I couldn't resist, went in a poked around before waiting for reply. It's not as condensed as I thought, pretty aereated until the very bottom where I dont like to disturb because I may pinch a couple wormies! Still want any suggestions though on mixing the castings in with the bedding, I heard that castings can be toxic ???

Sorry I can't answer your first question but:

castings can be toxic ???
Found this on a Google search.

Non-Toxic: The skull and cross bones found on agriculture chemicals is absent on worm castings because they are non-toxic. Parents do not need to fear for their children or pets with worm castings.

I would go along with non-toxic because if you put toxic stuff in the bin it would kill the worms.

Vicky

There is some information on the web that says castings are toxic to worms, but Kelly (our resident expert) says they really aren't. I can't remember the exact experiment, but worms survived in 100% castings for quite awhile. I imagine they got hungry for some other food, though :). As I mentioned on your other thread, I would put a handfull of castings in with new bedding when you start a layer. They'll probably have cocoons in them and they've got lots of beneficial microorganisms in them to get the bin started.

Years ago, before much of the documented earthworm research became available to the general public, vermicomposters supposed that it would be unhealthy for an earthworm, as with most animals, to live in their own wastes. As such, it was widely broadcast that earthworm castings in high concentrations were toxic to the worms. Research, however, has shown that statement to be incorrect. In fact, earthworms re-ingest their own casts over and over, even in the presence of a rich food source, and do not decline when high castings concentrations are present in the bin. Systems that rely on the worms to move out of "finished" material and into fresh food sources, in fact, often fail because the worms tend to remain for extended periods in the finished stuff as opposed to moving en masse into the new feedstocks. Don't worry about the castings remaining in your bin.

As to castings density in the bottom of the bin, this is normal. Castings particles are small, and are thus filtered to the bottom of the bin by water and gravity. Casts also hold many times their weight in water, thus, the bottom castings layer is often very muddy and can become a barrier to oxygen. It is for this reason that it is suggested that the bin is regularly harvested, not because the casts are, themselves, toxic to the worms. Moisture management that avoids pouring water into the bin so that it flows to the bottom castings layer will help and mixing wet feedstocks with dry, absorbant materials before adding to the bin can reduce challenges associated with this wet bottom layer.

Kelly S

Hey,

Where ya been - checking out the fat boys?? Or was that Fat Tires??

No - never mind - I don't want you to tell any secrets!!

Anyway - glad your back (for a little while, I hope) we've been winging it alone by the seat of our pants and trying not step in it!!:0)

bruce

All evidence to the contrary, Bruce! I enjoy this forum for its astute participants and the quality of both their answers and the questions routinely posted.

I have been working very hard, trying to finish up several projects and take a sabatical. I just got back from a trip to New Mexico via California, and plan to stay put for a few days. It's going to take me that long to catch up on the posts! You folks have been busy!

Kelly S

Kelly, slow down a little, it will be good for your health.

Like you said in this thread, the worms thrive in their own poop. Every time I separate a bin a little late, but before anaerobic conditions occur, I find the worms "down there" to be the biggest, baddest, healthiest looking of them all. Plus, they twitch and squirm when I try to remove them to a "perfect worm squirm".

Are those particular worms beyond help in a socially compatible sense? Have they become anti-social, or are they just characters? Or do we just have the wrong isms about a worms' characteristics?

Great to hear you're pushing on, Kelly

Chuckiebtoo

Talking about stepping in it, you guys (and gals!). Let me first say, Kelly, I am honored to have you reply! I have been checking out this forum for the last 6 months, and you seem to be the 'end all' when it comes to worming. (sorry, i'm just running with this poop stuff). And chuckiebtoo, you're the reason I kept coming back. Heck, when you can search for worm + alien + beer, and come up with several of your posts, how can you go wrong???

Ok, seriously, I am new at this, and started by buing a 'wriggly ranch' at reduced price by my county (san diego). My daughter loves worms, I love composting, but suck at it because I need immediate results. This was a perfect marriage. It really scares me because I find myself on this forum daily even though I work full time, 3 kids etc.

With this in mind, I wanted to find out more about kelly's opinions on the COW's and similar stacking gizmos like my 'wriggly ranch'. I added a second layer once, and quickly did emergency worm rescue (EWR), harvesting the bottom bin, which looked beautiful, because they just were'nt getting to the 2nd layer, which was beginning to go 'stank', and the collection bin got totally funky. This did not happen until I put the 2nd tier in.
I put the bottommost of the beautiful castings into my potted plants, indoor and out, and the top layer into my 2nd tier, which now is my only one, and basically flushed the stank collection bin into my raised garden beds (again doing much better).

so, although my worms are fine and thriving (I just totally mixed em up since I heard ok in castings), I think we could do better. as I mentioned, I hesitate looking in the collection container, because I may pinch them when I'm putting the bin back on, or because it may be mass suicide. Also, I can't seem to get to the next tier sucessfully. I do however, have a good balance now where I don't have to add any water, and only need to add more 'neighbors' (white pages) when I put too much watermellon on other jucies in.

I have tried to search for kelly's post regarding this setup, but can not find it, would you kindly redirect me, or give me any input you have.
Since then, my ranch is doing well again (except when I got overdosed with mango and it decomposed too quick--I just couldn't bear not feeding it to them, then I realized I pulled out about 2lbs of it uneaten!),

thanks again, this has been an amusing, addictive, and educational site...What would the moody blues say? Can you smoke worms?

Swamp boogie queen

I guess you "could" smoke 'em, but they're much tastier deep fried with a little gravey on the side to dip in!

You might try landscape fabric in the bottom of the first tray - it'll pass water but it is such fine mesh that worms can't go thru - I had 'em drowning in the "basement" too, some time back - the fabric worked for me. It also keeps the castings from filtering thru to the collection tray.

bruce

Don't trust Bruce's culinary advice! He didn't even know what Fat Tire beer was and he thinks he can make recommendations on worms as snacks?!? The hubris!

Worms should be served fresh with a light Chianti...

As to the Can O Worms (COW), I am not a fan and never have been. It is, far and away, the most difficult system to manage, has a steep learning curve, and does not process anything near the volume of food scraps suggested by the manufacturer, nor does it support the suggested worm biomass. To be candid, I don't think the unit is worth the powder to blow it to he11. ::grin::

The problem with the COW begins with the fact that the unit design is based on the idea that the types of worms used in vermicomposting are "surface feeders" that will naturally gravitate upward toward new food sources. While in nature these types of worms are typically found in the top 4 four inches or so of organic matter(OM)-rich topsoil, they are happy in any environment of aerobically decaying OM with sufficient moisure and appropriate temps. Soils tend to stratify, with layers much below 4 inches or so becoming more compacted and containing less OM, thus in nature these worms stay in the topsoil. In bin culture, however, where we manage the system to ensure good air flow and consistent moisture throughout, our worms will be found through nearly all layers of the bin, not just on the surface. This being the case, the concept behind the COW is immediately questionable.

Another falacy on which the COW and other stacking units rely is the idea that worms will quickly gravitate to new food sources. While this is certainly true, few people, including the COW manufacturers, understand that the earthworm idea of food is not OM, but the microorganisms that decay the OM. The microscopic bacteria and fungi that fragment and soften the OM so that the worm can ingest it are selected by the worm gut processes as the source of nutrient. As such, the worm will be more interested in molding, rotted, decomposing materials in the second tray or at the bottom of the top-most tray than they will the fresh stuff recently added to the top of the unit. Further, earthworm castings are several times more biologically active than are the feedstocks from which those casts are generated. As such, the areas of the bin that contain actively decomposing OM mixed with castings will tend to be the areas where worms will mass in greatest concentration. This is not usually the top of the upper-most tray, rather it tends to be the second and/or the bottom-most tray. Worms remaining in the lower trays pretty much negates any value to the stacking tray concept. Were the unit some three times deeper the concept would have a better chance of working, as this would give sufficient system mass to allow the worms to work in the middle while leaving enough space at the top that new feedstocks could be well buried in carbonaceous bedding, but even were this issue addressed, we would still be faced with the challenge associated with cavetation.

What?!? Cavetation, you ask? Yes indeed! As the system processes the OM in each tray the volume of OM is reduced as the molecules are used to grow more microorganisms, more worms, and are off-gassed in system respiration. Volume reduction means that there is an empty cavity between the top of the material in the second tray and the floor of the tray above. The problem; worms have a poor ability to jump! Passing from the lower trays to the upper trays can be a bit of a challenge for them when the material in the lower tray id not in contact with the floor of the upper tray. While some worms will crawl up the sides and across the bottom of the upper tray to find the entrance holes to the tray above, many trials have demonstrated that a significant number of worms will simply refuse to bridge the open cavity, instead simply remaining in the lower trays where there will be sufficient nutrition for them for many, many months. Since the only real benefit to the unit is in its claimed ease of harvesting due to the worms moving upward from the lower trays, cavetation works in opposition to the concept.

Now let's talk about the liquid collection tray. It is a solid base in which the manufacturer placed a spigot through which the leachate could be drained. The presence of the spigot, however, left buyers with the idea that there SHOULD be liquid draining from the unit, thus many people literally pour water through the COW in an effort to produce sufficient leachate that it can be drained off. Further, the feeding rate recommended by the manufacturer well exceeds that actually capacity for a COW, particularly at the outset, and feedstocks tend to be high in moisture. The result more often than not is a saturated system that leaches smelly, anaerobic fluid into the collection tray. As the liquid passes through the upper trays it picks up the fine castings particles and carries them to the collection tray where they then plug the spigot, which, combined with a tray or two of wet bedding and feedstock above, completely blocks air from entering this area. The result is a stinky mess that frequently, if not usually, turns new vermicomposters off to the whole idea after only a couple of weeks.

No, I am not a fan of the COW.

Now, having thoroughly dissed the unit, it is important that you understand that there are many people who use and love the COW. While in my experience far more people fail at management of this unit than succeed, there certainly are success stories, thus, if you want to give the COW a try you might want to talk with those whose opinions of it are more positive than mine. ::grin::

Your enthusiasm for vermicomposting is delightful, -Queen. I feel confidently that you will enjoy it as much as we, but do feel that, as with most things, vermicomposting goes best with either an ice cold Fat Tire, or a steaming cup of freshly ground, French pressed coffee (Starbucks Serena Organic or Mexican Shade Grown Organic, or anything from Camano Island Coffee Roasters)!

Kelly S ::major beverage snob::

I'm using the OSCR Jr, and it's suppose to be a stacking system. Since the bins sit on top of each, no gap should ever form.
To start the second bin on top, would it make sense to pour some of the leachant on the new material to get the biological system going.
Normally I use the pocket method and dig the pocket right to the vermacompost layer.

Good advice all! The few downsides of vermicomposting are consistent with Kelly's opinion of the stacking system (suprised?--no). Many of them wanted to stay below and hang out. Which was ok, but I found my new food in the 2nd tier not to be processed as quickly as I would like. Also, after I added the 2nd layer is when I had my first problem with the collection bin actually collecting stuff, as well as the worms migrating into it, and getting nasty. Then I had to clean it, which means I probably smashed many worms in the process of stacking and unstacking.

So, my opinion at this point is that I would rather spend time handling and sorting worms than I would be to spend time fixing a stank collection unit. So, I'm going to try a second bin. Any suggestions for the 'best' one? I'm obviously not a fan of collection bins.

Ok, so at the risk of having this held against me for the rest of my vermicompositing foruming, what is Fat Tire Beer. Don't know if they have that in San Diego.

I like my worms with Chardonnay on a warm evening. For some reason not so fun with a red wine. Perhaps worms are the OTHER WHITE MEAT.

I'm sure you'll see Fat Tire Beer if you're on the lookout. The bottle has a picture of a bicycle on it.

I believe I've read something about the system you're using and wonder if you might try this. Instead of putting your second tray on top of the first tray, remove the first tray and put the new one where the first was. Then put the old tray on top and leave the lid off. As that material starts to dry out and is exposed to light maybe the worms would head down into the new tray. It works for me when I do something similar. I start a new bin with food and bedding, then put a layer of window screen, then dump on the material that's ready to harvest. By the time it's dry enough for my taste, most of the worms have migrated down through the screen. When I feed that bin I just lift up the screen and put the food underneath.

Good luck with the worms and finding a Fat Tire ;)

Mariann

Newbie, while the OSCR JR (OJ) concept does reduce/eliminate problems with cavetation, we see many of these systems with air flow challenges. While there are many holes drilled into OJ bins, the fact that it is comprised of nesting plastic totes still reduces oxygen penetration to some degree. If the bin contents become overly wet, the associated oxygen displacement coupled with reduced air penetration due to the nesting plastic can lead to anaerobic conditions. You can avoid problems, as you likely know, by keeping a close eye on moisture management, ensuring the system is damp but definitely not wet.

Keep in mind that a plastic bin is relatively efficient at reducing evaporation from the system. If the lid is used, evaporated moisture condences on the inner bin walls and lid and "rains" back into the system, often leading to sysgtem saturation. Many who use plastic bins find it easier to maintain optimal moisture levels by replacing the lid with a piece of landscape shade cloth or burlap sacking, thus enabling gas exchange and evaporation while protecting the unit from light. If you find moisture management becomes an issue you might consider trying this.

As to using leachate to innoculate the upper tier of new material, there is no reason not to try it (provided the material in question actually needs to be moistened), but niether is there scientific data that proves any measurable benefit. From a resource management point of view, it does seem smarter to use liquid for which there is no other use to moisten the system rather than to use drinkable water, and many people do use leachate just as you're suggesting. Have at it!

And -Queen, Fat Tire Amber Ale is my favorite beer (well, er, Ale). Brewed by the New Belgium Brewing Company in Fort Collins CO, not only do they produce some damned fine beers and ales, they do so with an environmental and social conciousness. For card-carrying, bleeding heart, left-wing wack jobs like me that whole fair and sustainable thing is a big deal. ::grin:: You are absolutely allowed to drink the beverage of your own choosing since this is a free country and a public forum, Just be warned that we beverage snobs who have tastes beyond that of mere mortals reserve the right to poke fun should you announce that you have stooped to imbibing something as limp and watered down as Budweisser or Miller (blech!!).

Kelly S

Im using a bin (oscar like, I have a dishpan with holes drilled to stack inside if I ever have the patience to let it get finished!) and it seems to go less well after it gets about 12 inches tall.

I think my system is working OK, worms a plenty, but ill probably harvest/screen by hand every few months, maybe start a second bin...? throw the screened chunks back in...

It does indeed stay a bit moist. Anyone use a cocopeat filled stocking to collect the leachate inside? I saw it on someones website...

Again Kelly, I would have to say SPOT ON, just to sound sophisticated :>. In my own words, Once again, your feedback encompases all of my problems. so, what in your opinion is the 'best bin' for a mild wormrancher of less than 5 lbs, looking to increase worms = eat more = produce more. I don't like the collection bin if I can avoid it, would rather mix up the worms by hand. I am in san diego, inland, so climate is somewhat dry, but doesn't get too cold, sometimes a little to warm though. I think I could manage my moisture by hand without a collection bin. Is this reasonable and safe for the squirm?

So Kelly and all,
When is a good time to harvest. I assume it is dependant on depth of castings.
3" - 6"?

Swampboogiequeen, thanx for the idea of using white pages in my composting! Hadn't occurred to me!

Here is something about worm castings, specially if you are working or plan to work in the third world. Check it out.

Here is a link that might be useful: