How much did you fertilize them? I know over fertilizing is a common cause of little or no fruit and big lush vines.

> How much did you fertilize them?

Not much.

I planted them in compost & steer manure and a little fertilizer when they were at the 16" stage.

I'm wondering if cool nights are preventing the blossoms from setting.

Not only too much N as was just mentioned above but also growing in too rich soil or container mix if you're growing some of them in containers.

Too much N or too rich soil can inhibit blossom formation and/ or fruit set or both. Do you see the normal amount of blossoms that you might expect ?

And it makes no difference if you're growing hybrids or heirlooms.

What happens when conditions encourage vegetative plant growth such as mentioned above, is that almost all energy is going into that vegetative cycle and keeping the plants from going into the sexual cycle of blossom formation and fruit set.

Carolyn

Growing them in "compost & steer manure and a little fertilizer" would explain it IMO. Way too high in nitrogen while possibly low in phosphorus and potassium. Minerals? Micronutrients? No soil if in ground? No soil-less potting mix if in containers?

All that N gets you lush, huge, dark green jungle plants - and little or no fruit - everytime.

Dave

> All that N gets you lush, huge, dark green jungle plants -
> and little or no fruit - everytime.

Strange that with the *identical* conditions, I repeatedly got BIG outputs of the drugstore varieties like Early Girl and Roma, even when they were growing side by side last year.

What's that all about?

This year's planting:

Caspian Pink
Momotaru
Cherokee Purple
Black Krim
Jetsetter
Heatwave

I don't think these are all heirloom , probably wrong , usually am.
CDGTXS

I'm not an expert on varieties, but I'm not understanding some of the labels here. These varieties are categorized as "heirloom and more exotic varieties:" Caspian Pink, Momotaru, Cherokee Purple, Black Krim, Jetsetter, Heatwave.

Three of those, however, are hybrids: Momotaro, Jetsetter, and Heatwave. Heatwave dates from 1990, and Jetsetter was released in 1998, so neither one is exactly an heirloom hybrid (for those who measure heirloom status solely by the age of the variety). Admittedly, Momotaro's Japanese, so it might be considered exotic for that reason, but I'm under the impression it's widely grown in the U.S.

And what's exotic about Jetsetter or Heatwave? They're simply two of Petoseed's many commercial varieties (and apparently provide a decent enough crop in commercial field production).

Similarly, Early Girl and Roma are called "drugstore varieties." Early Girl is a hybrid; I can't find a date for it. But Roma is OP, and every bit as much an heirloom as, say, Cherokee Purple.

You are right CDGTXS - Jetsetter and Heatwave are hybrids. The other 4 are open pollinated.

golodkin - as a general rule heirloom varieties do not produce as heavily as hybrids do. There are many exceptions to that but it holds up as a very general rule.

Also, as a general rule one cannot compare different varieties in terms of production because there are just too many other variables. But without knowing a great deal more about your specific growing conditions (variety name, planting date, container or in-ground, growing medium specifics, fertilization routine, type of fertilizer used, amounts, etc.) all we can do is offer an educated guess based on the info available.

Steer manure is exceptionally high in N. It is not a commonly used soil amendment except in small amounts and it definitely isn't commonly used as a straight growing medium. Same goes for compost - a great amendment but not an ideal growing medium. A container full of nothing but steer manure and compost would be an exceptionally rich growing medium and likely to produce very few blooms and few fruit. On the other hand a planting hole in a garden that was amended with a small amount of steer manure and compost before planting would be a totally different thing.

So, based on the info you have offered so far, the most likely explanation for the large "lush jungle of barren vines" is an excess of nitrogen fertilization either from the steer manure plus compost or from added fertilizers of an unknown type and amount.

The fact that other varieties apparently tolerated identical conditions well can be somewhat explained by being different varieties with different DTM.

Lastly, many so-called heirlooms (since we don't know the varieties from last year) are late season DTM producers. Even in Sacramento summer heat and humidity affect fruit set and that is why your ideal planting times differ so much from the rest of the country. Late season varieties have to be babied through the worst of the summer heat so that they can begin to produce in early fall. That is their genetic make-up. Some of your listed varieties for this year (Caspian Pink, CP, and Black Krim) are all late-season 80-90 day varieties so you will likely not see any fruit from them until much later and then only if the weather at approx. 60 days old cooperates.

For next year you might want to consider planting much earlier and using more early and mid-season varieties rather than all late season ones.

Would a reputable nursery sell varieties unsuited for the local conditions?

Yes, as they sell what is wanted and right or wrong, assume the buyer is informed as to proper planting times etc.

Dave

I don't believe composted steer manure is any higher in nitrogen (N) than composted horse manure. See Chart

I regularly use composted horse manure both in raised beds and containers and grow tomatoes with great results for several years.

And certainly there are manures higher in N than steer manure and still used with good results as tomato fertilizer.

What am I missing with regard to steer manure being too high in N for tomato plants?

What am I missing with regard to steer manure being too high in N for tomato plants?

"I planted them in compost & steer manure and a little fertilizer when they were at the 16" stage."

If we are to take this literally, there was no soil, potting mix, or anything else involved: solely compost, steer manure, and fertilizer.

Golodkin, what are your nighttime lows? It's still early in the year and cool temps can reduce fruit set. Not a problem for you soon, but might have been an issue still in May?

I'm in Vacaville, and I think the problems/answer is, in that magical nighttime temp above 55, and daytime below 90, just when the tomatoes are about to flower, that is the answer for many heirlooms. This could be the year! Keep the plants flowering, consider shade cloth, and good luck!

Keep the plants flowering

****

I asked above about whether there were blossoms and didn't get an answer.

There's a big difference between no to very few blossoms appearing and blossoms appearing and then not setting fruit due to blossom drop as a consequence of lack of pollenization.

Carolyn

What am I missing with regard to steer manure being too high in N for tomato plants?

Unlike cow manure, the products sold as steer manure are almost always collected at livestock yards, holding pens and such. For that reason they have much higher levels of urine in them and substantially higher levels of nitrogen than either cow or horse. The usual rating seen on steer manure is 2.0-3.0 vs. cow manure at 0.5. Steer manure typically also contains higher levels of antibiotics, hormones, and misc. other meds but that is a different issue.

But the point I was trying to make above is "how much" steer manure? A container or raised bed full of it and compost is a very different thing then adding a handful of it to a hole in the garden dirt and mixing it in. The OP said I planted them in compost & steer manure and a little fertilizer. Thus all the questions for more specific details above.

And if the real problem is blossom drop rather than no blooms at all then excess nitrogen plays just as big a role as air temps do.

Dave

"Unlike cow manure, the products sold as steer manure are almost always collected at livestock yards, holding pens and such. For that reason they have much higher levels of urine in them and substantially higher levels of nitrogen than either cow or horse."

When fresh and wet that's true. When dried, the difference is minimal. When composted, there is no difference.

The nitrogen present in collected feed lot manure from urine is highly volatile and mostly "burns off" when composted. That goes for composted manure whether from feed lots, horse stalls, dairy cow pens, whatever.

"The usual rating seen on steer manure is 2.0-3.0 vs. cow manure at 0.5."

Not on the analyses I've seen. But then maybe you're right. I just haven't seen proof.

"Steer manure typically also contains higher levels of antibiotics, hormones, and misc. other meds but that is a different issue."

Yes, that would have absolutely nothing to do with the claim that steer manure is "exceptionally high in N."

"If we are to take this literally, there was no soil, potting mix, or anything else involved: solely compost, steer manure, and fertilizer."

So?

I'm in Sacto and planted 6 toms (juliett, sungold, cp, brandywine, capasian pink and stuffed something) in a raised bed and 4 additional heirlooms in 2 earthboxes (2 per box)....The hybrids are happy campers-- now up to 5 ft and tons of blossoms and small fruits. Whereas my heirlooms are around 4 ft in height and have an average of 10 blossoms and fruits per a plant so far.

The plants are in the southern portion of the garden and receive an average of 8 hours of sun per a day.

Last fall I prepped the raised bed with MG garden soil, worm casting and lime and let it do it's business until I planted in April.

I apply MG Tomato food once a week to the toms in ground and water deeply once a week. The plants are lush and doing fantastic. However, I need to remove the suckers due to the limited space in the raised bed.

I'm wondering if perhaps there is too much N in the soil? I have done that once--used steer manure along with soil and ended up with tomato hedges--no fruits. Live and learn!

TwlightCA

With the exception of Heatwave, I have grown all those tomato varieties in Sacramento, and although I am late (again! sigh) in getting all my varieties in the ground, I did get my Jetsetter planted a month ago, and it is covered with green fruit right now. So don't blame Sacramento, or the weather here! It has nothing to do with temperatures, because even when it hits 110 here, I still get tomatoes. I completely agree with the others who say you have WAY overfertilized them. Most people don't realize that compost IS fertilizer, or rather to be more accurate, compost also feeds the soil, but at a lesser concentration. So you planted your tomatoes in fertilizer and MORE fertilizer.

Somehow most people have the idea you have to DO major work to make your tomatoes grow--I blame the fertilizer companies' marketing, like Miracle Grow. The truth is, yes, nutrients get depleted out of the soil if you plant the same crop over and over, but most home yards haven't been growing heavy feeding crops (like corn) for 50 years. With the exception of new housing developments, most established backyards would grow tomatoes just fine without any fertilizer, or with just putting an inch of mulch surrounding the plants when they are first planted.

I would suggest you dig one up and transplant it into an area of your yard where you HAVEN'T done anything to it, and see if you have any tomatoes in a couple of months, and report back. I would suggest experimenting with the Jetsetter, because it does the best in your list at resisting nematodes.

Carla in Sac

Well of course sautemom could be right, and I agree, there are many tomato varieties that set fruit in heat ( I think jetsetter is among them), but I can't agree that temps of 90 to 110 don't effect fruit set. I have grown Caspian pink for more than 5 years, and I DO think they will set fruit in heat when other heirlooms don't, but not like an early season variety that might set fruit before it gets really hot. So as carolyn suggested above, I will have to wait to hear from the OP, to hear if there are flowers are not. If you are getting flowers, but they dehisce, and drop before they set fruit, high and low temps COULD be the problem.

If you did use compost and steer manure and MG on the plants, is it too late? Can you just water from now on and get fruit? I think I have been doing the same thing: not getting enough fruit from over fertilizing.

You might try planting one plant in regular potting soil. Were you using all that manure when the plants were producing?

This is interesting

Here is a link that might be useful: Climatic Zones for tomato Varieties

If you're getting blossoms, and the fruit are setting, you might try shaking the plant a bit to see if it will pollinate. That's what I did although I have no idea if it made a difference. However, I got decent fruit set even though I'm a noobie and started a thread before where I asked why my plants were dying.