The worms in the Inn ate the mold. The beans are breaking down, but still recognizable. I resisted the impulse to take them out to mold further.

The worms in what is supposed to be the fungi bin, ate most of the oat bran and will get more (oat bran) today.

No fungal hyphae in either bin yet.

I do not know that I have seen thick fungal hyphae - I get other kinds of mold in there, and once a very icky slime mold (which I guess isn't technically a mold).

What I _do_ get that is quite noticeable sometimes, especially on shredded cardboard but also through layers, is what really looks to be actinomyces hyphae. I wonder if that's what your source meant? Looks like a fungus but is actually a bacteria. Very thick and omnipresent towards the top of the bin. Seems to coincide with stuff on the top that was quite wet drying out to just damp or even a bit dryer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actinomyces

Of course, I suppose could be a fungus. Has also been accompanied by a very, very strong and rich mushroom smell (and earth smell when watered). Smells great.

Again, just my own experience, but this has generally been in parts of the bin that have already been well composted by the worms - or at least, aged material - but still goodly amounts of bedding like cardboard. Basically I assume cellulose, lignin and other things that are more difficult to break down.

By no means omnipresent though, and not at all points in the composting cycle. I would not worry if you don't get it.

Ah wait - forgot that in two conditions I've seen lots of hyphae too - lots of leaves, and mixed (green) yard waste in an outdoor bin. I believe the latter is just a normal rot. The hyphae in rotting leaves I think would also have actinomycetes, but also other fungi.

I have heard different things about the wisdom of breaking up hyphae. Short form, I only disturb them when I think the pile needs air or some other good reason, once in a while, but not to break up the hyphae. They seem to reestablish themselves reasonably quickly.

Hope this helps.

Thank you. I'll read up on the leads you offer.
When the maple leaves fall, I'll glean leaves.

My "sources" (I like the concept ) agree that it's better not to disturb the fungal hyphae.

This is where my sources, Ingham, Chalker-Scott, & Solomon come TOGETHER !

I think you have to scroll and scrutinize to find the mycorrhizae pdf.

Here is a link that might be useful: mycorrhizae fungi

This post was edited by barbararose21101 on Thu, Sep 11, 14 at 11:36

I wouldn't worry too much about disturbing the hyphae - I mean, don't overdo it, but keep in mind that you still want to keep the stuff from getting matted and all stinky. I've found this to be an issue for leaves in particular. Turning once in a while (once a week?) is probably enough, but depending on the stage of composting - more earlier, less later. Again, I think the hyphae will reestablish themselves quickly enough (and themselves will become food for other things in there).

This is especially true if the fungi you want are aerobic (need air) - which I think is probably the case. Maybe your sources will tell you. The actinomycetes definitely need air.

0.01%?!?!?!

That's one-ten-thousandth. Izzat really the figure she intended?

Paul

How would I know ? ; )

I'll find out one way or another eventually I hope.

First to Otis:

If the precomposting oatmeal (is it by itself ?) is fermenting, that means it is yeasty. Right ? So I'm looking up yeast and fungi . . . and my question at the moment is: Is there a lid, tight or not, on the plastic ice cream container ? This is a brewing question I guess. I brewed a quarter cup of oat bran for about a week. The worms have about consumed that. So now I cooked a cup of rolled oats (cheaper) and will brew that in a gallon glass jar. I have an air pump I can aerate it with if that would improve its appeal to worms. I'll know in a week or so whether aerated oats gruel ferments.

I want to make a point about learning -- tho it may seem to some to be off topic. In My Experience (IME) I learn best when I have a question to start with. It's as if the information needs a neuron to connect to. When I have A Question, Other Information -- which would be valuable may not get noticed or connected. . . until that Question comes up.

Otis wrote he doesn't give the gruel to the worms until it stops bubbling. Why ? What does active fermentation "express" or "tell" about what is going on with the fungi/yeast ?

I donâÂÂt know what fermenting the oats would do âÂÂforâ the worms except add a âÂÂtonâ of yeast cells to the gruel, assuming that the worms would eat the yeast more readily/quickly than just the âÂÂplain oldâ oats. What about all of the CH2OH (alcohol) that the fermentation produces? I canâÂÂt imagine that it is âÂÂgoodâ for the worms. I suppose it would âÂÂoff-gasâ in some time, but I doubt that time would be âÂÂtrivialâÂÂ.

IâÂÂm not trying to be âÂÂcontraryâÂÂ, but when IâÂÂm told to âÂÂdoâ something, I need to understand âÂÂwhyâÂÂ. Otherwise I donâÂÂt do it until I figure it out for myself, or someone comes up with a reasonable explanation that doesn't involve a lot of hand-waving, smoke-blowing, mirrors, or âÂÂfaithâÂÂ. I can accept that the reason to ferment the oats is to induce yeast production, with the yeast production being the ultimate goal. In that case, then one is not feeding oneâÂÂs worms âÂÂoatsâÂÂ, one is feeding oneâÂÂs worms YEAST, and the source of the yeast is - for all intents and purposes - immaterial.

With respect to the scale of 0.01%, let me offer the following example of one-ten-thousandths of something:
A liter of water (H2O) contains 1000 cubic centimeters (CCs) of H2O. Because of the hydrogen bonding of H2O, each CC contains about 10 âÂÂdropsâ of H2O. Therefore, there are about 10,000 âÂÂdropsâ of H2O in a liter (~1.05 US quarts) of H2O. Therefore, to add 0.01% of liquid to something, one would be adding the equivalent of one drop of water to one liter of water. That just seems a VERY small amount in the context of what we are discussing here. If on the other hand, it was 0.1%, that would be 10 drops, or 1CC. Were it 1%, it would be 10CC or about 2 teaspoons to a liter (15CC to a tablespoon - 3 teaspoons to a tablespoon, therefore 5CC per teaspoon). I think you can see the basis for my query about the 0.01%.

Just guessing, maybe what she meant to write was 1% which is 0.01 times (not 0.0001, which is what 0.01 percent of something is), and she wrote the 0.01 but added the % sign inadvertently. At any rate, 0.01% of something is a VERY small proportion.

Paul

Paul...she really did mean 0.01%. A lot of percentages of microscopic properties are expressed in very small percentages because....the percentages are small.

Another way of knowing she didn't error in the decimal placing: she wrote it as Zero Point Zero One Percent to express the care she took in the placement of it because she knew some would think it too small a percentage.

Chuckiebtoo

""First to Otis:
If the precomposting oatmeal (is it by itself ?) is fermenting, that means it is yeasty. Right ? So I'm looking up yeast and fungi . . . and my question at the moment is: Is there a lid, tight or not, on the plastic ice cream container ?""
bbrr: I wouldn't call it pre-composting, just "aging", pre-rotting. Yes, just by itself and I use the lids to the containers. They are not tight, just nice fitting. Once I added moldy jam to the mix to cook.
Some people add oatmeal or cornmeal RAW.
If I'm not mistaken, I mentioned the oat gruel meal in conjunction with "protein poisoning". Gas building up inside the worms' intestine and cause them to explode. This is the reason for the cooking and aging and let the stuff settle, get rid of all the gases, before fed to the squirm. By that time there should be lots of MO also.
Didn't think about the yeast and alcohol associated as a result of this process, ignorance on my part. But I guess that's what the bubbling is about. Sorry, I didn't sniff at it.

""What about all of the CH2OH (alcohol) that the fermentation produces?""
Well, instead of drunken worms we might have exploding worms, lol.

The bubbling isn't alcohol, it's carbon dioxide (CO2). Copious amounts of CO2 are produced with most fermentation processes, as I'm sure you already know.

I'll take your word for it on the 0.01%, Chuckiebtoo, but the sentence reads "add something like 0.01% pf(sic) the water volume of additional foods" So if the volume of the food expressed as water were a full liter/quart, (seems like a lot to me in the context of what was being discussed), then the amount of "hypha" added would equal one "drop" of water. Certainly, fungal inoculation takes small amounts, but when "logs" are "seeded" with hypha for "home growing" mushrooms, a helluva lot more hypha than one "drop" is used.

And "MO" equals ???

Paul

Site is rejecting this post . . .
Also: has anyone learned what GET is ?

I don't understand most of what Elaine Ingham graciously and generously tells me.
I'm fumbling along. I appreciate the help with understanding volumes. 0.01% is a ten thousandth? Just guessing, but what she seems to be telling me is that the tea needs a starter . . . and that the aerating has a multiplying effect. She says somewhere that adding too much -- of whatever -- uses up too much oxygen.

The best part of all this effort is that it is difficult to do any harm.

Off the thread but not off forum:

I did give a whole 5 gallons of aerated tea (that had had a CUP ! of kelp meal ) to the compacted path in the lawn from the front door to the greenhouse . (I did more than that, but that would be off topic.) The solids are still in a bag with cocoons and biochar. Maybe will go to the outdoor "neglectable?" bin.

This post was edited by barbararose21101 on Wed, Sep 17, 14 at 10:47

Tea leftovers will make your worms VERY happy! It also makes a good top dressing.

I believe MO is micro-organisms.

Last night I was typing a response to your pre-composting thread, when "something" took over my keyboard and this began appearing "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... and so on. I quickly hit preview message and it stopped. I began to edit and removed OOOOOOOOOOO..., but it happened again about a minute later. Again I hit preview message to stop it. When I finished my edit and tried to post the site went down. No post! Anyone have any ideas what that was??

edit: why is this message wide?? On my screen the post continues past the right margin????

This post was edited by mendopete on Wed, Sep 17, 14 at 11:43

Sorry, no idea what's up with your 'puter. Were it mine, I'd be doing serious virus checking, BUT... When I first started using the "" for italics, bold, etc., I hit a wrong key sequence and started typing in Japanese. Took me a while to rectify that error. However, nothing "took over" my keyboard.

Paul

Have you re-booted your system? About 75% of the time weird errors are corrected by a re-boot.

Otherwise, look up Computer Exorcist in the yellow pages. It might be disguised as "Geeks On Site", or "Geek Squad" to appeal to people who saw the movie.

Chuckiebtoo

Moderation, Diversity, Patience, Deliverance

or write the webmaster of this site . . .

couldn't happen to a nicer guy

Re-boot seemed to work and the 'puter demons are gone. Exorcism complete. Thanks! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

;Q Pete

edit: maybe not.... Post left the right margin

This post was edited by mendopete on Sat, Sep 20, 14 at 10:27

@barbarose - I finally got around to reading your link on mycorhizals...thanks. Returning to our previous discussion, this article refers to it being a bad idea to 'wantonly rototill' and disturb hyphae _beneath the soil surface_. Plus, they also need air.

Don't know what your other sources are but basically I think this is a very different context than vermicompost. Personally I'd just concentrate on the vermicompost and the soil conditions in your garden separately ... but of course I don't know the full context of your explorations.

Good luck!

The plastic tote bin got a fairy ring mushroom yesterday.
I "harvested" it (without permission) from a neighbor's yard while walking the dog.

It will be a while before I know what the worms "think" of such food.
And longer before I learn whether I'll get fairy rings where the compost goes.

In checking the Worm Inn to give it some strawberry jam, I found the burlap lining partially digested -- with hatchlings embedded. They stayed in the burlap for lack of escape . Picture in the burlap thread.

This post was edited by barbararose21101 on Wed, Sep 24, 14 at 13:08

interesting mold .

I aerated this decomposing slurry and it sweetened up.