Kiev is RL, there is no PL version and shouldn't be one in circulation.

If it were me I'd pull out the PL ones and then confirm that the RL ones are actually Kiev when you see the fruits b'c you could have crossed seed.

What was the source of your seeds if you feel comfortable sharing that?

Carolyn

If it were me I would grow out the PL plants to see what they turned out to be. But, then again, I have cat genes so am always curious about things I don't know. The fact that you have PL seedlings from a RL variety does not necessarily indicate that they are crossed seed. A few years ago I grew out a fabulously-flavored large red tomato called Hungarian Giant (from Geza in Hungary). It is a PL variety but after a few growouts I got some plants with RL foliage. They turned out to be identical to the PL Hungarian Giant fruits and subsequent growouts from seeds saved from the RL plants have grown true. Therefore, what I got was not crossed seed but a foliage mutation.

Yes, the proper thing to do when an off type seedling appears from seed is to cull it and grow the correct expression for variety perpetuation. But I would make sure the vines you save and grow out are indeed completely correct before distributing seed under the assigned varietal name.

However, I am not one to follow proper procedure in this regard all the time. Yes, I do not collect and redistribute incorrect expressions under names like "Brandywine Sudduth RL" (just a hypothetical example), BUT out of curiosity, YES I have grown out incorrect expressions from time to time just to see what the heck is up.

For example, Andrey B (from Belarus) sent me three seeds for Gigant-10 Novikova (aka Novikov's Giant) a few years ago. This was when everyone was saying how great a tomato Novikov's Giant is and that it had this intermediate leaf form somewhere between regular leaf and potato leaf. Pictures I had seen of the leaf gave it the appearance of some sort of broad lettuce leaf look.

So I planted all three seeds. Two sprouted. One was the normal leaf shape and the other was the smooth potato leaf shape. Only having two examples of this tomato seedling, I grew out both. The fruit was identical on each of the plants. Identical. And I have pictures I'll post later.

But I haven't distributed seed from either of those two plants. Because in fact, how can I be assured they are in fact Gigant-10 Novikova? They were very good tomatoes, though.

YEs John, it's possible there could be a foliage mutation but I was asked what the leaf form should be, and it should be RL.

And with PL variants popping up in each of the cups it can't be a stray seed , and of course it could be a foliage mutation, which is why I asked about the seed source.

You only saw a foliage change after growing Hungarian Giant out for several years.

If the seeds being referred to here were from a trade I could understand there being some PL seedlings due to possible crossed seed, but if from a commercial place where they produce their own seed or buy wholesale off the shelf then I wouldn't expect it and would suggest that they be contacted.

And for sure, if someone has the space and the interest a wrong leaf form for a variety can be grown out and many do so.

I used to think that going from RL to PL meant two separate mutations since there's homozygous dominant, then to heterozygous where RL is still dominant, then to homozygous recessive which is PL, but when there was a nice thread about this a few years ago it was pointed out that other kinds of mutations could also do that and several genes could be involved and so one can't always equate a PL variant with an original RL.

I think the best example of that is Cherokee Purple ( RL) and CP PL found by Jere Gettle at Baker Creek and Spudakee, another CP PL found elsewhere. Not all who grow these see the PL variants as being the same as the original RL.

It's even harder for me to equate an RL with an original PL b'c it means a back mutation of some kind that has to reverse completely the forward mutation in terms of DNA sequences.

I think I saw that once, PL to RL, with all the many varieties I've grown but I'll be darned if I can think of that variety right now. Sigh.

Carolyn

True. If I had three cups with four seeds in each (12 seeds total), and three seeds (or even if 4) came up potato leaf and the other 9 came up regular leaf, I'd immediately assume I was growing F2 seeds from a RL x PL cross (25% PL being expected in the F2). And I would grow out as many of those as I had garden space or pots for just to see what the other recombining segregants expressed in fruit shapes and colors.

If you saw RL and PL, unless the PL was an errant seed from something else, then you got seed of at least an F2 generation ie PL's will not show up until the second generation. This means that even though RL's may look like what is being described as Kiev, the RL's would not be true Kievs (think of them as a love child with an unknown daddy - maybe you can get Maury to pay for finding out who the father is).

It's up to you to decide what you want to do about it. Just remember, it's NOT Kiev anymore.

IF a mutation did occur it would likely ONLY be one seed. If someone grows out RL's and finds several PL's I would not suspect a mutation at all but rather a cross (and again at least the 2nd generation away from the cross). A homozygous mutation is an identical mutation of both the paternal and maternal alleles. For that to happen before the cross in several instances is unlikely. Since each seed represents a fertilized ovule it is highly unlikely that even several seeds would mutate that way. Since its a homozygous mutation (c,c), the mutation would more likely occur after fertilization when each embryo is independent of the others. Still, for several seeds to do so and just be a mutation for PL only, spontaneous or induced is highly unlikely.

IÂve been thinking about this thread and beyond the planting (and expecting) one thing and getting another it raises an interesting point what are you growing tomatoes for?

If youÂre only in it for growing yummy tomatoes than whatÂs the harm in planting whatever comes up? (As long as you arenÂt running around sharing something that you know isnÂt Kiev and saying itÂs Kiev.) In this case, why NOT grow it and NOT destroy the clearly non-Kiev(ers)?? And what if what comes up is a pointy-red (which I think thatÂs what Kiev is?) tomato that looks just like Kiev? Is it still not a Kiev and when is it decidedly okay for a mutation to occur?? Makes me wonder also at what point does it NOT become the variety youÂre supposed to be growing  as an example I was talking about my dislike for Purple Calabash  and someone said they liked it BUT they only liked one that isnÂt ruffled and is much darker when does it stop being Purple Calabash?? I mean the purple calabash I had is ruffled and AWFUL. This was not ruffled and tasted good (reportedly). KelloggÂs breakfast is KelloggÂs breakfast weather it be potato leaf or regular leaf  and same with Cherokee purple  who makes that ÂdecisionÂ? ItÂs okay for CP and KB but not Kiev?

Just thinking out loud  out of turn probably.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I double checked and I have 12 seedlings, of which four are potato leaf....none of the other varieties I've planted this year are potato leaf, so I can't see any chance I've mixed seed by mistake. The seed source is not from trade with an individual;I paid for them. I've got a limited number of containers, well spoken for by more varieties than I should probably have to begin with, so growing out the potato leaf will not be without sacrifice, if I decide to do it....decisions, decisions....

Chalstonsc,

How many seeds do you have left unplanted from that same envelope? If you have 12 or more seeds, I will gladly pay you what you paid for the whole package plus send you an SASE, etc., and even throw in some interesting seeds to boot.

Let me know: tomatohead48@hotmail.com

Yes, I'm with PV on this. The rest of the seeds in that packet are too 'precious' to toss. We may well have either a foliage mutation or great new variety that can be destalilized if some of the seeds are crossed seeds. Please don't toss the remaining seeds, and if you don't have room for all of the PL plants consider offering them to neighbors, friends or co-workers.

Thanks for the additional thoughts.

Hoosier- please look in your email, I've got enough seeds to send. If it's really good, maybe you can offer some seeds to all the respondees, under your given name, of course. Thanks for the offer, but no money required!

John4- I've got some cat genes too and will grow one out!

I think the best example of that is Cherokee Purple ( RL) and CP PL found by Jere Gettle at Baker Creek and Spudakee, another CP PL found elsewhere. Not all who grow these see the PL variants as being the same as the original RL.

hmmmm, Bill and John, that Spudakee dude, that name just sounds so familiar... Naw, I must be having another blonde moment. ;)