Nope, unless you use glyphosate ("Roundup(R)") your chances of getting ahead of quackgrass are pretty small. Smothering with thick layers of wet newspaper can work, but you better let that pile lay on the ground for at least two years. The quackgrass rhizomes can last at least one year under the newspaper (or black plastic).

And if you allow any quackgrass to grow nearby, it will soon invade your new prairie. Wicked stuff.

I concur with John's advice ; short of hand-picking every rhizome fragment beneath the earth (which would get you into the Guiness Book of Records) you will have to consider using Roundup or Transorb to have peace of mind.
I know some people cringe at the thought of using herbicides, but glyphosate is not a residue herbicide and thereby a low-impact weed-control method.And holding back on the recommended dose will only postpone the problem;smaller doses will kill off the foilage but parts of the rhizomes may survive to allow the plants to resume growth within a year.
Failure to rid your desired praire area of quackgrass will only bring you disappointment and discouragement....unless you want to use quackgrass as your main attraction :-)
Derek

I'm with Annie on the small prarie meadow idea. Here's my question: why can't I plant sprigs of sweet grass and toss wildflower seeds all over the site of "weeds", can't they live together? Don't they exist together in the wild?
What if I do decide to eradicate all my weeds with herbicide.. will it harm my bulbs underneath? Will it mix with rain and run off to the roots of my trees? We have some HORRIBLE kudzu out front as well so I might have to use it regardless of these concerns.

No, not if the "herbicide" is Roundup (glyphosate). It doesn't kill bulbs in the ground. It doesn't run off with rain to zap tree roots, either. When glyphosate hits a soil particle it is effectively disabled and therefore has no "carryover." It works only by contact with foliage, where it is absorbed by the plant. Glyophosate is not any general "herbicide." There are many kinds of "herbicides" working in different ways. Don't lump them all together as being merely "kill-all" persistent chemicals.

And no, sweet grass, wildflowers, and weeds do not exist together in the wild. The weed you are confrounted with is quackgrass, and it out-competes everything else. Most weeds come from 1) other continents (kudzu from Asia, quackgrass from Eurasia), or 2)from physical disruption of a local environment. That's why you need to plant not just a species or two, but plant an entire community (prairie, wetland, forest, etc.)

Lastly, wildflowers aren't weeds, so simply spreading their seeds over an area is not likely to cause many to grow. They have to be properly planted, which can be different for each species. This isn't gardening. This is nature.

ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTAND YA AMIGO! Thank you for the clarification on ALL accounts.

Sorry if it sounded like I clumped the herbacides altogether but I haven't had ANY experience with herbacides thats why I turn to the gardenforum. Me = clueless :)

Just outta curiosity, how have you acquired your knowledge of herbacides? Is it by using different ones for different situations that you've encountered over the years?

Although there are specialty herbicides that are sometimes recommended on these forums for some purposes (e.g. killing only grasses or only broadleaf plants; killing brush by painting bark or stumps), I would say that 99% of the herbicide recommendations are for Roundup (or other generic products containing the active ingredient glyphosate).

Glyphosate is probably the most environmentally benign herbicide available, yet it is effective for a variety of applications. I would say it's 'drawbacks' are the same as it's strengths: it is non-persistent (you may need multiple applications over a season to kill all the plants in a treatment area) and it is non-selective (you have to be careful not to get any on nearby plants that you want to keep).

How do I know about the chemistry and physiology of glyphosate herbicides? I'm a retired biology intructor, specializing in botany and plant community management (prairies). I am a native landscape design consultant specializing in the design, specification, installation, and management of native grass and wildflower meadows. I've been using glyphosate since it entered the market back in the 70s. Before that, I tried everything else, so I know by personal experience what works and doesn't. As a biologist, I'm very attentive to legitimate environmental hazards, including many (but not all) herbicides.

For the purposes of this forum, however, I will distinctly separate my professional activities from my contributions to this board. (I wish to follow the appropriate commercial guidelines, and will make no other reference to my firm.) It's a great delight to see so many begin the next movement in American landscaping, the use of native herbaceous species in the creation of native prairies and meadows.

My best wishes to all, and hope I am allowed to continue to contribute.

Hmmm, what about corn gluten? I've heard a little about this, nothing in depth or specific to quack grass, tho.

corn gluten, from what i understand, is used to prevent seed germination.

and i havnt been in the business as long as john (80's here) but round up is a god send to doing land management.

quack is a serious management problem. and to think that u are gonna get all the quack with even a full year of spraying is folly.
ive had 2 years of round up app's that looked like it killed everything.
guess what? quack, reed canary and fescue's lived.

there are ways of controlling these grasses. maybe a early spring/late fall round up spray to get the cool season grasses.

froggy

I have been working on this intermittent lentic wetland for about a year now. I use detritus, wherever I find it. I had some holes dug on the site of an old clay mine to get my wetlands. I have generally been using organic gardening techniques. I generally add layers of mulch over the newspaper or cardboard. I used wood mulch this summer. And lots and lots of leaves this fall. I like leaves a lot. When a weed comes up, you generally throw more leaves on top. Weeds sprout a lot faster through wood mulch compared to leaves for some reason. Nasty, nasty couch grass. Put some cardboard or newspaper now. Throw six to eight inches of leaves on top. I have been experimenting with multiflora rose. When last year's Xmas tree kept floating stupidly on one of the ponds, I gave up and threw it on this multiflora rose. Whenever, I thought of it, I threw more on it. I have a number of cut up cushions with vines encircling the rose bush. I threw quite a number of bagged leaves over the rose bush this fall... and will throw a couple more bags on. I have the pickup truck loaded with cardboard, bagged leaves, and a few Xmas trees and am waiting for some decent weather for one last trip before the weather really gets cold. As long as I see bagged leaves, I get them. It gets to be a compulsive act and a pick up truck filled that way looks a big. Most of our introduced weeds find leaf mold to be more or less poisonous.

I have read about the smothering with paper/leaves/bark mulch method and think it is most effective for weeds that reside in the soil as seeds. By smothering the seeds and denying them the light that they need to germinate, you get effective weed control.

Weeds that exist in the soil as perennials and underground tubers or rhizomes, such as quackgrass, are slightly different and tough to smother.
The chemical glyphosate in Roundup works by entering the leaves and moving to the root tips, which die and deprive the plant of water. That is why it is most effective when applied and followed by hot, sunny weather. Bacteria in the soil breakdown glyphosate.
I have an agricultural background and do not agree with the use of chemicals willy nilly. Glyphosate is the only garden chemical that I would consider using on my property.

I'm a patient gardener, but even I don't have the patience for smothering quackgrass. Roundup is safe (as herbicides go) as long as you follow label directions. This includes wearing the proper Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), following guidelines concerning re-entry intervals, and following all cleanup procedures. Another caution, is volatility. When it comes to pesticides, volatility doesn't refer to explosiveness or anything like that, but measures the "fumes" as the herbicide evaporates. Although it is neutralized on soil contact, it does evaporate off of plants and can damage a few select nearby plants. (oaks are probably the most sensitive.)

I have used the wet newspaper layers/smother technique with success for the types of weeds that spread by seed. I don't have any experience with quackgrass (thankfully!) but I can tell you that while I believe in this method wholeheartedly, it does not work for our local equivalent to quackgrass, bindweed. The bindweed travels as much as 10' laterally and weaves its way through the layers by the end of one season. The good news is that the plant that does emerge has been severly weakened by its long sojourn to get to sunlight, and repeated pulling will (hopefully) put it down for the count. This is very labor intensive.

The other good news about the method, however, is that soil quality improves dramatically. Here in the high southwest the soil I used the newspaper layers method on went from hard, dense dry sun-baked red clay to a brown, moist clumpy soil full of worms in just one year.

If you had trouble with weeds other than only quackgrass or only bindweed I would recommend the newspaper method.

Hello Annie,
I have encountered a problem like yours where there are dense thickets of weeds that would appear to immerse me in an endless contest of man against nature. I thought about it at length and struggled with several attempts to eradicate them with conventional products, but all was in vain.
However, we have heard it said that when you work WITH nature instead of against it, you are likely to make some progress. Consequently, I used fire. First I went through the area and sprayed the overgrowth with Roundup to cause it to wilt down and to dry up. Next I went through with loppers to knock down the heavy growth, and waited a couple weeks (in summer). When it was all sufficiently dry, I went back with some ordinary gasoline, after raking away from the margins where I wanted the fire to stop. I also allowed a fall zone where anything blown over or fallen down on fire would come to rest on bare soil. I kept a shovel and water hose at the ready. The day was not particularly windy.
I poured enough gasoline here and there to get it started, and threw the match. The following blaze was more than a match for the weed stricken area. I managed the controlled burn all the way through, and at the end of it, I raked up the stones, wires and other refuse that was hidden in it. I also used a mattock pick to hoe out the stumps of woody shrubweeds.
Afterwards, a dense mat of short grass grew in, and stiffled any return for several years. That was the best remedy I have ever used.

A couple quick point about controlled burning:

1. Fire is usually not an effective way to control perennial weeds -- I'm not sure about quackgrass.

2. Don't use straight gasoline to start controlled burns -- too explosive. The most appropriate technique is to use a drip torch with a mixture of diesel fuel and gasoline. Both the design of the torch and the addition of diesel fuel reduce the hazard of uncontrolled flame or explosion.

I am no expert at all, but I have dealt with quack grass and have gotten lots of info from books and these forums. And I want to thank all the experts like John Blakeman & john MO & all others from the bottom of my heart!!

The reason Quack grass takes a while to kill with Roundup is its extensive, interconnected rhizome system. I presume what happens is that as soon as the tops dieback, no more moves into the roots, and so may leave some rhizome alive to resprout. However, Quackgrass rhizomes are (unlike bindweed!) close to the surface. So what I would do is this: rototill in the late fall to break up these rhizomes. Exposed portions will be winter-killed. In the spring, start up the Round-up program to kill off what survives and new weed growth. From the experience of others I know, the longer you kill off weeds first, the better!! And don't forget, if there is still lawn or whatever with quackgrass in it surrounding the prairie area, you will have to do something to prevent it from re-entering. I'm still hoping to learn more about that one! Like how far down edging would have to go to block it; would trenching be effective, etc.

I'll be starting weed eradication on my future small praire this fall or next. Just think, Annie, in a few years WE will be sort-of experts and be able to help others start their prairies!

Hi DBS and others,
I have dealt with horrible infestations of quack and bindweed at the old place. I'll admit I caved and used roundup a few times(I am essentially an organic gardner) but I didn't find it to work any better than the smother method discribed by Cindy and Mercy. Labor intensive; yes. Add a lot of digging. Even more labor intensive; yes. Did I ever completely get rid of them; no. But, over the years they were much easier to pull due to the greatly improved soil. The seed bank was decreased so the work load was eventually decreased. I did try the tilling and let me say I would not recomend it unless you plan to continue to till every single time you see sprouts. If you continue to till frequently, you may eventually weaken it, but by chopping it up you are really doing it a favor, because every single piece sprouts into a new plant. If you don't get it again before it sends up its blades the above ground growth feeds the roots and makes it stronger. You would probably be better off continuously mowing so that it couldn't get sunlight. One more point. If it ever gets away from you and grows, at least don't ever, ever let it go to seed. My plan was smother, dig as much as I had time for, pull up new shoots as soon as you see them(especially for the bind weed) and if it gets away from you mid summer at least keep it from seeding. My new place has a little quack but nothing like before. And much easier to pull from the sand than from my old clay. I almost have it all gone after two years.