, we raise breeds of chickens which are really good foragers. The one we've had the longest is called the Kraienkoppe. Kraienkoppes are unique, in that they seem genetically programed to be voracious bug eaters. But it's hard to get them to eat small animals of any kind. I've NEVER seen one eat or even try to eat a lizard, which makes us quite happy. I've seen them turn their noses (beaks) up on mice. While the Buckeye, which we also raise, is big on small animals. Buckeyes hunt mice and frogs. The more a bird forages, the less costly is the end product (meat/eggs).

This coming spring we're going to trade in our Runner ducks for White Muscovies. Muscovies are super foragers.

George

Thanks Dawn, I looked it up and now I am really confused, and saddened. They actually bought quite a few fresh veggies, so now I really don't see the need for Tang. I would have bought green tea, and a couple limes to add the juice to it. It is sad that people will see that and STILL not know how well they could eat for how little if they would just buy UNPROCESSED foods. Ramen noodles? A total waste of money. If people would just stop to think that thousands of our ancestors lived healthfully before that stuff filled up the grocery stores....

And eggs and canned mackeral are still the cheapest animal proteins in the store, so I assume that there was a philosophical committment to vegetarianism rather than budget constraints in leaving off all animal protein.

I was happy to see that one of the respondants to the blog mentioned sprouting beans and lentils though.

The other thing that skewed their experiment is that they bought much much more than 60.00 worth of food, by buying in bulk. To make the experiment more relevant to those on limited budgets, it would have been more realistic to take $60.00 into the store at the beginning of the month and eat only what you could buy with it for a month. It could be done--but it wouldn't be fun.

It would be a lot more pleasant than the way my grandparents ate during the dustbowl one winter though. Grandpa said they survived on cornbread and beans, buttermilk,(but not butter or milk, they sold that) and good old turnip greens. They went without potatoes for most of the winter until a relief team came to town and handed out bags of them. In the top of the bag Grandpa found a note from a woman up north asking the recepient to write a letter to her if they really needed them. He would have been glad to do it, they really did need them, if only she had included a stamped envelope. So listening to my Grandparents' stories of the suffering they endured colors my perspective. Most of the problem in America is lack of education. And if even a couple schoolteachers have no more sense than those two about how to eat on the cheap, what chance do others have of figuring it out?

Actually their diet incorporated the staple foods of virtually the whole world. Corn and beans from North America, potatoes from South America, wheat and oats from Europe, rice from the Orient, peanuts from Africa. The possibility of doing that is very recent in the history of the world's food supply. And fresh vegetables in the middle of the winter? That is even more recent.We are blessed, blessed, blessed. Ok, now I really am going to shut up.

Well, I went to the blog and read it and I get the point now.

People with really low incomes don't often have access to stores where they can get things in bulk. Like someone said, they shop wherever they can get to because they don't have transportation. Maybe it's only a Quik-Trip or a Dollar Store.

I, too, get in behind people spending food stamps at the store and they make a lot of unwise choices. They'll get cuts of meat that are too expensive, buy snack foods and non-foods. And I can truthfully tell you that there are some people who will find a way to turn those food stamp credits into dollars, even if it is fifty cents on the dollar, so that they can buy beer and cigarettes with it. Sadly, most of those who do this have little children who will not have milk and some of the other things they need because daddy or momma have to have their beer and cigarettes. I'm not making a blanket statement, but I have seen it. When people see this, they lose compassion for all people and say, "Well, see, that's why they never have anything..." so I think those who do this do a number on themselves as well as all the others who are in their same situation.

But truly, the food buying habits of people is mainly just out of misinformation or lack of knowledge about what is and is not good for you. I wish that there would be a series of classes that were mandatory for anyone receiving food stamps: how to stretch your food dollar; which foods are more nutritious than others; how to cook, make sprouts and bake bread and how to comparison shop, etc., etc.

The point was made that some people do not have facilities in which to cook or storage for more than a few days' worth of food -- maybe they've had their utilities cut off or they're living in their car. It happens more than we, so comfortable in our homes, want to believe.

My FIL was a sharecropper. Sometimes they lived on places where there were orchards and there would be room for a garden. MIL canned everything she could get her hands on. It was like gold. There were 11 children, and they all worked in the garden. If they were lucky, they'd have room to keep a cow and some chickens. The boys all hunted for rabbit and squirrel. They picked wild greens and blackberries. One time, my SIL told me they were all about to starve to death when FIL stole a pig and butchered it. My MIL told me one year they had to move onto another farm too late in the season to plant a garden. The farm grew nothing but soybeans. I was just flabbergasted. When I asked how they lived that year, MIL replied, nodding her head, "I learned how to fix soybeans every way there was."

A major factor for living well on a lower income, or any income, for that matter, is to know how to cook. This is amply demonstrated by Ilene's comments, directly above. Not many of today's youth have learned this skill. Our son, in veterinary school, tells us that his friends will work and study until they're about to drop from hunger and weariness, and then they'll make a rush on a restaurant. He's become the "resident chef," always urging them by saying something like: "Let's go to my place, I can fix some eggs, etc." Many of those on food stamps lack the skills an knowledge to prepare economical meals.

Also, as some posts, like Ilene's demonstrate, it's important to have an adaptable palate. Some folks, even when they complain that they are going without, will turn up their noses on perfectly good food.

Perhaps if one made a really good study of it, they could live well as a vegan and be economical. But my take on the larger part of that movement is that one has to come from affluent America in order to follow it and be well nourished.

George

George, great to hear from you. And of course, your family would have experience with captured sourdough. I never did try air capturing, just starting with a single yeast packet. And am going to start up another one I think.

Ilene, I so agree that there needs to be more education not just for people on foodstamps, but for everyone, concerning both nutrition and cooking. In our family I taught all my children to cook. Our oldest son got so into it that he actually considered becoming a chef, but decided it was more fun as a hobby. He still regularly emails me exotic recipes.

The vegan lifestyle is, I believe, a modern invention. In his excellent book, Fats that Kill, Fats that Heal, Udo Erasmus Ph. D claims that primitive cultures that ate mostly vegan diets got enough vitamin B12 from the weevils that got into their grain, and so ground into flour. B12 is only available from animal sources. (George, do you know if yeast produces B12 as it ferments wheat dough? I know it does increase the other B vits in bread dough.)I believe it was the noted vegetarian, George Bernard Shaw who when seen eating beef liver, said, "It's medicine." He had become B12 deficient and ordered to take liver.

So that makes me think that the couple should have been more concerned with B12 than Vit C. There was no source of B12 in the diet they used.

And yes adaptability is so crucial. That's something else that our family is good at. I was at a large family reunion dinner years ago when someone looked at a bowl of Tabouli and said, "what's that?" "It's something Richard brought." (my brother) "Should have known, but I think I'll pass."

For the first six months after my three cancer surgeries, I ate vegan (and only organic food if I could find it) to give my body the maximum nutrition possible for healing, and it was very expensive. And, bless their hearts, my dear husband and dear son ate organic vegan meals with me. (We all still roll our eyes and laugh about some of the things we ate during that time frame!) I am sure that when the two of them were not with me, they probably ate normally....so I am guessing hamburger and pizza....but at home, they ate whatever I prepared and did it willingly and cheerfully.

Six months later, when we had calmed down and decided I really was not going to die of the cancer (and, 9 years later, here I am!), we relaxed and gave up the vegan diet, although I still prefer to eat food that is raised naturally and organically. We do eat much more healthily, though, to this day. It was right after the "vegan months" but while still buying organic groceries that we discovered free-range chickens. Oh, man, a chicken that actually tasted like the chicken my grandmother and mother used to prepare! It is sad that so much of today's commercially-raised meat bears no resemblance, flavor-wise, to small farm-raised meat.

I think a lot of people don't cook because they never really learned how. (And, by use of the term "cook", I don't really mean opening up a box of macaroni and cheese and following the instructions.) My sister wasted tons of money eating fast food daily until she finally learned, in her mid- to late-30s, how to cook healthy, wholesome meals. Her daughter, who prepared much of the meal for our pre-Christmas gathering at their house on the 23rd, is a great cook at the age of 20 because she learned early on, after she became an adult and had to support herself, that living on fast food and convenience foods is not the best thing.....nutritionally or economically. She put together a great meal and I was so proud of her.

We've learned to adapt and add more foods from more cultures to our diet. I love couscous and DS loves sushi and hummus. Still, I'm a southern girl, so most of our favorite meals taste like something out of a Paula Deen cookbook because that's the way I grew up cooking. Well, as a concession to cooking healthier, we fry less and grill more....and use less butter.

Dawn

Dorothy, the most specific I can be, is that yeast increases some sort of vitamin B in bread. But that's all I know. Everyone else in my household knows nutrition better than do I :)

I didn't know that the term was "capture." But it is rather easy. Just take a cup of milk and let it sour for a day or two. Then mix in one cup of flour. Let it stand, occasionally breaking the surface crust by stirring. Eventually you'll notice bubbles forming. When you know that it's not just wishful/hopeful thinking, and there really are bubbles forming, then add another cup of flour and enough water or milk to bring the batter to the point that it is not doughy, but it is about as thick as, say, cornbread batter when you pour it into the pan. Let this sit. Inside of a couple hours you should see lots of bubbling. From here you treat it just like your other yeast culture.

I've captured sourdough as quickly as in one day. But during the dead of winter it has taken up to three days.

I have no sisters and my mom insisted that her sons learn everything that had to be done in the home (including cooking). My dad loved/still loves to bake and cook. So I had a good example. Jerreth and I met, while at Moody Bible Institute, in Chicago. One of the things that we noticed, when we first met, was that we both had the same interests. I was baking with sourdough (just learning) and she had a fantastic sourdough cookbook, which was out of print :)

Our son, at first seemed to adopt the Mexican stereotyped male ideal of not cooking or cleaning, etc. But we insisted that he learn. Jerreth is the consummate teacher. She actually built that kind of stuff into the kids' schooling. Anyway, when he got out on his own, he was shocked to discover that most people hardly eat breakfast, and that our family was rather unique in the home cooked meals that we ate. So, he started cooking.

I've always told the kids that good cooking will make the difference between happiness and health and the opposite. True, there is more to these things than just good food. But it is very important.

George

OK, George, I'm inspired. I think I'll try it. I have both certified raw milk from the dairy in Claremore, and pasturized. Which should I use? When I make yogurt, I use pasturized and reheat it to 160 because the directions on the starter say to, but what would be best for starting sourdough?

I read an article called "slow bread" several years ago in which a method of breadmaking was described in which the dough was allowed to raise for two days. The advantages were said to be that the proteins were so predigested by the fermentation process that it was much more bioavailable and less likely to cause allergic reaction. Wish I still had that article.

I have never done it with raw milk. I'd recommend pasteurized, since I know it works. Let me know how it goes for you.

Oh, I also have a question for you, Dorothy, or anyone else who might know. I fondly remember eating lots of Jerusalem Artichokes in my youth. They never gave me any digestion problems. This year I grew them for the first time in my adult life. They produced very well. I baked some on Thanksgiving and they were delicious. But WOW! I had problems with bloating and gas! I had drunk quite a bit of apple cider that day, trying to use it before it turned, so I thought that was the problem. But last week I baked another batch of Jerusalem Artichokes and ate one (almost fist sized). Again, I had problems, so much so, that it kept me up at night.

Is this normal? Is there something one can do to prevent this? I'm thinking I may not want to grow them if this is what they will do to me.

I don't believe I got anyone else to eat more than a bite or two, so I don't have a way to compare with another person. After my experience, I'm sure I won't be able to get anyone else to try them :) i.e. "Here, would you try this? I think it may be what gave me a stomach ache...!"

I'm suspecting that my system has changed since my teens. I know, when I was a boy, I would often pick cucumbers (any type(, right out of the patch and eat them, skin and all. I loved them and they did me know harm. By the time I was in my twenties I had to skin them. By the time I was in my 30s I could only handle peeled burpless cukes. By the time I was in my 40s, I had to scratch cucumbers from my diet. So, I wonder if this might not be a similar situation.

I had high hopes of producing LOTS of Jerusalem Artichokes to take the place of potatoes.

Thanks!

George

If you really want to get a good idea of how much money a garden saves you just go to the grocery store and compare the price of what you just grown and are eating. You will be surprised!!

I know that a lot of people think I'm odd because I cook just about everything from scratch. Even working full time and my hours being late, I still cook from scratch. There are too many non-nutritious preservatives in most foods. My kids are ADHD and we are careful in what we eat. Packaged meals with the preservatives seem to worsen their ADHD.

Kathy- More later. Running to work!

George,

I think the reason the Jerusalem artichokes are giving your digestive system trouble is that they contain starch in the forum of inulin which is a hard-to-digest form of starch. Also, they are very high is potassium, and that can make them an unhealthy choice for anyone who needs to be on a low-potassium diet, like people with kidney issues, for example. They say (and I don't know if this is true because the inulin doesn't bother me) that you can make your body adjust to the inulin by eating only small amounts of Jerusalem artichokes at first, and gradually increasing the amount you eat so that your body develops the ability to digest the inulin.

River, I agree and, if you grow organically as some of us do, compare your home-grown produce not to the price of conventionally-raised produce, but to the price of organic produce, and you'll really see how much you're saving.

We were in a Whole Foods grocery store a month or two ago and they had organically-grown heirloom tomatoes that look very similar (maybe not exact same varieties but very close) to the ones I grow. They were from 4.95 to 6.95 a pound and I was thinking of the 5-gallon-bucketfuls that I harvest several times a week during the growing season and trying to calculate in my head just how much one of those full buckets would cost at Whole Foods.

And, how about peppers? You and I raise a LOT of peppers. Try to imagine how much your pepper crop this year would have cost at the grocery store?

Dawn

George,
Dr. Oz made another appearance on Oprah recently. He mentioned that as we get older we don't produce enough of the enzymes we need for proper digestion. He said the enzymes can be replaced in the form of supplements. Sorry I don't have the details.

I'll be making the same apology to our local compounding pharmacist/herbalist. I mentioned this story to my husband last night and he told me to go see Johnny post haste. (Johnny being the pharmacist!) Hubby claims he's spending to much time visiting the other Johnny. :^)

George, I haven't eaten Jerusalem artichokes for years although there are still a few plants, choked with grass in the corner of the garden. Between the grass and the gophers we have almost lost our patch so that we haven't even dug it for years. And I never cooked them, but always just sliced them into salads like radishes. I like the crunch.

And I do imagine it is the inulin that is responsible. They are said to be good for diabetics because the inulin doesn't absorb well and convert to sugar. But maybe it is feeding your gut flora, which is causing the problem.

I have been using digestive enzymes sporadically for many years, and have used several brands, but for the last few years have used a Rexall product which WalMart carries. The last bottle I bought has Acidophilus in it, but I make homemade yogurt with a starter that I get at the health food store (Oasis in Tahlequah carries it) It's called Yogourmet and has 3 strains of probiotic--no bifidus unfortunately. I have also used one called Flora Source which had 14 strains and made the best yogurt I ever tasted until they added two more strains and then it made the bitterest yogurt I ever tasted.

Kathy, do you supplement your kids with omega 3 essential fatty acids? That helped my son when he was a learning impaired child. I also used lecithen and yogurt, in addition to limiting artificial colorings, flavorings, preservatives--you know the routine. When he got to be an adult eating on his own, he ate a very unhealthy diet and gained 50 lbs, got disgusted with himself and went back on a better diet, dropped soda, started exercising and lost it in 6 months.

River, many years ago, in response to a skeptical acquaintance who said that gardening wasn't cost effective, I kept careful records for one season to prove that it was. Now that I raise even more and spend even less--raising my own seedlings and being organic--I think I will do it again.

Well, last night I tried boiling a large Jerusalem Artichoke. I ate it about 1 1/2 hours before bedtime and was delighted to experience no adverse consequences at all. Not only did I boil it, but I even changed the water once and boiled it a bit longer. It remained firm, not like the mushy ones I remember from my youth. It tasted WONDERFUL! So I'll repeat that a couple times and if it still works out, I'm going to really enjoy Jerusalem Artichokes! Our little patch produced prodigiously and I don't remember such large roots as it consistently gives. These are really nice. Thanks for the input. Interestingly, this morning, I looked in the pot with the second batch of water, from boiling that JA, the water was bright green!

Normally we raise and consume kefir, which I assume would help considerably with digestion. But while the goats are dry, I put our culture in cold storage. Don't care to use the milk if we're not producing it ourselves.

Two out of three of our children had learning disabilities (and I mean, they were documented by several psychologists). I don't know if there is a connection, but two of the three (just not the same two) have really bad reactions to some preservatives and colorings. My wife also has some problems with them. Cooking from scratch not only helps us to avoid those problems, it also enables us to eat better, and that, for less.

We are still eating tomatoes left over from the 2008 growing season, and "fresh" on the shelf. This is wonderful. Also, I have all sorts of "fresh" peppers hanging in one of our no freeze sheds. We use them too. From the 2007 growing season I used my last "fresh pepper," from the shed, at the end of March. Both of these crops are big money savers, if one uses them.

We are also enjoying frequent dishes of home grown, home made corn bread. Corn, for meal, is really a very practical crop. We find it very practical.

George

Here is a link that might be useful: Corn for Meal & Grits

Mulberry, yes, they eat lots of fish- mackrel, salmon and tuna. I use to to make various dishes :) And we've found that melatonin helps a lot too. I came across some research on using it for ADHD children when I was about to throw in the towel and put my youngest son on a prescription. I really didn't want to, but he's 9 now and was not able to get a handle on it with behavior modification/control and diet control. My older children were able to get a handle on it and learn to focus it, but Devin was still having a LOT of trouble and it was really affecting school. You know how it is, it's harder when they get further in the grades when they can't control the ADHD and start getting behind because they can't focus. A friend told me about the research and knowing melatonin is an herbal and would have much fewer side effects than the prescriptions, I decided to tell his doctor we'd hold off a while longer and give this a try, which he disapproved of, of course. He's not a fan of herbal medicine and that was my final straw and I found a new doctor. Got tired of being told that herbal medicine doesn't work and I was being neglectful of my children in wanting to keep things as natural as possible. Anyway, it works wonders! I've been able to find two different dosages. The MG does helps them actually shut off at night and sleep. They don't sleep walk or talk any more, don't toss and turn as hard and wake more rested and less cranky. The MCG dose slows them down just enough to be able to concentrate during the day. They take the MCG dose twice a day, first thing in the morning and in the afternoon. The MCG dose doesn't make them sleepy, just slows them down a little. The MG dose does make them sleepy, which is good because that's what I want it to do.

Devin's teacher has been able to tell a HUGE difference as well. She knows when he's missed taking it before school within minutes of him getting into the classroom. I'm hoping to be able to get the new doctor I'm still looking for to give us a prescription so that he can actually take the afternoon dose at school. We've noticed it starts wearing off about 1-2 pm and he starts losing focus again and it's harder for him to complete his work in the afternoons. It's really been wonderful not having to put him on something with so many side effects. We've not noticed any ill effects with it at all.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread :) But growing our own veggies is part of my kids' "medical" routine because we avoid problems with chemicals as well as keeping food bills lower.

Kathy

Kathy,

I don't think you "hijacked" the thread....I just think the thread evolved. : )

I do think nutrition is important in helping people deal with many different challenges in their lives, and not just ADHD. When our son was younger, we were friends with a family in Fort Worth in the early- to mid-90s that had 2 sons with autism. Back then, autism didn't get nearly as much media attention as it does now, and this family really struggled to find ways to help their sons. They did a lot of nutritional supplements and followed a specific diet and it seemed to help their boys a lot. Many of the things they were "experimenting with " (and, of course, their doctor was not supportive at all) are now used by many families who have children with autism, but back then they really were on their own and searching for answers.

And, since many of us grow edible crops in our yards and gardens, it is impossible to discuss gardening without discussing our crops and how we prepare them, store them, etc. Also, you never know when another parent who is new to gardening will read what you've written and decide to try to grow organic foods to help their own families. As our son and his friends always say, "it's all good". I think that we are flexible enough here to morph from topic to topic. Some of our longest and most useful threads start out on one topic and then morph or evolve as we go from one thing to another to another.

Dawn

I occasional use mackeral, but find that NONE of my friends have ever tried it. I would be interested in how you prepare it. I only have a couple of ways so would be interested in your ideas.

I've used mackeral in any way that I use canned tuna or salmon.
Mackeral sandwich--mix in mayo and a little mustard, chopped pickles and chopped raw onion. I especially like this on rye bread.

mackeral patties--mix an egg or two with the fish, crumble in some kind of breading--quick oats, crumbled crackers or corn flakes or dried bread crumbs--and a bit of chopped onion. Fry in small amount of olive oil in skillet.

I also like mackeral straight out of the can crumbled into salads in the summer. I also eat tuna, salmon or sardines this way.

mackeral "lox"--mix cream cheese and a few drops of smoke flavoring into the fish. This is not quite as good as salmon but it's passable. Serve on a toasted whole wheat bagel

A few years ago one of my great uncles had a heart attack. Someone told him that mackeral would be good for him and thereafter he ate 1/2 a can of mackeral with his lunch every day, straight from the can. I don't like it that well. He lived several more years though.

My children always said that I never failed to sneak in a little nutrition anyway I could. Their friends all loved my donuts and cinnamon rolls and they were always made with half of the flour being white and the other half freshly ground whole wheat.

I have used mackeral in patties, but the way I got my children to eat it was in a little thing I called "Holy Mackeral" and they still laugh about it today. I would make it up with eggs, onions, etc like I was going to cook it in patties but instead I wrapped it around a cube of cheese, then rolled it in instant potatoes and deep fryed it. Then it is finger food. The potatoes get very crusty and the cheese melts into the mackeral leaving a whole in the center, thus..holy mackeral. I am not big on using instant potatoes, but they do make nice breading on a few things.

I used to take a can of water-pack tuna to work and eat it for lunch every day, right out of the can. Some of the guys used to tease me about eating "cat food". LOL But I was getting lots better nutrition they they were with those big old greasy hamburgers they went out for, plus it was a fraction of the cost and the calories! I also would hard-boil five hard-boiled eggs on Monday morning and that would allow me one a day all week. I'd have that for my mid-morning snack, with a few pretzels, while everyone else was buying Ho-Ho's out of the vending machine. BTW, it seems a lot of people are having problems peeling eggs. There are all kinds of gadgets being sold but really, all you have to do is put your eggs gently into the water AFTER it has gotten hot -- but not boiling yet. Then, after they're done, the shells slip off easily every time.

I may have mentioned this before and if so, please forgive me, but I read an article in the paper a few years back about this man who had died and left a fortune but had no family. He was a groundskeeper/janitor at a large college, lived in a house on the grounds, provided to him by the college, so he paid no rent (except in lower pay, I'm sure). He lived a frugal life. Every morning, he would set a can of beans on his gas cookstove, where the pilot light would slowly warm it. When he came in for lunch, he would open the can and eat. The article didn't say what he did for breakfast or supper, but I imagine it was something just as simple. He didn't date, didn't go to night clubs, but lived simply. Had a TV, I think they said. Everyone was so amazed that he had amassed so much money over his lifetime on his meager salary. But that's what happens when you break out of this cycle that we Americans have gotten into because of the advertising that we are constantly bombarded with, from cradle to grave. It's like being brain-washed, to believe we have to have STUFF.

GREAT information in this thread! I'd like to weigh in on the original topic... if that's okay!

I also read about the two schoolteachers and their experiment... and honestly thought they did pretty well for their first time buying cheap. Yep, Tang is pretty nasty stuff, but that's where their minds went first when they thought "vitamin c". MOST people on foodstamps need education on how to buy. I know, because we were on foodstamps for three years, just recently worked our way off of them! (YAY US!) We're very lucky in this area. For those of us who were on W.I.C. too, there's a GREAT nutritionist on call at the local clinic who does WONDERFUL talks and cooking classes. She's been an inspiration to me, and I still email her... asking her for ideas and thoughts on sneaking in the good stuff for my picky boys! The problem is most people on foodstamps do not have the money for "feel good" items, so they use food as an escape. They'd rather buy a box of ho ho's... LOL! I was more nutritionally minded, being as their is heart disease and diabetes in my family and my husbands... but not all people will think this way. The SAD part about it is in Arkansas you can buy plants on your foodstamps! YES! Not many people take advantage of that tho... either from lack of knowledge or bad eating habits themselves.

I think I've found a good cause to be an activist about. LOL! Poor Folk Gardening!

Somebody PLEASE tell me how to grow sprouts easily? I've been wanting to try this for ages... just can't find the proper information!

Beth

Beth, I've attached a link that I found.

Congratulations on getting off the foodstamp program. Many people are never able to. You show a lot of initiative and resolve! I'm so glad you were able to hook up with that nutritionist. You can get valuable information that will help you take care of yourself and your family all your life. When I was a child, my mother stayed home with us. I cannot say she didn't work, because that woman worked hard! She grew a big garden, canned the surplus, baked all our bread, and, before we moved to town she milked cows, made cottage cheese, raised rabbits, geese and chickens and tended a small fruit orchard. She was a dynamo, but she was doing all she could to make our family self-supporting. The only problem was that she and my dad were not good at financial planning, they didn't pace themselves and they had a bad year and got the idea that they couldn't make a living on that farm. So my dad became a driller on an oil rig that moved from KS to OK and that's how we ended up in town. It didn't have to be.

Most people on foodstamps don't have room to grow a garden. When times get hard, lots of folks say they're going to cut costs by growing a garden. But it winds up being more expensive at the beginning. You need tools and seeds and other stuff. New gardeners can 'garden on the cheap' by pacing themselves. Collect amendments (leaves and grass clippings are the easiest to get, I think, and manure of some kind will help a lot if you can get it), buy a good shovel and dig the amendments into the soil. Maybe start with one bed. Wait till you can get seeds on clearance and start with them. In fact, I heard somewhere that you can get seeds from the County Extension office. Those wire tomato cages are OK to start with. I use the regular-sized ones to support my bell pepper plants and I see some places have bigger ones that might work for tomatoes. The regular-sized ones are just too small for a good healthy tomato plant. But my MIL, when she grew tomatoes, used bamboo that grew on her place, and formed a big 'teepee' over each plant. For awhile, I made round cages, about 2' across, out of some old fencing I found. They worked great, but were hard to store in the winter. Now I use cages made out of PVC pipe. They were expensive to make, though, and I'm not totally happy with the way they let the tomato plant grow outside of its boundaries so quickly.

You sound like you'd make a good activist! LOL But really, teach what you learn to a friend. Or several friends. Riches can be taken from you in an instant, but knowledge is with you till you get Alzheimer's -- or a knock on the head! LOL -- Ilene

Here is a link that might be useful: How to grow sprouts

Growing sprouts - I guess there are as many ways to grow sprouts as there are to garden and I almost agree with the above article. This is what works best for me.

I have three plastic lids that fit a wide mouth canning jar. They are three different colors and have different sizes of grid in the lid. If I am doing alfalfa seeds or something small I start with the one with small holes and after they have grown I switch to the next size up to allow the seed hull to wash out when rinsing. The set of three should cost about five dollars or so and you should be able to find them at any health food store or food store where sprouting seeds are sold or "foodies" shop.

Besides not taking a lot of space to store they offer the size difference for different size seeds, and one more thing that I think is important. They have little small projections around the top of the lid.

Like the article says, I soak the seeds overnight in lukewarm water with the jar upright on the counter. The next day, I rinse off the water, several times, and then turn the jar upside down on a small plate. The small projections on the lids hold the lid a 1/4 inch or so off of the saucer and allow the water to drain. Even then you will have to dump the saucer again after the final water drains out. I keep the jar by my sink so that I remember to rinse it several times a day. I think it is important for the seeds to drain, rather than sit in the water.

When the seeds are larger, I will change to a larger size lid if needed. However, some sprouts are very small and can slide through small holes, so be careful. Once the seeds have sprouted and are a substantial size, I move them to the window where they can get the light required to make them turn green. Next time I rinse, I shake them up a bit and turn the jar so another side is exposed to the light source.

When they are ready to eat, I put a real lid on them in the refrigerator until I use them up. My husband would rather have alfalfa sprouts than lettuce in a salad. We also like the spicy salad mixes that have radish and other things mixed in with the alfalfa. You can sprout several beans, wheat, etc.

Warnings: Don't put too many in the jar, because they are going to grow A LOT. I always drain ALL of the water off between rinsings. Don't expect your family to love, love, love, every kind you try because some things are not that great and this may be a new taste for them. Don't wait until it is something they HAVE to eat to survive before you expose them to it.

I am attaching a picture of a lid that shows what I am talking about, but I think you will find a set at your local health food store pretty cheap.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sample of Sprouting Lid

I too bought the plastic lids years ago, very handy. I also have a steamer insert to one of my stainless steel pans that has holes that are just the right size to sprout lentils and mung beans. I soak them overnight in the solid pan then dump them into the steamer insert the next morning and put the lid on. I recently sprouted garbanzos this way, but only let the sprouts get as long as the beans, then I cooked them and made hummus, which we love.

I used to sprout wheat and add sprouted wheat to my homemade bread. I also made a skillet meal with sprouted wheat. I let the sprouts get only about as long as the seed, then I fried hamburger and onion in cast iron skillet, and when they were just cooked through, added the wheat and a bit of water. I seasoned it with salt, pepper and ground sage and let it cook until the wheat was tender. Then I added a can of sliced musrooms and let them heat through. Our family liked it.

I like to eat sunflower seed just barely sprouted, within 24-36 hours of setting them to soak. When I did that regularly, my skin was so soft and smooth.

I know a lot of people don't have room for a garden, but a lot of people have room and don't grow one. When I was a child we lived in a rented house with a back yard. My dad a farm raised boy, bought a shovel, a hoe and a rake, nothing more. He started in March digging up that back yard manually and ended in May. He planted cool weather crops as soon as he had a section dug and ended with the hot weather stuff over two months later. If anybody wants to learn how to garden or even just how to grow a 1/2 dozen tomatoes in a flower bed, this site is the place to do it.

I was just talking to a friend earlier today about sprouted wheat. She uses Prairie Gold which is a white wheat and says they love it for salads. I had to laugh because I am not wild about sprouted wheat or taboli but I love wheat almost any other way. I have not tried sprouting Prairie Gold but think I may buy a little just to try.

I was discussing wheat with a lady from Kansas that uses "grainlady" as her name and posts frequently on the cooking forum. She is also noticing that it is getting much harder to find wheat and other grains and especially at a reasonable price. I don't think the farmer is making the extra money, but someone sure is. I also know a lot of grain is exported. If you see me cutting a whole in my lawn and planting wheat you will know why. I use a lot of wheat.

Mostly I don't eat these foods because of the savings, but because of the taste and nutrition. It is just what we happen to like.

A few more ways to save on food cost:

Buy in bulk, but don't use in bulk. (Buy a large pack of ground beef and crumble and cook it all with salt, pepper, and onions if you like them. Then break it into smaller packs and freeze. The dish that needs 3/4 of a pound will get only that much instead of that 1 and a half pound pack you have in the fridge, etc.)

Practice portion control. Even if you cook extra, put it away BEFORE the meal so it is known what a portion is. For instance, I cooked four small steaks on the grill, but we ate one each and the other two waited in the refrigerator two days to be sliced and used in a noodle dish. Sometimes it would have be put in a mustard sauce and kept overnight for a steak salad. Especially good dish for Sundays at our house when we come in hungry but try to keep cooking to a minumum effort.

Eat things in season. Grow what you can, but for the things you buy, the in season things will be priced better. I rarely buy tomato for salad in the winter, because they are expensive and they taste like cardboard. I grew lettuce, spinach, and mustard greens until the week before Christmas. One of my favorite salads in winter is more of a slaw, but we call it salad. It is napa cabbage, sliced celery, and Grannie Smith Apple. I cube the apple and drop into my favorite vinigrette dressing (made with white vinegar), to keep the apple from turning dark, then pour dressing and apple into the cabbage and celery and mix. Nice fresh, light salad.

Tonight's salad was a slad plate with lettuce leaves, then topped with a large canned pear half, with a teaspoon of mayonaise in the hole and cheddar cheese over the top. My husband calls it "lunchroom" salad because we both remember it from our childhood. I don't even like mayonaise, but I think that little dab with the pear taste good.

I am big on homemade bread and have been making a very simple one this week from a new book called "Artisian Bread in 5 Minutes a Day". It is a simple one (which of course I modify a bit, this week with the addition of rye) and keep the dough in the refrigerator. Each day you just take off what you want and bake. They say it keeps 10 days, but I will probably never know. I don't have the book, but did watch their video on line.

We are both too fat but it isn't because we don't eat good food. It is because we eat too much good food, so this year we are on strict portion control at our house. LOL

My husband says he only likes alfalfa sprouts now... who knew? I'm going to our LITTLE health food store this weekend to see what I can see about it... will look for those lids! Thanks guys!

I buy in bulk, but don't cook in bulk. I'm rationing out our food little by little! LOL... I do like to work on portion control too. Kinda hard with a ravenous husband and fifteen year old son... but I do the best I can! I'm getting VERY good at stretching out a meal! It's a challenge to me... taking one chicken and making it into three meals! LOL... my idea of FUN! I need to get out more....

On the poor folks gardening thing. I do realize that not everyone's gonna have room to plant a garden, but there's LOTS of lower income housing in my town, houses... I'm gonna start talking to people I know and see if we can do community type gardens! We take care of rental properties and I'm going to talk to our renters first... see if this is something fun we can all do! I was planning on using one of the backyards for extra gardening space anyway! Who knows, I might be starting a "thing" here... :).

Soonergrandmom,
Would you link the video for your artisian bread here? I'm a bread making novice and would LOVE to have a simple recipe. I'm kinda nervous about making it myself... I've only done about three loaves in my lifetime and ended up with bread hard enough to call a BRICK. lol...

Beth, While you are makeing one chicken stretch to three meals for four people, don't forget the bones. If you have a crockpot you can save all your bones and make bone broth. Eggshells can also go into this broth. Modern Americans consider bones and eggshells waste instead of the calcium/protein arthritis/osteoporosis preventing resource that they are. (I mix in beef bones as well, but we know the source of our farmraised beef. I read somewhere awhile back that beef bones were a potential risk for madcow disease.) A good broth is just the thing to cook homemade egg noodles in. And egg noodles are a snap to make, having only flour (I use 2 cups whole wheat and 1 cup white) eggs, a little melted butter and a pinch of salt. Mix up a stiffish dough, roll out and cut into strips and drop into boiling broth. This is a complete protein meal--between the broth and the eggs--without meat.

Oh I hope you can get a community garden growing. I saw the ones in Denver 13 years ago. It is incredible how much food can be raised in a little spot. Their allotments were only 25X25 ft and they were crammed full. Community gardens like farmer's markets always seem to thrive in tight economies.

I have just recently had to buy a food item for the first time since last May. The last of our garden raised potatoes is gone and I am glad that they dissapeared just at the time that the local groceries in town engaged in a "potato price war." I got 50 pounds of potatoes for a little over half the price they would have been a month ago. That's another way to eat on the cheap--buy long storing produce when it's cheap and store it in a freeze-proof outbuilding. Mine currently holds potatoes, sweet potatoes, apples, and butternut squash (I raised the squash.) Next on my wish list after a greenhouse is a rootcellar/stormshelter. Well Happy (Cheap but Nutritious) eating to all.

Beth, you GO, girl! You could teach container gardening for those who don't have garden space. I grew all my bell peppers in some metal trash baskets I'd bought at a thrift store for $1 each, last year and they did well. I have chopped peppers in my freezer now.

I can understand your predicament having a 15YO in the house. My DGS is a Sr. in high school and he just inhales food. He is not overweight. I make sure I have things for him to snack on. A few days ago I made pumpkin moon pies and he ate the last one last night. I don't buy chips any more, unless I'm going to make something that calls for them as an ingredient or an accompanyment (Frito chili pie, for instance) and then I have to hide them or he will eat an entire bag at one time. With teenagers, portion control is hard if not impossible. They have huge appetites.

Carol, there is a food co-op in OK that has several drop-off sites in different areas of Oklahoma, but almost everything is more expensive than what you'd pay for something similar in the grocery stores. Of course most of it is organically grown and probably lots better for you. I looked over their price lists and I didn't find anything I might consider a "cheap" price, but the wheat was reasonable as compared to prices quoted me by my local health food store, and there was a decent deal on pecans. However I have plenty of pecans in my freezer that were free. Since you have to pay an annual membership fee, and I would have to drive to Owasso to pick it up, and you have to pay a transportation cost of 8%, it didn't seem very feasible to me. I met up with the owner of a local bakery that belongs to the co-op and she offered to order a couple of tubs for me. I pay her what the tubs cost, plus the transportation fee, but this way I don't have to belong to the co-op and I don't have to travel to Owasso. If you want the link to the co-op I'll be glad to provide it. I've linked a website that had the NEXT lowest price on wheat, and they have white wheat berries, which some people like better than the red wheat berries that are what you'd get in Oklahoma. By price I mean the price for their product, which is pretty low, and then the shipping cost, which is as much as the cost of the product. There are a couple of wheat producers in Oklahoma that I found, but they are about a three hour's drive from me and their prices are a lot higher than what Grainlady pays for her wheat. Living right in the middle of it as she does, she doesn't have to pay shipping. This is sure a testimony for making the most of what is grown locally. Grainlady is a very good resource. She patiently responds to the same questions being asked over and over again on the forums where she posts.

Dorothy, I have one of those steamer pans, too! I never thought of using them as seed sprouters. That would be great for the bigger seeds. I use a plain old wide mouth quart canning jar with a piece of cheesecloth secured onto the opening by the usual metal screw band, without the flat. But mung beans get pretty crowded in there. I bought some mixed lentils and I'm sprouting them now. I love sprouts on sandwiches instead of lettuce. I have one of those husbands who thinks salad is not salad without tomatoes. Since he drowns it in bottled Thousand Island, I hardly see how he tastes any of it. I've tried making Thousand Island at home and I made one that I thought was absolutely delish, but he informed me he "didn't care for it". Although he will eat the little dish of salad he gets with his meal in a restaurant that is nothing but shredded lettuce and a little red cabbage, and probably the dressing is something they make from scratch. So I don't get it and sometimes he really takes the fun out of cooking. I don't always cater to his preferences though or we'd have nothing but fried meat and potatoes every meal. Ugh! I really like salads with chopped apples, some onion, shredded red or green cabbage, carrot and celery. Let's just say when I make it that I have no problems with portion control where DH is concerned. I bet sprouts would be good in that too. Well, at least added to mine. I don't know how or when a tomato got paired up with lettuce, since they don't grow in the same seasons. I like my salad with just lemon juice, salt and pepper and maybe a few sunflower seeds. DGS likes Ranch dressing and he doesn't care if it's bottled or home-made.

I use a bread machine to mix my dough. I buy bread machines at garage sales. Usually I pick them up for $5 or $10, and sometimes they haven't even been used. Sometimes I run two at the same time. I've given bread machines to my grown kids and to friends. It's so easy, just dump all the ingredients in, put the machine on dough cycle and go off and do something else till it beeps. I sometimes will let mine rise in the machine, although Grainlady doesn't like to. Once in awhile I will have made too big a batch and it will want to overrise so I try to take it out of the bread machine right after it's done mixing and let it rise in my dough pan. My mother baked every week, and she had a huge tupperware bowl that she always used. Before Tupperware came out, she just put it in a greased bowl with a towel over it. I use an antique metal dough pan with a lid that I bought during my "antiqueing days". I have a rule now that things need to do double duty, not just be something on a shelf to look at, collecting dust. Oh, and I buy my yeast a pound at a time at the health food store. It's lots cheaper and fresher. When I lived in Indiana, I bought my yeast from a bakery. I keep about a cup of it in a jar in the refrigerator and the rest stays in the freezer till I need to refill the jar.

Here is a link that might be useful: Heartland Mill

southerngardenchick - Bread is so easy to make and there are so many wonderful types and tastes to try. This one is a "no knead" method, which a lot of mine are since I'm not big on kneading. LOL There are a number of video's on-line showing this receipe so if you Google "Artisian Bread in 5 minutes" you will find more than one. I found the one below just today, and it was one I hadn't seen before. So you might want to watch more than one.

If I were going to make a loaf of bread for making sandwiches, this would not be the loaf I would make. This is a good dough for making a loaf that you might serve with dinner, like you would use french bread. The thing that makes it nice is the fact that it is easy and you always have the ingredients on hand, if you keep yeast. The bread is only
1 1/2 tablespoons of yeast
1 1/2 tablespoons of salt
3 cups of lukewarm water
6 1/2 cups of all purpose flour

Let it rise 2 hours on the counter. Use what you want and put the rest in the refrigerator.

So you can see this really fits the catagory of this thread. This dough is very wet when mixed, but some of that will change as it ages, but it is still a little thinner that many bread doughs.

The first time I made it I did it exactly like he did with cornmeal on a peel, then I cooked it on a cooking stone which had already gotten hot in the oven. After one time of getting cornmeal in my oven during the transsfer, I went back to my normal way of letting it rise on parchment paper, then just picking up the paper and transferring it to the stone. The stone is not a necessity but I like the good crusty bottom it makes.....however...I broke mine over Thanksgiving and haven't found a new one yet. You can do the same thing with a cast iron grill if you own one, or you can just let it rise on cornmeal placed on a pan, if you wish. I put a small pan of ice cubes in the bottom of the oven at the time I put the bread in to generate steam.

Since this recipe has no oil, and you create steam, it will have a hard crust. I cook mine at 400 then start checking it at 20 minutes but I cook it until I like the color. LOL Personally I think a thick crusted bread like this benefits from being cooked a little longer. I have been using the recipe above, but have been substituting a cup of rye flour. That gives it a little more "old world" taste which I love. I think this would make great pizza crust, and you could take it out and use it cold for that. For bread you will need to let the dough warm up.

My normal bread (2 loaf pans cooked at 350 degrees about 45 minutes) I use Pyrex or corning ware.

2 1/4 cups warm water
1 Tablespoon yeast
1 Tablespoon salt
2 Tablespoons oil
3 Tablespoons sugar
6 cups flour
(Optional: Spoonful of Vital Wheat Gluten)

This is the basic receipe, but I normally use whole wheat flour for at least half of the flour. NOTE: You will need to reduce the flour slightly when using whole wheat flour. I suggest reducing the flour and a little increase in the sweetener. A Tablespoon of molasses is a good addition when using whole wheat flour.

I use SAF instant yeast and have found you can use hot water instead of warm with it. Not boiling, but as hot as it comes out of my faucet works fine without killing the yeast. Of course, my water may not be as hot as yours. At any rate, you can use warmer than with the old yeast.

After mixing, I let it rise until double in the bowl, then stir it down and let it rise until double again. Then I dump it on a floured surface and work it into loaves. If you just love to knead, this is the time, but it doesn't require much since it has risen twice. Now let it rise until double in the pan, and bake.

This is enough for two loaves. If you don't want to bake both you can put the unused back into a greased bowl and keep in the refrigerator for a few days. Bring it back to room temp before using.

The optional ingredient of Vital Wheat Gluten....
I have made bread for years without this ingredient, but about a year ago I started to add it and was impressed. It will keep the bread fresh longer, and I believe it helps with the rise of the loaf. It is available at Walmart where the speciality flours are sold. It is about $2.40 but is enough for many loaves. If your family will not eat the loaf in one day, I think you wil notice the difference in it's keeping quality.

I have lots more but these are the two I use most often. My husband would be happy if I used all whole wheat flour in this, but it is a little heavy for my tastes. When you master these two, let me know and we will talk about some other things.

On the 2nd bread above, I do not put the ice in the oven, and when the bread comes out of the oven I brush the tops with butter. You want this crust to be soft.

Here is a link that might be useful: The 5 min a day method

Ilene - I had looked at that website before and didn't see anything I was interested in. This is a good source for sprouting seeds and such, but I usually just buy at a health food store.
http://www.waltonfeed.com/store

I have plenty of dark red winter wheat, but was just interested in trying some of the others. The wheat I use is great for bread, but you know me, I just wanted to experiment. I always have a lot of grain to use. My husband was telling someone last week that his wife bought popcorn in 50 pound buckets. LOL OK, so it's true. It always pops down to the end....and if it didn't, I could always grind it for cornbread. I buy it at Sams.

I may have to buy a new grain mill soon, so I was looking at the ones at Walton's the other day. Mine still works fine, but I have a piece of tape on the knob to keep it from moving back to another grind. LOL I't only the 2nd one I have worn out though, so they last a long time. When I buy a new one, I want one that will grind beans. I think that would be a good way to get extra nutrition in a pot of soup, would work as a thickening agent, and cook quickly.

Another thing about soup. I was taught that when you are cooking soup or beans with a bone in the pot, that adding one tablespoon of vinegar helps move the calcium from the bone to the food. I always do this and I can't taste the vinegar. I don't know if I am benefitting or not, but it makes me feel like I am doing something good for me. LOL

That's the way I make my bone broth, with a tablespoon of vinegar to a crockpot of bones and water. And when the broth is done, I can't taste the vinegar either.

I learned about the vinegar trick last week! Must work! LOL... I never throw away my chicken bones, never thought of the egg shells tho! With a rapidly growing fifteen year old AND a rapidly growing THREE year old... calcium is important to me!
Ya'll don't pin a medal on me yet... my Poor Folks Gardening idea is just that. AN IDEA! I went to speak with our renters yesterday, and they didn't seem that enthused about a community garden. Three younger mom's, in their early twenties... I guess they have no patience yet. LOL! So, I'm going ahead with my plan to plant behind their houses anyway... maybe they'll get interested once they see me out there and IF things grow well. Ya never know!

Soonergrandmom,
THANK YOU! I've got to get more wheat flour when we do our shopping tomorow, but then I'm going to play with bread dough! My youngest is just now getting the whole sandwich concept, so we go thru a loaf of bread pretty fast. The only bread I've been slightly good at making is Irish Soda Bread, I make it to go with my beef stew... great for dipping.

I'm thinking Chicken and Dumplings and homemade bread for Sunday dinner now! I'll let you know how it turns out!

Beth

Just had to post this one last thing before the thread dies. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Little Johnny and his family were having Sunday dinner at his grandmother's house. Everyone was seated around the table as the food was being served. When Little Johnny received his plate, he started eating right away. "Johnny! Please wait until we say our prayer,' said his mother. 'I don't have to,' the boy replied. 'Of course, you do,' his mother insisted. 'We say a prayer before eating, at our house.' 'That's our house,' Johnny explained. 'But this is Grandma's house and she knows how to cook!

Beth - I don't make dumplings, but I do make egg noodles. Easy to remember
1 cup flour
1 teaspoon salt
1 egg
1/2 egg shell full of water

I roll them out on a floured surface until they are quite thin, then cut with a rolling pizza cutter. Let them dry a little while before dropping in boiling broth to cook. Noodles are tougher and chewier than dumplings, but that's what we like and this is easy to remember. Adjust as needed.