S. minor is reputed to be hardier than T. fortunei. I have a number of sabals in containers that I haven't had the courage to plant outside yet, but will in the spring (I'm in 6b). I also have a windmill palm that I will never plant outdoors. It may not tolerate 0 degrees F. Meanwhile, sabals have been observed to survive temperatures of -10F or colder.

4 feet would be a bit tight for either species at maturity.

Sabal minor is definitely hardier than Trachycarpus fortunei but will never grow a trunk, grows very slowly, and I find them much less attractive. If you want a shrubby palm, a better bet is Rhapidophyllum hystrix, which is also slow growing but much hardier than either Sabal or Trachycarpus, and makes a very attractive clump with time. You might also consider Trachycarpus wagnerianus, which is about as hardy as T. fortunei but has smaller leaves.

It will be mornings like you will have tomorrow and the next to make the needle palm (Rhapidophyllum hystrix) your best bet, at least with respect to cold hardiness.

Walt

I've been wanting to get a needle palm, recognizing that it is the hardiest palm. Where is the best source?

Thanks everyone. For some reason I erroneously thought that trachycarpus was the needle palm. Thanks for straightening me out. Just how evil are these needles? I have to squeeze around that area periodically to do pond maintenance.

Walt - This weather is wicked. Headed to 2 degrees soon. I wish I lived in Florida!!

Cady:
Check put Plant Delights at

www.plantdelights,com

(I'm thinking of ordering some myself this spring -- even though I have two successful windmill palms that just made it through several days in the low teens.)

Thanks, John. I've heard good things about Plant Delights, but didn't know they sold needle palms. I'll check them out.

Needle palm needles are nasty-but they are only on the actual trunk, not on the leaf petioles. I've seen needles upwards of 4-5 inches pushing upwards out of the trunk.

I'm in northern Delaware and have great success with both.
These plants have withstood 0 deg. with no protection. I do
however cover them any time it rains or snows to keep them dry.
my coverings are removed asap. We have been locked in a hard freeze for weeks now and all of my plants are fine.

I would however lean toward the sabal minor on hardiness, as I
know a woman on cape cod Mass. growing on on the south side of
her home. This plant has survived several below 0 temps with only minimal foilage burn. She does not protect it either.

DMS,

Thanks! Just the kind of info I needed. I like the looks of the sabal the best, and Plant Delights sells one about the right size.

Also check Forest Farm.

Here is a link that might be useful: Forest Farm

Hi Watergal,

I am in Germantown , MD , zone 7a/6b. I have had a sabal palm in the ground since 1996. No protection, ever. It has had no more than a burnt leaf edge on the older fronds. It's a slow grower, about 3' high now, but growing faster. I didn't really pay attention to it first few years, now I water and fert regular. I have several more sabal minor seedlings and they are doing fine.

I also planted a "Bulgarian" trachy palm seedling in November of 2002 around Thanksgiving. They had been in a baggie with spagnum moss all summer. I finally planted it just before the winter from hell. No protection at all. It was about 6" high. It had a few burned leaf edges, bt no real damage. It doubled in size last summer.

I also had (note the past tense) hardy eucalyptus perriniana until Hurricane Isabel took it out last fall. I almost cried! It was 22' tall with a trunk caliper of about 4" and about 5 years old. Came through last winter like a champ- no winter protection on it either.

I have photos of all above if anyone interested. Please email me directly.

Experiment, just do it!!

Boca Joe

Here is a link that might be useful: Boca Joe's eucalyptus

Boca Joe;

I live in Va Beach and every large eucalyptis I know of bit the dust in the Hurricane. They had to be 10+ years old! Something to keep in mind if you live in an area that gets high winds.

For looks, I would rather go with a sabal personally, although I might not just stick to minor. I live in Poolesville, MD (z 6-7). Most of my palms are under 2' tall. Trachycarpus takil, needle, and sabal xtexensis came out with mild to moderate damage. I probably lost around 100 baby palms this year alone, but I am essentially weaning out the sissies and selecting the hardiest. Still, I will never go without protection for my palms again. Anti-dessicants next year. I think the most damage was due to drying air/winds.
4 Sabal Birmingham 1 gallons were definitely a disappointment, although no palm under a 5 gallon size should be considered safely hardy in either z 7 or 8. Uresana was burnt quite a bit, but no worse than a 5 gallon sabal Louisiana. Several T. Fortunei "Taylor form" 3 gallons had moderate damage too. My trachy Bulgarias are not much better than typical trachys. A couple 3 gallon washingtonia filifera cultivars survived pretty well with minor protection. Smaller ones fried.

Good luck.

Statistically, this is a small sample, but I planted a quite large needle palm with trunk in So Maryland near Chesapeake Bay and it died the first winter. On the other hand, trunkless needles, Sabal minor, Sabal etonia, and Trachycarpus have survived 10 to 20 years with little or no damage. Cycas taitungensis and a supposedly hardy variety of Dioone edulis have barely survived. Apparently the needle can't survive the exposure of its meristem. Merrill

I live in Stamford CT. inland from the water ,, I have had several trachycarpus and a needle palm in the ground for years ,, i ususally just put some burlp over them and then pile the snow on the them all winter ,, and uncover in the spring ...easy ,, VERY slow growing

Hi
I am looking to start a hardy palm garden in Baltimore,MD (in my backyard), and hope you can tell me where to find sources of hardy palms.

thanks
karl

Plant Delights Nursery - on the web or catalog

In Johnson City, TN (Zone 6a), there's two Windmill palms (T. fortunei) that have been growing in the ground for a number of years. They get no protection and are beautiful and about five feet tall altogether. We get down to 10°F about once or twice each winter and occasionally down to 0°F about every three or four years and these have done just fine. One person here in town had a Pindo palm (Butia capitata) for a number of years, but it died two years ago with an extended cold spell below freezing. I've not heard of anyone trying S. minor around here.

Maui4me,
There are several of us in TN growing cold hardy palms. Have you been to the TN forum? There is an ongoing discussion over there. This is my first year and coming up on my first winter with a few palms.

Rebecca

Sixflags America in Hanover, MD Zone: 6b/7a has alot of Windmill Palms and Musa Basjoo that were planted since 1995 and now they are huge and survive winters without any protection!! u should see it for yourself if u live in metro DC and Bmore area

right in the front of one of the buildings of the Smithsonian in DC there is a tall, 30' trachycarpus that is thriving without any protection at all ,,,,, I was looking at this winter one day when it was 11 degrees and it looked just happy to be there

I am hoping my Trachys make it through their first winter with protection. I planted them in April as 5 5 gallon and 1 1 gallon plants and hopefully they are establishing themselves enough to be strong for the winter. Any advice or tips?

You all in Poolesville and Germantown, Maryland are right across the Potomac River from me in Loudoun County. It is good to hear that your palms all did well without much protection. Tell me more of what you did to get the palms through their first winter.

The Virginian,

Your Trachys will do just fine in your zone. I over wintered a Windmill last winter with protection in zone 6 and it is now three times the size it was this time last year. This spring I planted two more. Soon I am going to post some updated pictures in the Palm forum and my plans for over wintering each Palm and see which works out the best. Good luck

If there was indeed a 30' specimen of trachycarpus fortunei in DC, I think it would have shown up on the other board (HP). Do you have a picture of it? Thanks.

I can tell you what happened to that palm as I spoke to one of the garden staff at the Smithsonian Castle a few weeks ago. It was planted one spring and seemed to do well into the late fall. When colder temperatures threatened in December, the gardener got nervous and wrapped the whole crown with large Christmas lights and sealed it off with plastic wrap to keep it dry. He left the lights on all winter and what he discovered was he fried it with too much heat and not enough ventilation. He admitted that it would have been better to leave the palm alone as it would have survived on its own. They are growing replacements in the greenhouse and when they reach 6-8 feet tall they will try again, this time with no Christmas lights and plastic. There is a 6 foot Trachycarpus Fortunei on the Independence Avenue side of the Air & Space Museum near the food court along with several Sabal Minors and Needle Palms that have been in the ground with no protection since 1987. I saw them on the same trip downtown and all of them look great. It gives me great hope mine will be fine in the spring.

Hey folks,

I don't agree with the Sabal minor is better than Trachy thing.

First off, in my zone, my experience over now 6 seasons shows that trachycarpus is a much better palm than sabal; WHY??? because Sabal grows so slowly here in Connecticut, that the winter burn outpaces growth, and the Sabal never looks impressive. Even with good protection
On the other hand, my Trachycarpus takil and fortunei are putting out 20 leaves or more a season. Even if I lose 1/2 to winterburn or other maladies, there is always a net of many leaves by the end of the summer and it always looks impressive. With good protection, I only lose 5/20 leaves, so the thing looks great,even coming out of winter

Respect!

DrZ

Since this old thread has resurfaced, a little more information on the hardy palms that are growing at the Smithsonian's Air & Space Museum: they were planted in 2000 or 2001, not in 1987 as stated above. Here are a few shots of the palms that I took this summer--sorry about the poor quality but it was a very bright sunny day:

Plant Delights is a good source for palms, but you can probably find T. fortunei for less money and a bigger plant on ebay or even at home depot once spring hits. I've grown both T. fortnei and Sabal minor and like the T. fortunei much better because it grows faster and I like the trunk. Once you get a truck going, it's easier to get around the fronds.

I got a trachycarpus fortunei 'windmill palm' & a rhapidophyllum hystrix 'needle palm' from Pungo Palm Nursery near Virginia Beach. Both were a nice size and the price wasn't bad. Both are in my garden and doing fine. Both survived low temps of 5 degrees F with little damage. Nice folks and worth the visit if you are in the area.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pungo Palm Nursery

I just stumbled across this thread and I am surprised no end at so many people in cold climates with a passion for palm trees!

I live in South Texas, on the Gulf Coast, and we are in zone 9. We love the palm trees, and I am finding more and more to plant in my small garden.

I don't know if the Queen Palm would survive in your climate, as it does quite well here, and we do have cold temps- usually in the teens- here too. It is a fast growing and beautiful palm tree. Mine is about 30' tall, and it has been in the ground about 4 years. It was planted there as a 5' specimen. I think the secret of it's growth is that we only water it with water from the pond- a koi pond.

Another that I am totally nuts about is the Pygmy Date Palm. It also is hardy for us. It is a nice palm to put in a pot as well.

I have just planted close to my pond a lovely Travelers Palm. It is exciting for me, a very nice specimen, and was given to me. The previous owner died, and her husband is not a gardener, and did not want it.

We grow the Windmill and the Pindo- the Pindo is one of my favorites. The Mexican Blue Fan is gorgeous, blue, blue, and heat and cold tolerant. It is good down to about 15 degrees. It would grow nicely in a big pot too.

Rhaphis is a favorite but I grow it in a pot, as it will put out runners and go everywhere. I also grow the Cardboard palm in a pot. I am nursing a Fishtail palm back to health now, as I almost lost it to cold last year.

Sorry I don't know the botanical names for you, but I am happy to know about you all.

Janie

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1301969}}