Has anyone used the coir and coco husk chips sold at North Haven Garden or would recommend them?

I haven't used expanded shale in a container. ES is to help the drainage and aeration of nasty clay. Since my containers have good drainage because I use potting soil and have holes in the bottom, I wouldn't spend the money on ES.

I think ES is pretty good in the ground, but not for containers.

Here is a link that might be useful: Creative Soul

I use a mix of mulch/Haydite (ES)/Perlite for my containers (2/2/1 for my area). I grow fruit trees in them. I would disagree completely with happyintexas. Expanded shale retains moisture in it's micropores. Also, it, along with the Perlite retains their structure in the container. If you are planting annuals, it is probably not necessary and you can use regular potting soil. If you are trying to use the mix for any length of time, the peat in the potting soil breaks down too quickly and impedes drainage. I don't know how long it takes coir to break down. With pine bark mulch, I'm shooting for three years before repotting.

I "screen" it by poring it from one container into another in front of a fan (or on a windy day). If you use it with Coir, you should also add Perlite. Start with a 1/1/1 mix of the tree and then adjust for water retention. If you need the mix to hold more moisture, add more ES and less Perlite. If the mix is too wet, vice versa.

My understanding of ES is that is close to pH neutral. I've not adjusted for pH with any of my trees. I'm guessing the pH of the water going into the container is more of a factor.

~james

I know one nursery that is using ES in the tree container mix. I'm not sure what you mean by alkalinity of ES since I've only read that they are neutral in pH. Do you mean to say they are not acidic enough for your plants?

Happyintexas- which potting soil do you use? Pretty much all potting soil that i;ve seen are not suitable for growing trees. They hold too much water and not enough porosity. I think in another forum greenchem mentioned about growing a citrus tree. perhaps greenchem should tell us what he's wanting to grow in the container. Like James, I don't use peat and I use exclusively screened pine bark fines, turface,ES and perlite (mainly for starter seed mix) and a bit of cedar flakes (in place of peat).

I use expanded shale in long-term containers, as well. I mixed it with peat moss and compost for a potted rose and gardenia.

I've also used it in short-term containers, and compost the used mix at the end of the season. The shale then gets added to the garden beds the next year.

I have used ES in my beds... I inadvertently did a comparison. Half a bed with, half without... My basic soil is black gumbo. The bed "with" had MUCH bigger plants than the bed "w/o". (Mostly impatiens in this case.) I recommend it to help improve soil texture (along with any kind of added humus), especially when you consider ES doesn't decompose and need replaced in a couple years. Supposedly, it sucks up, then slow releases nutrients. I don't know... I like it...

I used coca husks in California. Smelled great and they sort of got sticky when wet and stayed in place.... HOWEVER... dogs may find the husks tasty, and chocolate and dogs is dangerous! I think there are cheaper, safer options.

Coir is great, but pricey. It lasts longer than my usual humus, but it's not any better than regular mulch or humus. IMHOP

I have used ES in my beds... I inadvertently did a comparison. Half a bed with, half without... My basic soil is black gumbo. The bed "with" had MUCH bigger plants than the bed "w/o". (Mostly impatiens in this case.) I recommend it to help improve soil texture (along with any kind of added humus), especially when you consider ES doesn't decompose and need replaced in a couple years. Supposedly, it sucks up, then slow releases nutrients. I don't know... I like it...

I used coca husks in California. Smelled great and they sort of got sticky when wet and stayed in place.... HOWEVER... dogs may find the husks tasty, and chocolate and dogs is dangerous! I think there are cheaper, safer options.

Coir is great, but pricey. It lasts longer than my usual humus, but it's not any better than regular mulch or humus. IMHOP

I don't do long term containers, only annuals and the occasional where-am-I-going-to-plant this holding for a few months. Because of cost I would not have reached for ES, but you guys have educated me to more possibilities. Kinda fun to learn something new.

It would help if the original poster had indicated what he would be planting in his containers, so that answers can be more specific.

Here is a link that might be useful: Creative Soul

Thanks everyone for contributing and sharing your preferences and experiences of using ESCS and coconut products. Im soliciting contexual user feedback and reviews because although I like what I read about the high air-and-water-holding capacity, free draining, structural stable and inert characteristics of light weight ESCS aggregates and coir and coco husk chips and would like to use both, I have not used either one them.

Long-term potting or short-term costs are not first considerations to me as long as they are relatively within my means. I figure itÂs my responsibility with the horticultural method chosen to learn from the plants I adopted in supplying and meeting the horticultural requirements necessary to maximize their beauty, health, productivity, and longevity which would include any repotting that is needed. Moreover, any monetary expenditure would be win-win both for a plant and a gardener and would still be economy as long as the horticultural success is reproducible with reduced intervention and labor and that the expenses or costs can be recovered within a reasonable time.

I grow many different species of plants but mostly ornamentals. I grow some leafy vegetables, bulbs, lilies, and strawberries (which require good to perfect drainage), ornamentals such as roses and gardenias, annuals and perennials, and fruit trees such as lemons and avocado. Happy to report that my gardening knowledge and successes are both growing :) Though I am fairly satisfied with making my own soilless potting mixes and soil fertility and plant nutritional management, I hope to make another leap this coming year and with your help by building on your successes and failures. My soilless mixes are similar to what many of you are familiar with or are using. My required lightweight soilless mixes are made up a high ratio of composted bark fines (landscape conditioner) and perlite with varying amounts of needed chemical CRF, inorganic and organic amendments, greenwaste compost, or soluble fertilizers as I am gardening high on a balcony and intensively (in area unit) with the least amount of labor for highest quality and yields.

Most ESCS suppliers and associated commissioned scientists advertise or claim that ES is pH neutral or that it can be easily adjusted, so if you research and read some of the actual manufacturer specs and MSDS or independent lab test results on ESCS, the stabilized pH range for the aggregates is consistent above neutral and very much higher - 100 to 1000 plus above neutral as the pH scale is logarithmic. IÂm not entirely concerned with such characteristic high pH of ESCS since I know something about fertilizers and plant nutrient management and can always look things up to pH down the growing medium if need be perhaps even at pH 9-10. However, at a highly alkaline ESCS-based root medium, the maintenance of a specific acidic range needed and desired by most plants and especially for acid loving plants like gardenias and strawberries may or may not be feasible or when other alternatives exist. In a short-term horticultural experiment on ESCS and with mixed results, John Sloan of Texas Agricultural Experiment Station suggested a high pH of ESCS may be a contributory variable or cause for the observed reduced growth in certain plant species in the experiment. On the other hand, it sounds like ESCSÂs characteristic high pH has not posed a problem in your experiences.

Because both coir and CHC (coconut husk chips) are used in greenhouse productions of orchids, roses, lilies, and gerbera daisies and because coco products tested in greenhouse conditions lasted 2-3 times longer than bark, peat, and sawdust and often with exceptional root growth and yields by comparison in many plant species and in various growing medium comparison trials (not all), I was initially intending to use 50% -80% ESCS and coco husk chips/coir to replace using composted bark fines altogether especially since there can be some good amount of shrinkage even with my high perlite bark fines mix. Moreover, using ESCS, coir, and perlite would eliminate the hated chores of recycling, pasteurizing, separating, and composting old bark fines and perlite and carrying multiple big bags of bark fines as tall and as heavy as I am up several flights of stairs yearly.

However, given the tested readings on salinity (ECE) and Na+ on expanded shale and both are not the best and higher than pumice, its likely high pH, and the cumulative weight wet and dry (on my large balcony), I am questioning whether I should use it at all in containers or just use it as a mulch around and over the bulbs. Pumice is a possible alternative and by comparison has a lower ECE and pH profile, but the pH range is still at 8 (or 10x above neutral). Pumice seems heavier than ESCS, and its cumulative weight of pumice in containers (dry or wet) would be an issue for my balcony and for someone who weighs less than 100 lbs to move just one small bag.

Perlite and coir/CHC may have to be the backbone of my mix instead of ESCS. You think they will produce comparable success and yields?

My general school of thought stems from two different events...

I use to be an avid B&W photographer and belong to several forums on the subject. Many times it is asked "What is the best film/developer combination?" Everybody has their opinion as to which is best. Some even go so far as to say someone else's best is the worst. It became very evident as people used a certain combination over and over again and learned it's peculiarities and learned to adjust for them... that was the best combination for them.

At a Master Gardener's plant sale a couple of years ago, I sat in on a tomato growing seminar. Someone in the audience asked the presenter, "Which tomato has the best flavor?". The response was "Any variety tomato which is perfectly ripe will be better than any variety which is not."

I think that any system which you maximize is going to perform better than one you don't. Why throw away the knowledge you've already gained? You already have experience with pine bark/Perlite. Use what you already know and make small changes. You could change out half of your containers to use coir or husk instead of pine bark for comparison. You could even take one or two of each and add some ES, then see if you notice a difference.

I still think (I don't have actual proof) that water pH is going to be more of a factor than the pH of your growing mix components. Having said that, I am new to blueberries this year and was thinking of leaving the ES out and using a 5p Mulch: 2p Perlite mixture to grow them in, then use vinegar to acidify the water. Unless someone has a better idea, this will be my start point.

~james

Thanks James. I'm with you about making small changes.

It pays to do some digging before acting. I knew expanded shale, clay, lava rocks have a history in hydro and gravel culture but never thought about it much until I read a review about the pros/cons of using lava rocks last night. Apparently it's a drag to scrub, clean, and sterilize in order to reuse lava rocks. Expanded shale looks better and better by the minute!

Looks like I can always soak and wash and condition ES in pH balanced water for a few days if need be to remove high salts and adjust the pH. However, it doesn't look like I need to be concerned with the pH and salinity of ES in containers by your collective experiences. Local gardening centers (and hydroponic stores) which supply ES and coir often prove to be disappointingly commercial and clueless about the specs of their products they sell and the fundamentals about soilless container gardening, so I can't really count on their expertise. I'll keep digging. This whole learning experience educating myself about ES reminded me another secret desire of mine of wanting to experiment with ES that is to build an oxygenated grow box using ES and hydro-culture.

What about Turface?

To the best of my knowledge, Turface MVP and Haydite are similar enough to be interchangeable.

I agree that many nursery personnel have limited information, however I am finding there are a few (and maybe more and more as the years go by) nursery owners/workers who are becoming familiar with the science behind the growing mix.

This post motivated me to buy a bale of compressed coir today (Mulch Block). The nursery had a bale they soaked to expand in a wheelbarrow. It seemed a little coarse for use in a container, but I'll try it on a few trees to see how it does.

~james

Hi James,

Is Mulch Block a brand name? Does it say what is its country or origin (for process/production) and distributor on the package by chance?

Did your nursery or the coir label indicate how it should be pretreated or used? I understand pretreating and washing coir with Ca, Mg, and gypsum prior to planting (as well as regular added supplementation) may be necessary and recommended.

Does anyone have a view, recommendation, or comparative experiences about coco product use you would like to share?

I hope to get some confirmation from a Texas ES source soon (hope my spring bulbs can wait).

Mulch block I believe is from Sri Lanka and I have decided I couldn't justify it use in container culture. I did break it up and soak it and rinse it several times and feel that at best it might be of use in 10 gallon and larger tree production but the cost is too prohibitive and pine bark is more readily available and much less costly.

All this being said I have no proof that it is salt ridden or that it couldn't be useful. I just feel better with using the coir I get from cocochoice.com. It comes in block and in much smaller bricks. I believe they may be making some head way into the Dallas market and I know he (Anvi) my saleperson has been working on some bigger restoration project in San Antonio. I have been using it on a limited basis for propagation (cuttings) and mixed in other media (bark, peat moss, turface, expanded shale. I have not seen much for CA or Mg probems but use gypsum and epsom salts as part of my mix and /or part of my fert regime.
I would also like to add that I haven't seen any problems with the expanded shale I have mixed at 1-1-1 ratio with peatmoss and perlite. Still need to try it on a range of different plants and or trees to tell any more than that at this point.
I like the idea of its use in longer term over 1 year containers and or where extra weight and drainage is useful or needed. It is cheaper for me than turface which I also have found quite useful but expensive for several applications I would like to use it for.
Lava sand (from Gardenville) seem to have too many fines for several container apps I would otherwise use it for. I used cinder (lava sand) in Hawaii for all of our nursery fruit trees with great success and if I could find a more uniform size and at more reasonable pricing I would be a real happy camper. We would use 1 or 2 (15) yard dumptrucks full of cinder each year and I still feel it is the best inert breathable media for containers I have ever used. Turface seems to be the closest to it so far and then expanded shale (Nature's Guide) next lava sand (Gardenville) last.

I do sell all of this products at the garden center I manage so it has to pass my growing tests at minimum before I will offer it for sale to my valuable customers.

I do also like all of these products for raised beds in various combinations for different planting schemes. Veggie or landscape all these products have some excellent benefits for longer duration planting situations IMHO.
I hope this adds something useful to the thread.
Happy Growing David

Very much so, David! I appreciate your spirit, knowledge, and input.

Given expanded shale's weight even if the alkalinity isn't a major issue, I think I may still have to use a good amount of perlite, sponge rock, or CHC with coir in my situation.

I was wondering how coir from the Philippines performed since I heard they have a long history of growing things in coco.

Did Anvi by chance mention to you how Redpath Riococo rated or in comparison with Choicecoco? North Haven Garden is carrying Riococo.

I got a loose bag (1 cu. ft.) of Rio Rocco. It was much more expensive to buy loose as opposed to compressed. I didn't pursue after that. I am always looking for the best bang for the quality buck.
I would email choicecoco and see if they have someone that retails close to you and do some price and growing tests this year and make your choice based on your own experiences. I did talk with Anvi last week and their main office is in Lewisville now. They were warehousing closer to Austin last year. Good Luck and ....
Happy Growing David