Norway maples have dense shade, as well as being shallow rooted, making it difficult (but not impossible) to plant under.
I would not start with anything expensive or endangered till I saw how they do. Remember to water and fertilize the whole area so the tree roots do not grow to the source of water and food.

The 'blue'hostas will tolerate heavy shade the best.

You will probably be better off getting more mature plants rather that small ones to start with.

Suggestion, hakone provides some striking color with only two hours of sun per day. If you have two hours of sun per day in some spots, buddleia should work and provide some fun color for three to four months. Enjoy.

If you really want a shade garden, consider replacing the Norway Maples. They really are a very bad choice for gardening under--extremely dense shade, and fibrous roots that suck all nutrients and moisture from the soil.

Thank you for the replies.

I would like to remove these Norways, but.... that neighbor put in an elevated deck. They can (and do) peer over that ugly 6 foot stockade fence they put in and are frankly so rude as to point at us when we are in our yard. The Norways block their view fairly well. This yard had several Norways in it that were never planted, and I have already removed two thirty footers. These two do provide some much needed privacy from these rather rude nieghbors. To make matters worse, they can and do peep into our kitchen and den inside the house from their perches. That more than anything is why I'd like to keep the maples, as buying anything large enough to replace them is not in the budget.

So, I will try to do what I can to make that corner of the yard more interesting. Removing the maples would be a last resort. Log and Cinnamon ferns aren't real expensive or hard to get. It's just that in the state of NY they are threatened/endangered. They are both nice specimen ferns, and I like the idea that they are rare in their natural habitat locally.

I can prune the Norways up some more on the east side, and that spot should get full sun from 7am till about noon. Then, the sun will go over the canopy, and then dense shade.

Yardmom, yes, I have noticed how oriented to the surface the Norway's roots are. I plan to raise the soil height about a foot in the area. I am also thinking that this shade garden will need a lot of TLC and feeding to support anything other than these nutrient hungry maples. Thanks for the tip on larger plants. I can get big cinnamon ferns but the log ferns will be samll quart containers. I will look at the blues more closely... thanks for the tip.

Never heard of either variety, so thanks Paul, I will look into those. Hey, that's why I asked! I am trying to expand as a gardener, having gotten into some ruts with the same old stuff every year.

laceyviel, if you have read my respnse, you know why I am reluctant to remove the Norways. With some careful pruning, I can increase the sunlight in this area, while keeping something of a privacy screen. Is it possible with a lot of attention to provide enough nutrients on a regular basis to keep my plantings well nourished under these Norawys, or is it near impossible? I'm very willing to nurture this shade garden endlessly, but is it a lost cause before I even start it? I can top it off with even more soil and compost each year, and can feed it regularly, but just what does one feed a shade garden in the growing season? This is my biggest concern.

My friend Joe has named them Norweed maples. I guess if a tree can be a weed, it's the lowly Norway maple.

Thanks for the answers.... VERY much appreciated!

I would just feed the area with a standard fertilizer like Osmocote.

You can always plant in spin out bags or Agroliner root control bags, or line the bottom of a raised planter with that fabric to discourage the tree roots from invading your planting medium, though it is not cheap.

And pots, maybe a bench too, artistically arranged can make a plain area special.

Do NOT raise the soil level around the trees! Unfortunately, increasing the soil level over the root zone by much more than an inch or two will have a very detrimental effect on the trees and could (and probably will) kill them. This is especially true with trees that have surface roots like the maples. If removing the trees is not an option you care to pursue, then don't back into it by utilizing ill-advised horticultural practices.

Underplanting maples and other large trees with aggressive, shallow root systems is a challenging task but not impossible. Starting with smaller plants (easier to dig planting holes through that root mass) generally allows for easier establishment than if you were to opt for larger plants. If digging a sufficiently deep and wide planting hole is very difficult, you can use the same suggestions that are made for planting in heavy clay or poorly draining soils. Dig a shallow but relatively wide planting hole and the position the plant high with the top of the rootball above grade. You can then mound soil or soil amendments upto that point, creating mini berms. This method will circumvent both the difficulty in digging an appropriately generous planting hole through the tree roots as well as give the new plant a decent start without risking the health of the tree by raising the soil level uniformly throughout the root area.

And you many need to rethink your plant selection somewhat. Plants that are drought tolerant and do not require uniformly moist soils will be easiest to accommodate in this situation. Once established, hostas are remarkably drought tolerant and ANY variety will grow well in quite dense shade. A good many ferns also demonstrate this ability. Other choices would be epimediums, Geranium macrorrhizum, Dicentra eximia or formosa, Lady's mantle and hellebores. Astilbe needs copious amounts of soil moisture to thrive, so this may not be a great choice or you need to locate it on the periphery where it can get deeper, richer soil and better watering. A more droughty alternative is Aruncus or goatsbeard although you don't get the variety of flower color - just a creamy white. The same with the groundcover - sweet woodruff does best where soil moisture is uniform. Deadnettle (Lamium) or ajuga may be a better choice. And you can always add some woodland ephemerals - arums, trilliums, dogtooth lilies, gentians, hardy cylcamen, violets, etc. all seem to be able to compete well with the shade, root and dry conditions of woodland plantings. You can always Google ("dry shade plants") to get more suggestions, including a fair number of larger shrubs, that will work for your location.

Any plant that is considered to be drought tolerant will not be so immediately on planting. You will need to provide regular watering for at least one full growing season, perhaps two, before they are established well enough to be self-sufficient. And because of the nutrient drain from those greedy tree roots, this is an instance where regular fertilizing is appropriate.

gardengal, thank you very much!

That area tends to stay moist, and I can't recall it ever becomg dusty or dry at all. While the top soil is very rich, almost black, and compacted, it does seem to drain fairly well now. We have two dogs, and they tend to put "ruts" in some areas, this being one of them as the run the perimeter of the yard. I will be fencing this area off so it won't be accessable to them. I do want to level that ground a little bit, to get rid of these ruts, but even in these depressions, water doesn't stand long before draining.

To level out these depressions, that have exposed over time a couple of the roots of the maples, I might have to add about 4" of soil in these depressions away from the roots, but the roots would still be exposed to the surface and air circulation. Is it still advisable to not add much soil in these spots?

Thank you for preventing me from creating a disaster. I am certain I can keep this area moist with a soaker hose. The southern and western exposures are bordered by 6 foot stockade fences. The eatern exposure is pretty much open to sunlight. The soil is always moist. I am outside every day tending to things, so one more task is no problem. You have certainly given me much in the way of planting possibilities for me to become educated about, so many plants I am entirely unfamiliar with.... LOL.... but I am trying to get away from my old habits of planting the same things over and over again.

I will gently dig and probe a bit to find out where the maple roots are and where introduced plantings will have maximum room to get established. When I do get around to planting, I will stay flexable, things like making small berms and whatnot are great tips.

In any case, I am sure I will learn alot, as I have already thanks to you folks who took the time to reply and help me along the way. I will have to take some before and after pictures, and perhaps update this topic as the project moves forward.... maybe it can help others too.

Oh, yes, Happy Thanksgiving!

You're very welcome :-)) And filling in ruts from dog traffic is not quite the same as piling a quantity of soil evenly throughout the root zone - you should be fine with that.

I'm surprised this area is able to stay moist. Typically maple roots suck all the moisture out of the soil, as well as the nutrients, which is why this planting situation causes so many gardeners grief. But if that is indeed the case, then you are ahead of the game and not quite so restricted in plant choices. I'd still pay pretty close attention for the first couple of years.

And I only just noticed your zone - in 7b you have a much wider plant palette than in colder zones so feel free to experiment some with more plants you are less familiar with. That Google search should turn up a lot of possibilites. Have fun!

And happy Thanksgiving to you......I am on my way out to join the family for dinner right now!

I think that I would try plants that grow in those conditions in my friend's yards before investing $ in an ill-fated experiment.

Shallow rooted plants suitable to a xeriscape deep shade would be my first choice.

Things like Stylophorum diphyllum (Celandine Poppy), Indian pink (Spigelia marilandica), trillium, Christmas Fern (Polystichum acrosstichoides), Cyclamen neapolitanum - Hardy Cyclamen.

I liked the hellebore idea, but they die if there isn't suicient moisture & organic material, & apparently... light.

I wouldn't limb up my trees.... yes, they're junk trees, but a privacy screen needs to stay dense.

As far as the soil issue goes, add several inches of woodchips.... these will slowly decompose and allow the existing soil community to work for you, creating easier planting conditions. Wait a year for the woodchips to break down before planting.

Don't use vermiculite. It is mined in certain places that contain asbestos and could contain it. Many potting mixes have stopped using it and have used perlite instead. I'm not sure you want potting mix outdoors. Just a warning...

The vermiculite "threat" is very old news and the only mine that produced asbestos contaminated vermiculite was closed down going on 20 years ago. Regardless, vermiculite is not a recommended soil amendment - it is often used in potting mixes and for seed starting but it is far too expensive and temporary in its effects to be considered a good garden soil amendment.

I'm not sure anyone recommended using vermiculite anyway..........

Lots of good advice above. Here is my 2 cents for dealing with what many consider to be the second worst tree (after walnuts) to have in a spot where you want to garden.

Norway mables are on the invasives list here in Illinois. Our village no longer plants them as parkway trees because they create too many volunteers that crowd out better trees, such as our native Burr Oaks.

Ultimately you should get rid of those trees, because they are always going to be a huge problem. I suggest that you do it with a long range plan.

First, get some vines growing up the spite fence between you and your neighbor. In due course, you can add a trellis or pergola for them to grow on to cut off the neighbors' view. When that is in place, take down the trees.

But be careful what vines you plant because a lot of them are very agressive. Search in the forum on "vines for shade" for ideas on what to plant and what not to plant. Long range, climbing hydrangea will be a very good choice. However, that vine will seem to do nothing for about 3 years while it establishes its roots, after which it will climb slowing for another couple of years before it finally takes off. Be sure to attach some wires or cord to the fence for it to climb on, because its arial roots won't be able to attach to the wood fence.

In the meantime, if you really have sun there from 7 to noon, you have good conditions for planting one or more "understory" trees. Cornus mas (a very easily grown dogwood that is one of the first trees to bloom in spring and that can be cut for winter forcing) is moderately priced and grows fast to about 20 feet. It can be easily trained as a hedge, and will do well in full sun after the maples come down.

While you are waiting for all of this to grow up, thin out the mables. A good tree pruner can do this to create more mass on your neighbor's side while giving you lots more sun on your side.

Down below, get your ground covers started, being sure to pick plants that will continue to do well after the maples come down. Any kind of hosta will grow in the sun you describe, although if they don't receive afternoon shade from the plantings between you and the spite fence, they will need to be replaced when the maples come down. Remember that the more water and food you give to hostas, the more delectible they become to slugs. Check out the hosta forum for tips on best selections.

Then look for a neighbor who is surfeiting in hostas and will agree to supply you with what you need in return for help dividing them.

Indeed, your best bet for all of the plantings you need except trees, is to seek out a local gardening mentor (probably an older person who is beginning to have some mobility problems) who would be willing to give you all of the advice and divisions you need in exchange for a smile, a chat and some help with the work.

Ferns are not a great idea because they won't be able to take the sun once the maples are gone. Also, they need a lot of water and will have trouble competing with maple roots.

Once the mables are gone, if you spot will have full morning sun followed by shade from afternoon sun, you will have a spot where you can grow a huge variety of plants.

Well spring is approaching, and I came back to review all of the great responses, and was to say the least, VERY happy to see even more folks offering wonderful advice!

After some time to think about it, and with new repsonses, I think I have finally come to understand.... these trees must go. I had been very hopeful I could get a fern garden going there, but I think I've come to realise the Norways are just too invasive to live with.

I think I have to fall back and punt.... growing vines on their fence might be a bit too aggressive. I may try the ferns and hostas, until I can afford a privacy fence I can own, and grow what I like on. These are not terribly expensive plantings, so the risk is low I think. In any case, it might be an interesting experiment, but I know now that sooner (hopefully) or later, the maples have to go.

I could grow some very nice plantings there once they are removed. oldgardener, you are wise. If I do attempt a fern planting... one more question... can they be transplanted? I have some other spots that I think they might do well in.

In any case, thank you all for some very thoughtful posts. I have learned! Oh, BTW.... I have volunteered at a state arboretum here in LI, NY... the Planting Fields. I can't wait for spring, and am looking forward to donating time and learning at the arboretum in the process! Thanks again!

In response to your question about ferns. I have two varieties of native ferns plus some that I bought. The native ferns are very tough, I've planted them everywhere in my yard and they are quite aggressive. The ones I bought, like Japanese painted fern and Christmas fern are more tidy, but will spread. Transplanting shouldn't be a problem.
Florrie