Probably a pretty dumb question. Could SSE just sell exclusive rights for these seeds to a seed company, or make a new corporation that they funnel seeds into for profit?
Call me paranoid.

*****

They can sell the some of the seeds they have and you see those listed in the Public Seed catalog. No different than TGS or TT or whatever in terms of selling seeds to the public.

They don't own the seeds and have no exclusive rights. No one does.

And they also have a wholesale list where they sell seeds to other public seed companies.

But they have no ownership of the seeds anymore than does any place where you might buy seeds. And no exclusive rights, as I mentioned above/

No one owns or has rights to OP Heirloom seeds b/c there are no owners for those. I've seen the figure that about 95% of all heirloom varieties arose by natural Cross pollination and selection while about 5% arose from previous varieties by mutation.

So no owner, not patentable, no rights, exclusive or not.

Only if it can be documented that a significant improvement can be made to a variety, and here I suggest breeding in some disease tolerances to some commercial OP's
would a situation arise where such a commercial variety might be patentable, but so far I don't think I've seen any of that.

The only variety I know of where a patent was applied for was Goose Creek and Jimmy Williams applied for that one and it's very interesting reading the patent application which is online. No way was he ever going to get it patented.

Carolyn

First ordered from Seed Savers last year. Never heard of Kent until a few months ago. But I did hear of Amy Goodman. The self-promotion turned me off. What I like about gardening is it is an escape from the world of celebrity. Decided amateurs were extraordinarily helpful to me my first year out and I know they have been to thousands of others. I am not interested in gardening "superstars" and those who receive breathless promotion from their friends in the publishing world. I've been in that world, it is vicious and I go into the garden to get away from it.

Now I see (which I did not know) that Goodman is at the center of this. I don't know but this looks like a classic take-over to me. Someone (probably a bunch of people) saw that SSE is worth far, far more than it is generating in revenue ("nonprofit" means nothing here, people can become very well off and give lots of jobs to their kids and friends by milking a "nonprofit"). The usual MO in these situations (and I've seen many) is to demonize the person who complains and wait out the storm.

Perhaps my analysis is wrong. Perhaps no one saw a financial play here. Perhaps this is a mere personality conflict and everyone's intentions are pure.

We shall see but I'm not getting involved with this group until it shakes out. And my inclination is to believe things will proceed just as I outlined. I also suspect Kent won't be the only one forced out. If so, I feel sorry for Kent and the others. They don't know the half of what they are in for.

Davidinct,
From what I've been able to learn I feel you are right on. I've said for awhile that Amy is at the heart of this. Look at her past. Taking her mother to court over their Dad's will I read. Doesn't look good to me. Likewise I have seen this happen before and if it isn't stopped soon and she is replaced the SSE will be ashes in my opinion. Jay

"Could SSE just sell exclusive rights for these seeds to a seed company, or make a new corporation that they funnel seeds into for profit?" [WalkTrotCanter99]

Yes, an organization can obtain exclusive rights or a "patent" on seeds and genetic material and "funnel" that germplasm or material through corporate structures and into the possession of other entities as a means of making a profit if the structure of "new corporation" were a "for profit" set-up.

The way an individual or company can do so is through PVP or Plant Variety Protection, which essentially "is a patent on a sexually propagated plant variety. PVP protects rights of ownership for the people who develop and release a cultivar for a period of 20 years. At the same time, there is full disclosure of how the variety was developed, making information available to anyone who wants it so that additional genetic advances can be made."

PVP Link

The link provided above goes on to say:

"What does PVP give the breeder?
*Property rights and exclusive ownership of the plant variety.
*PVP covers all harvested plant material, not just seed.

"Law covers intent. For example, other breeders may not make even a single backcross in an attempt to breed back to a variety protected by PVP.

"How does a breeder obtain PVP? What is the application process? To obtain PVP, the breeder must:
*Describe development process
*Prove the cultivar is unique, uniform and stable
*Submit ownership statement describing who owns the variety
*Pay fees - $2750 examination and certificate fee paid to PVP office.

"Owners will have additional data gathering and administrative costs. Total cost for OSU to obtain PVP for a wheat variety is predicted to be about $5,000 - $10,000."

So, basically, if SSE wanted to change it's mission, become breeders of improved cultivars rather than perpetuators of existing varieties, form a subsidiary for profit corporation, spend funds generated somewhere other than from the non-profit side, blah, blah, blah ... then, yes, they could somehow realize the paranoid fantasy contemplated by the question. However, I seriously doubt ANY of that will happen and I seriously doubt anyone associated with the SSE Board has the least thought of doing such a thing.

Bill

"Can growers save their own seed if they are growing a PVP protected variety? Yes. Growers can collect and save the seed from a PVP protected variety for their own future planting without violation of the law. Growers may not sell PVP seed without permission from the PVP holder."

This means that any of us can save seed from a PVP and grow it on our own for our own use, we could also trade that seed, but it cannot be sold.

"How does a breeder obtain PVP? What is the application process? To obtain PVP, the breeder must: Describe development process
Prove the cultivar is unique, uniform and stable
"

So, tah tah to any (ex)member saving PVP plant seed and selling it through the SSE catalogue, or on ebay, craigs list, etc.

Also, keep in mind that all PVP plants must be stable, meaning that they will reproduce truly. This is beneficial information to anyone who saves seeds.

PVP plants ARE stable.

T

Trudi,

Yes, I agree with what your saying, particulary regarding individual, non-business, home grown cultivation and seed swapping of PVPs between other non-business entities the same type.

I guess I didn't take the idea far enough ... and was only replying to whether SSE, through a for-profit entity, could acquire PVP "patent" rights on a cultivar, and then move it into the public sector for profit. I maintain that's a possibility, but an extremely remote probability unless SSE dramatically changes direction and mission. Don't think it's gonna happen.

Yes, PVP's are open pollinated, stable lines ... Black Pearl pepper, for example, or Super Beefsteak. Not arguing that. But the PVPs I was particularly thinking about are those where a plant breeder is maintaining open pollinated parent lines that possess certain characteristics, like specific disease resistance, and are used by that breeder for specific crosses to produce F1 seed from which to grow tomatoes designed to meet specific conditions and specifications. Those are PVP-protected varieties I was thinking about.

And those breeders have every right to expect their work be protected by such regulations as established for PVPs. The breeders can then enter into pollen exchanges or germplasm sales with a reasonable expectation of compensation for their work. Nobody should work without compensation ... that's called slavery.

And yes, if any organization has a bank of seeds and the capability of selecting unique strains that test resistant to specific pests and diseases, then that organization can develop and maintain parent breeding lines qualifying for PVP ... IMO. But I don't see SSE, as an organization, going in that direction. I do see individual SSE members doing it though, which I find admirable and beneficial, and hope someday they can afford PVP-ing their work.

Bill

Anyone can get PVP rights if they meet the criteria.

Several years ago I was infuriated over the high cost of Purple Majesty Millet and was sharing their seeds on GW. Some yingyang told me she had called "the breeder" and that she was told that the seeds would produce both green and maroon plants. They lied to her and they did so to profit. Yet the laws are there allowing personal se of the saved seeds; and they still lied to her. Gullible people are why PVPs continue to be so costly. One stem of PMM can produce a near half-cup of seeds. Originally, you could buy ten seeds for about $5.00, now they're down to 10 seeds for $2.95. A half cup of PMM has got hundreds, if not thousands, of seeds. It's disgusting.

Remember when Marianna's Peace seeds became available, what was the cost, I forget exactly but something outrageously high like ten seeds for $20? Just out of spite many growers shared those seeds, flooding the exchanges and thus helping to reduce the demand. We're all capable of doing growouts of stable lines and sharing their seeds with everyone we know. I share seeds 24/7, donations of seeds arrive here for sharing and many have PVP saved seeds in them, and I give them all away dispersed far and wide across the country.

Sounds like the internet. :-) That's great!

What's the most expensive seeds at the moment?

PJ

PJ, at 40c per seed (3.95 for 10 seeds) plus shipping and handling, Black Pearl Pepper may not be the most expensive seed on the commercial market, but is representative of how unnecessarily expensive an open pollinated variety can be.

Black Pearl seed exhibits a very high germination rate (90 - 100% in my three year experience) and readily reseeds itself, dropping berries that generate dozens of volunteers per drop. Considering the number of seeds one can harvest from a single plant, as Black Pearl is a prolific producer, the seed are hardly worth a penny apiece. But it is a PVP variety, and remains very expensive when bought by the seed pack.

Trudi, dear, chill. I'm with you on the liberation of germplasm. I'd just like folks who devote their entire careers to improving garden varieties to be able to realize a decent income from their labors.

Bill

Bill, dear, no need for me to chill because I'm not "hot up" on anything about this. Yes, people should get their due, I just have a very strong point of view about agricultural exploitation.

Hello Everybody
Trudi & Hoosiercherokee
I would like to receive a salary for my hard work one day. Hopefully I can do better farming next year. It tocks me so long to write something, or what I am thinking:

So "who will hire me" even if I think I'am qualified for a professonal Job. When those cherry "Amish salad" growing all over my yard after Hurricane Isabel, I believed the lord gave me my new line of work. Because that was the first time in my life being able to successfully growing a tomato to save on food cost, as a house wife, even if its was a cherry tomato with out.

Is there employment Opportunities in protecting,or saving seeding of the PVP Owners?

I have saved thousand's of these "Amish Salad cherries" Or Amish Salad PvP.
Can any farmer Grow PVP varieties?
How can a Farmer like me identify a PVP Variety?
Is this why I can not find Yellow Plum Grown from Iowa?
I have so much to say, but like the long above took me eight hours to Type.
So for all of you, if I leave long responses, I really really care, and want to help out, and give back in some way of all I have learned over the years, Amen!!

I was going to use the Amish Salad Cherries as one of my seeds to quailify for full membership at SSE.

Can I use the Amish Salad for SSE, if it a PVP?

...Amen

I was going to use the Amish Salad Cherries as one of my seeds to quailify for full membership at SSE.

Can I use the Amish Salad for SSE, if it a PVP?

*****

Mrs Justice,

Amish Salad is a variety I introduced and my seeds were from John Adams of IL

It is not patented (PVP)

Off hand I don't know of any OP heirloom varieties that are patented.

I'm not sure what you mean when you ask if you can use Amish Salad for SSE.

If you mean as an SSE member can you list it, it's been listed ever since I introduced it many years ago and in the 2007 SSE Yearbook there are quite a few folks already listing it.

Carolyn

Can any farmer grow a Pvp variety?

Yes, as long as you pay the cost of the seeds and/or are licensed by the developer to grow these seeds?
===================

How can a Farmer like me identify a PVP Variety?

Ask your seed merchant, talk about it at your grange, talk to your extension agent.
===========================

Is this why I can not find Yellow Plum Grown from Iowa?

Victory Seeds list Yellow Plum as an heirloom, the seeds are inexpensive, 20 for $1.95. Mrs J, PVP seeds are not that cheap; a real clue in on PVP seeds is a price tag that makes your eyes bug out.

If you consider PVP a "patent" (which essentially it is), then yes, there are open pollinated garden plant varieties that are patented by the breeders. I've already named two, Burpee's Super Beefsteak and Black Pearl pepper. There are others. Okay, I know Burpee now packages Super Beefsteak as a "hybrid," but in fact, up until 2006, it was simply called Super Beefsteak (no "hybrid" designation whatever), and had the PVP symbol on the packages.

I'm looking at two packages of Burpee's Super Beefsteak right now. Both have the same photograph of three tomatoes on the front. Both contain between 400 - 450 mg of seed ... quite a bit of seed for a "hybrid," huh? (It's not a hybrid obviously.) One pack is 1.79 and the other is 1.07 ... again, rather cheap for a "hybrid," huh? The one marked "hybrid" is packed for 2007. The one marked PVP is packed for 2005.

Now, my point is this ... a rock songwriter picks up a guitar with the same 6 strings as any other, and chops out a tune using the same 6 or 7-note scales, with the same basic rhythms, using the same 3 chord progressions, and following the same 12-bar structure ... and even with much the same lyrics following the same threadbare themes ... and WHAMMO ... hit record ... copyrighted ... makes millions ... wows all the fans ... rides in limosines ... blah, blah, blah. Every time that tune plays on a jukebox, the writer gets a royalty. Everytime the tune is included in a movie score, the songwriter gets paid.

Now, Tom Wagner spends his entire life developing unique tomato and potato cultivars. Yeah, you can see where I'm going and I can already hear the groans. But it's true. How much royalty does Tom get whenever a commercial seed vendor sells a pack of Green Zebra seeds, or Green Sausage, or any number of other very unique cultivars that were begged, borrowed or stolen from Tom? Same with bedding plants. How much royalty does Tom get from them. Zilch.

But the breeders of Black Pearl pepper had the resources to pursue a patent ... a PVP, if you please ... and for the 10 years following the introduction of their "unique" cultiver (which in essence is simply the segregated or recombinated progeny of a cross of two other open pollinated peppers), for the next ten years, those breeders get a nifty royalty hopefully to repay their investment and make a tidy profit. What the heck is wrong with that? It happens in most other industries. What is so freakin' special about plant breeding that some folks think it's some sort of God-given right that everyone have free access to another person's professional and proprietary product?

Bill

Hello Everyone & Carolyn

It is good to know that Amish Salad are not PVP, Thanks.
It is Also good to know that OP Heirloom may not be patented, but I do know that the USDA Have been saving some of these seeds, and If they release them, It will be release to many Professionals Like You-all Or SSE, SESE.

Yes, thats what I meant about the Amish Salad, because they want to know what seeds I have saved to trade with on one of the Forms. I only have been saving seeds of this Amish Salad to Practices with on a larger scale in much bigger the cups in your book, to get very clean seeds, like the family that seed me many Heirloom seeds. And as clean as the seeds that Hon. Bill sent me. The Family that grow the Hankins Tomatoes seeds and Hon. Bill Tomatoes seed was as clean as all the companies I order from, with 100% generation.

I have only used the Amish Salad over the years to Practice with, to obtain the same qualities as the seeds send to me from forum members, reaching a remarkable 90-99 percent Generation Rate last Summer, and very clean.

So now, I feel that I am ready to become a Member of SSE and others Seed saving organization after three years of Practice. It was just in time to save my supply of Hawkins seeds from running out and along with other like the Campbells that grow back last summer.

When I applied for membership at SE, I was only Sent the Seed Savers 2007 Summer Edition, many Welcome Cards, Seed Saver Catalog thats giving out to the public. So I will have no way of knowing what is listed my other members, and I lost the Address of the Hawkins family who sent me my first Heirloom Seeds, to seed if they are PVP with the lost of so many conputer over the years.

Maybe someone can E-mail me their Address to jet that information, and to say Thank You..Amen!!

Well maybe I should just waits, or can I use seeds I brought from companies. Because I was able to save October Bean seeds last summer, but I brought them from SSE. So someone three must already have them on their list too.

But If I Use companies seed to list on the form, than that will not be me saving the seeds, unless I would get a member catalog before completing all paper work.

Trud, I thanks for the Victory seed website. I was just about to give up on the Yellow Plums for next year.

It is good to know that Amish Salad are not PVP, Thanks.
It is Also good to know that OP Heirloom may not be patented, but I do know that the USDA Have been saving some of these seeds, and If they release them, It will be release to many Professionals Like You-all Or SSE, SESE.
******

The USDA has not been saving many OP heirlooms other than older commercial heirlooms and as far as I know all of the most important ones are already out of the USDA and for the most part listed in the SSE YEarbook by the individuals who requested them from the USDA.

However, no longer can individuals other than professional breeders request accessions b'c of abuse of the system, which was discussed here at GW at great length. A lengthy documented application by professional breeders is now required.

Actually about 95% of all the accessions in the USDA are long outdated former breeding accessions.

The USDA does not release accessions to SSE or SESE or any other similar seed source or organization.

*******
Yes, thats what I meant about the Amish Salad, because they want to know what seeds I have saved to trade with on one of the Forms. I only have been saving seeds of this Amish Salad to Practices with on a larger scale in much bigger the cups in your book, to get very clean seeds, like the family that seed me many Heirloom seeds. And as clean as the seeds that Hon. Bill sent me. The Family that grow the Hankins Tomatoes seeds and Hon. Bill Tomatoes seed was as clean as all the companies I order from, with 100% generation.

***** Sounds good Mrs Justice. I don't know what Forums your'e referring to but seed trades are not always required. I've made several seed offers here at GW in the past and clearly stated I wanted no trades.

******
When I applied for membership at SE, I was only Sent the Seed Savers 2007 Summer Edition, many Welcome Cards, Seed Saver Catalog thats giving out to the public. So I will have no way of knowing what is listed my other members, and I lost the Address of the Hawkins family who sent me my first Heirloom Seeds, to seed if they are PVP with the lost of so many conputer over the years.
*****

No application is really necessary to become an SSE member. If you sent in your membership fee and were sent a form to list the varieteis you wanted in the 2008 SSE catalog, and the deadline was around last Nov 1, or so, then you know you are a listed member. If you didn't send in money for membership and didn't get the form last Fall where you list your varieties to beomce a listed member you might want to go to seedsavers.org and e-mail someone or call SSE on the phone and ask/ The number at SSE is (563)382-5990.

But if you received both the Summer and Harvest editions it seems to me you probably are a member and should have received the forms last Fall to list your varieteis for the 2008 Yearbook. Did you get that form?

********

Maybe someone can E-mail me their Address to jet that information, and to say Thank You..Amen!!

*****

I'm not sure which address you mean b'c you've talked about SSE as well as the Hawkins seeds. And I did give you contact info for SSE above.

******
Well maybe I should just waits, or can I use seeds I brought from companies. Because I was able to save October Bean seeds last summer, but I brought them from SSE. So someone three must already have them on their list too.

*****

If you aren't sure if you're a member and didn't get a form asking you to list your vareities I think you should call and get this situation straightened out.

Also, you can't assume that a listed member is listing the October Beans b'c SSE has varieties that might no longer be listed by listed members but that they preserve. But most of the time the varieties in the Public Catalog are offered by listed members. But not always.

********

I hope the above helps but I really think you should contact SSE to see if you're an SSE member. Even if you sent your membership money in it may have been too late to list anything for the 2008 Yearbook. If you're a member you will receive the 2008 Yearbook in a few weeks and then this Fall you'll receive the form to list varieties for the 2009 Yearbook.

I do hope I've helped with the above comments Mrs. Justice.

Carolyn

It happens in most other industries. What is so freakin' special about plant breeding that some folks think it's some sort of God-given right that everyone have free access to another person's professional and proprietary product?
(Bill)

Dear Hoosiercherokee

Your point of view made me think about my Farming future, Amen!!

So I am seeking out funding Ideals, because we have one more child who wants to go to college, Thank God.

I must finds ways to help my Husband other than saving on budgets, especially food budget buy growing up my little farm slow process.

I belive that everyone should have a salary with hard work too. Especially potecting all of my hard work, before some Professional hit the ground running with my Ideals in my area.

I understand your piont of view, becuse I have to buy organic Tomatoes seeds as main crops of Heirloom Tomatoes.

I pray that all companies who make a profit, gives some of those profits to the Seed Organazations or the people that made the contribution to their company.

If I ever make a profit off growing Gren Zabra, I will look up Mr.Tom Wagner, and sen him a check, Amen!!!!!!!!!

Please Bill. Copyright is by no means a guaantee of profit. It only marks the origin.

Trudi,

Generally, for the purposes of copyright, a publisher is the owner of a copyrighted musical work. Contemporary standard practice for songwriters of even the slightest prominence is to form their own publishing company that owns the rights to the artist's work. The logic behind this method are matters of legal finese to accomplish the protection and subequent profit earning off the work created by the artist. I think you knew that and can relate it to my comparison to PVPs.

Mrs. Justice ... AMEN!!! And if you need any heirloom tomato seeds for your little farm, please email me at tomatohead48@hotmail.com ... and I'll bet Trudi would post you some seeds from WinterSown.org too!!! Amen!!!

If you aren't sure if you're a member and didn't get a form asking you to list your vareities I think you should call and get this situation straightened out.
Carolyn

That's the form I was talkng about, but I did not have time to mail off because I only has that One Items cherries listed above.

So I will call them and explain my reasons of not sending in that form in on time. Thank you for explaining the time table of the member catalog. I did paid membership fee last year.

The Sand Hill Preservation Center website has some verities of Tomatoes that was given to them from the USDA, but I can not down load from her site to order. I am on a special quest to farm Heirlooms from a Historical collect. There is some information of Abraham Lincoln,s Grandparents who lived here in Virginia grow the disprition of the real Abraham, before they moved to Kenturck. I was hoping USDA had seeds that was saved by them, or family members. I'am looking for the true Abraham lincolns with the brown colored leaves

I pray that someone will continue in your footsteps to continue seeking the history of heirloom tomatoes, Iike you and others.

I will give SSE a call, thank you for the information.

Bill, I grew up in a family of music composers, publishers, editers and typographers, ok?

Great ... ask them if I can have ten of their sweet songs, at no charge, to put on an album that I can sell for whatever I can make.

I'am looking for the true Abraham lincolns with the brown colored leaves

*****

You and lots of other folks I know have also looked for the bronze leaved foliage and they've tried all sorts of Abraham Lincolns from all sorts of sources.

And no luck at all.

The opinion of most folks is that the original bronze foliage was due to perhaps some special mineral concentration in the soil b/c no one else has seen it again.

Yes, there are some varieties that Glenn at Sandhill lists from the USDA and many of them are from the Yearbook listings b'c as I mentioned above, in years past individuals were able to request seeds.

When you get your Yearbook you'll see several folks listing the USDA as a source, either as seeds received from others or from seeds they got out when that was possible, just as you will at Victory Seeds, TGS and others.

I'm one that got quite a few varieties out in the early 90's, as well as Craig L. my tomato friend, and we listed ALL of them in the Yearbook.

Carolyn

If I get any tomato plants with bronze colored leaves ... I'm sprayin'm heavy or yankin'm out.

If I get any tomato plants with bronze colored leaves ... I'm sprayin'm heavy or yankin'm out.

*****

Now Bill!!!!

That is NOT the best way to handle the situation is it? LOL

You're going to save seeds from that bronze-foliaged plant and sow those seeds the next year and stand by with your sprays and a spade handy by your side once again. LOL

Carolyn

Great ... ask them if I can have ten of their sweet songs, at no charge, to put on an album that I can sell for whatever I can make.

They're all dead in the grave a long time. Besides, I can't imagine you singing Schoenberg.

Sing Schoenberg? Doubt it. But it sounds like a good ale. Let's share a six pack!!!

I'll bring the can opener, you bring the chips.

"Sing Schoenberg? Doubt it. But it sounds like a good ale. Let's share a six pack!!!"

Damn. And here I was hoping for a barbershop quartet version of Gurrelieder.

I'm in for the Beer and Chips!!

I'm picking up what Bill and Sunny are putting down - beer and chips - I'll bring the Guacamole!

Ill bring the BBQ sauce. I hear those cattle make excellent brisket!

I will have to disagree that a PVP and patent are the same. PVP is really a formality and not much you can do if someone steals your variety. There are no real penalties. We had a breeder that left the company and took seed to start a new company. He stole many of our varieties and sells them for a couple of years until we find out and then he stops and claims ignorance to the PVP laws. It is very costly to sue people on a large scale.

If you have a PVP item competitors can still breed with it. If you have a patent on an item nobody else can breed with that material for life of patent. That is a huge difference espically because PVP are phenotypic descriptions. It is very easy to "remake" a lettuce variety and call it your own.
Yuma

This is more interesting than Clinton/Obama. There's a lot of ego floating around this forum. Aside from that, I hope there is nothing sinister going on at SSE. I've never been a member but have bought seeds from them from time to time. I tend to like Baker Creek, even more now i think. I do think that SSE did good work which now worrys me. Who exactly is Amy Goldman? What is her doctorate in? What employment has she had? What has she done that qualifies her to run the board at SSE, the NY Botanical Board, etc. As much as I liked the pictures in her books, they aren't real heavy horticultural issues. I saw a thread that had her as the keynote speaker at a Biotech conference...hmmmm. I guess the most disturbing thing, for me, is the influence that the chemical/seed companies might have. These questions ought to stir up some of the persoanlities here.

Amy Golden received her PhD in Child Psychology. According to several published sources she no longer works in that field.

She is from a wealthy New York family and her mothers trust, which I believe she is an executor of, has funded endeavors at the New York Bot. Garden and Seed Savers Exchange among other philanthropic causes. Her father was a billionaire real estate investor owning property in New York City.

I suggest you Google the following terms:
"Goldman, real estate, new york"

Ironically enough you will find information about a divorce and the ensuing issues between her family over money and the estate.

What the heck does any of that have to do with beer, chips, and BBQ???

So.... Anybody growing a garen this year? Or perhaps we're all just politicizing... dunno. Been a member of SSE since 2007, but started gardening long before that. With my ventures into cyberspace, my gardening endeavors have flourished through many avenues. One of which indeed is the Seed Savers Exchange. Befire that, I had sseds, dirt, and a primal drive to garden. None of these has been compromised by the "shakeup" at SSE. So sad to see gardeners squabbling about such, and in an election year to boot. There are much more serious issues to pontificate about, but is this really the forum?

Now on to the real stars of the show...Tomatoes.

Oops ..sorry... That was supposed to be garden, not garen, and also 2001, not 2007. Obviously I don't proofread anything. Sorry!

Oops ..sorry... That was supposed to be garden, not garen, and also 2001, not 2007. Obviously I don't proofread anything. Sorry!

*****

Not a problem Brian. And I'm delighted to see you back posting, which you usually do when the days get longer. LOL

I sent you an e-mail about a number of things including the green heart, not wanting it, but sharing info possibly about it.

And thanks also for your perspective in terms of saying;

(Now on to the real stars of the show...Tomatoes.)

Carolyn

Brainsander - I'm the person that had the original post for asking about Oxhearts - I'm also not interested in seed, but wonder if you can keep us/me posted about it's progress. I'm interested in hearing about it (not in growing it). Also interested in hearing about the white oxheart (again, don't want to grow it)... but would like to know your success and thoughts on it.

Thanks! Tom

Also interested in hearing about the white oxheart (again, don't want to grow it)... but would like to know your success and thoughts on it.

****

Tom, quite a few of my tomato friends have grown the White Oxheart which originated with Reinhard Kraft In Germany, and aside from the novelty of the shape for a white the taste is like most whites, that is, not much taste and on the bland to mild tasting side.

Carolyn

I did see it on Reinhards list quite a while back... I am not interested in either of them to grow - but am interested of course on the history/story of how it came to be, where did it come from, was it accidental or planful? AND as always interested in Oxhearts in general.

They'll be plenty of white oxhearts available at SSE soon once amy starts taking care of the cattle.

Touche'

What a bunch of crap..... i have recieved alot of help from these posts and would like to think i have passed alot on to others. I love to garden and love the idea of Seed Savers but hell this is a load of stuff ment for the compost pile.. Fusion you have given me good advise and i say thanks but i doubt i'll be back. so long YA'LL...

Wow, and to think I go to this forum to take a break from law school! This thread reads like a long case. If anyone seeks additional reading that mixes vegetables and law, I suggest Nix v. Hedden, where the Supreme Court legally defined the tomato as a vegetable.

This whole thing is very disheartening to me. Could the equation read:

$$$$$$$ + Lawyers = disaster

The whole thing is shameful.

Robin

I'm just thankful hogs weren't involved.

I so prefer beef BBQ over pork.

Though bacon is good.

: :
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wonder how hard it is to find a kosher butcher in NE Iowa?
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my question is what happened to the hammus alabamus breeding program.