Image 2 shows the slightly damp soil just under the top layer.

This post was edited by gynot on Tue, Jun 4, 13 at 20:43

Image 3 shows 4 out of the six tomatoes

This post was edited by gynot on Tue, Jun 4, 13 at 20:45

T...I think you are going to be OK. The yellow leaves (low) seem to be a common thing. You know tomatoes are heavy feeders and drinkers. However, they can have moisture/fungal problems (common). Feed them now. Also, I have good luck with the cheap ($9) moisture meters. The probe goes down 8-10 inches....closer to the roots. The cheap ph testers are not so good....

Thanks fireduck. As far as the nitrogen should I pick up some Fish or blood meal or go twice a week with the Bonnie Plants Herb and Vegetable liquid plant food (8-4-4)?

I was just looking at meters, see the link that follows. Is that appropriate?

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Meter

I would go with the 8-4-4. I am learning it is best to use a "complete" fertilizer like Foliage Pro. Do not buy that double probed 3 in 1 meter. Get something like the one in the lower right for $7.14. They actually work well.

My goodness, is it only me or do those plants look like they need some serious attention? They really look bad. You must have done something right for them to get that big, but something has gone wrong. I don't know what it could be but you mention watering alot, and it looks like they are getting cooked somehow. I also grow in containers, and during the heaving growing phase of the plants I soak the mix every morning, and probably could water twice a day, but don't have the time. The containers look big enough. Does your mix drain well? I would give them plenty of water. Is the wall reflecting heat on them?

Since your soil test indicated that P and K are surplus, then all you have to add is N. You can buy urea , which is NH3. and apply that . I have a bag of it(bought from Lowes). Most often I just use that for leafy veggies that will not flower nor grow fruits. Also, when my plant look pale , I apply some of that.
READ THE INSTRUCTIONS ON THE BAG!.

Other source of nitrogen is GOOD manure(chicken, cow, horse) They also are soil amendments.

Those plants are under stress big time. When the plants are in the growing/fruiting phase their nutrient uptake increases dramatically. As you are growing in containers the nutrients are being depleted not only by the plant but also when you water the plant they are being leached out.

I normally feed my plants every other day and water in the evenings. If high temperatures are being experienced then I will water in the AM as well as the PM.

Go ahead and give your plants the bat guano for a couple feedings the go with your 8-4-4. Then see if you can find a fert with higher K. I recommend BioBizz Biogrow which I have used in my containers for the last 6 years with excellent results. It is molasses based and gives excellent results on tomatoes.

Here is a link that might be useful: BioBizz BioGrow

"go with your 8-4-4. Then see if you can find a fert with higher K"

OP says that his soil test indicated SURPLUS K. why does he need to get something with high K? !!

Hi Gynot,

You keep mentioning soil: "the leaves look wilted even when the soil is dry", "I water only when soil is dry" and "Today I did a soil test." Do you actually have soil (dirt) in your containers? If so that could be the root of a lot of the problems you are seeing.

When planting in a container, it is best to use a soilless growing medium, not dirt from the yard or a bagged "garden soil" because it tends to compact in a pot and then it drains poorly and the tomato's roots will drown or suffocate and the plant will die or struggle and do poorly.

Plants that are grown in any kind of container will need feeding more often than plants that are grown in the ground because each time they are watered, the water run off carries away vital nutrients. Many container growers will use a dilute solution of a liquid fertilizer every week or two depending on the condition of the plant.

Due to the unique conditions of container growing, soil tests are not useful. Because of the lack of a "microherd" many of the nutrients in a container medium are not availble to be utilized by the plant. That is why container plants need to be fed often with a water soluble relatively balanced fertilizer.

Betsy

Here is a link that might be useful: Container Gardening Forum

Thanks all, I'm weighing out the above reply's.

Betsy, this year I went to a large yard that recommended this soil mix for tomatoes. It was not bagged, they sell it by the truck load, but in my case they sold it to me by filling up the black containers. I've been tossing this around for a few days and am now convinced that it's meant for the ground. It's very compact and not at all fluffy. It really needs a soaking to "drain well".

If this is the case, what can I do now for this season without spending a ton of cash replanting and possibly killing these for good?

Thanks

Either way the plants need a good container mix. You could buy some container mix and repot them. I don't see any other options unless you want to start over. Eventually you'll have to get some good mix if you want to use the containers anyway. I'm assuming that you don't have space to plant them in the ground.

I don't know if you'd want to sacrifice your pots to do this, but I salvaged a soil-bound potted tomato plant by cutting the bottom off the pot (with a utility blade) and setting it on a patch of ground.

This converted it into a sort of tiny raised bed, with better water movement and more room for the roots to wander. The plant had been limping along (I noticed brownish roots instead of healthy white ones), but it rebounded well after being "set free." :)

I have even used the bottomless pot (just a tall ring, really) to plant in every year since, so it has come in handy. Then again, yours look like nicer pots than the one I hacked.

This post was edited by jadie88 on Wed, Jun 5, 13 at 13:07

Okay. So I picked up a moisture meter today and it says moist on all my tom's and peppers. The needle is either just in the middle or a mark just above. So I've been watering just right.

At the same time I picked up some MG 12% nitrate blood meal as it made sense to add just N since there is a surplus of P and K. I fluffed up the soil down to about 3", which wasn't as hard as I originally thought, and added two tablespoons each for the 15 gallons, mixed it in really well and watered.

@edweather, I'm not sure if the wall is "reflecting heat". Currently that area gets full sun, but it only hits the side of the wall for a few hours a day then moves more to the top of it, so kind of straight down. As the summer progresses it will hit the side more and more. I'll pay attention to that, thanks. EDIT IN: will I kill the plants if I repot now in the heat we've had? No, no space for planting in ground.

@seysonn, I asked for the NH3/urea at Lowes and they had never heard of it. I also looked and could not find it in the plant food area. Sound nice to have around, I'll keep looking elsewhere. I do have a composted bag of chicken manure that I use it around my plum. Since it doesn't state the NPK levels or any directions except "mix into soil" I didn't want to make matters worse.

@miesenbacher, I'll try the watering in the eve in addition to the AM if needed. When I'm out of my current 8-4-4 I'll consider the BioBizz Biogrow, but it seems low in N (2-0.1-6) where I have a problem or should I keep supplementing with blood meal or other organic? Why do i want to increase the K when I have a surplus?

@Betsy, When I said "yard" I did mean a retailer, Sunshine Growers, btw.

@jadie88, Ya, no chance on cutting these pots. Mainly because I have no room. The only area I have they'd get hit by the sprinklers and get sun only for 1/2 a day. Someday, when the kids are grown and gone, I'll take the swing set down and it'll all be mine, all mine and I'll do what I want. ;)

All, what should I do next? Wait a week and test my soil again now that I've added the nitrate? Feed either way in a few days with my 8-4-4? Other?

Thanks a lot for all the advice so far.

This post was edited by gynot on Wed, Jun 5, 13 at 13:58

Are those black pots sitting on concrete? Black pots are great for generating heat and warming the soil. However, as the plants grow and roots get closer and closer to the sides of the pot, they can get cooked. Shade the sides of the pot from the direct sun. I would recommend, if possible getting them away from that wall.

If they are sitting on concrete, the heat is then just getting magnified.

@seysonn, I asked for the NH3/urea at Lowes and they had never heard of it. I"
-----
haha. They said the same to me. But I looked and found it. Then I showed it to the person who had told me they do not have such a thing.

I am afraid there isn't much you can do for those particular plants at this point. (Unless you think you can repot them without damaging them.) Even though your moisture meter reads fine as far as you can insert it into your growing medium, that is probably not an accurate picture of what the conditions are in the pots. The bottom of the pot will have a layer of very wet soil ("perched" water) and that is where the roots are dieing.

In every growing medium, in the ground, and in potted plantings, there is a level at which the soil's "wicking" ability to suck water upward (think about a paper towel dipped in water) balances the downward gravitational pull. This is called the perched water table. Below the perched water table, the soil is saturated with water, which can suffocate plant roots and encourage root rot. Above this level is usable soil. Using soil in a container will have a higher perched water table because of the lack of porosity in it. The more compact the soil, the more it holds water. Which sounds like a good thing until you realize how much air roots need.

With tomatoes grown in the ground, the perched water table is usually many, many feet below the ground.

You are getting a few tomatoes. So you can look at this as a learning experience. You will know so much more for next year.

BTW, where are you located? You can add your zone and location info to your profile so it shows on your posts. That can be helpful. For instance, in some areas, the season is long enough, that they can get a second crop. If your in one of those, you could apply your new found knowledge to a second crop.

Betsy

Here is a link that might be useful: Article that shows perched water tables

This post was edited by bets on Thu, Jun 6, 13 at 9:23

@bets, I'm a 9b in Southern California. If I popped a hole in the side of a pot and took a reading that way would it be accurate enough, say 2/3 of the way down? Thanks so much for the info.

@seysonn, did you find the NH3 in the garden area?

@mambooman, They're not sitting directly on concrete. There are 2x4's in between, sort of like a bench. I currently have no other place to put these that wouldn't be in the hot direct sun all day. If i wrapped something around the pots would it subdue the additional heat? Brown wrap?

Today I drilled a couple holes in the sides of two pots about 4" up from the bottom then stuck the moisture meter in. It was reading about mid way through the wet zone on the chart. This was 2 lines above reading from the top.

Even though these are possibly in the wrong medium, could I get as much life out of them by reading the moisture that way and water accordingly? I understand the air problem and what's going on with the roots, but will this at-least aid these for the time being? I'll also continue adding blood meal until nitrogen levels are up to par.

Also, the way the sun is currently situated it only hits the top of the pots/plants being next to the wall like they are, thus not baking the soil and over heating the pots themselves. The wall also does not reflect any strong sunlight since it never gets hit with any sun. Of course this will change as the year goes on.

All in all I've summarized that it's not only a nitrogen problem, but also the medium.

Next year is another year. I'll have to build my own containers as store bought that will fit and be large enough, are far too expensive. I'm considering red wood or cedar. Opinions? I'll also make sure the appropriate medium is used and to check the NPK and PH levels sooner. I'd love to use gritty mix, but again, the cost would be astronomical. Although my Kumquat is doing marvelous in the stuff.

Thanks for everyone's help. As far as my Tom's, I'll limp along until next year

Today I did a soil test. PH = 7.2/7.3, N = depleted, P = Surplus and K = Surplus.

I'm really surprised that no one else has mentioned the notoriously inaccurate results one gets from a DIY soil test kit - unless I missed it in all the above. Never make any nutrient decisions based on them as they will always read just about what you got for results. They always give a pH in the 7 range and a low N reading.

Given the appearance of your plants in the pictures and all the subsequent info that has come out in the discussion, lack of N is the very least of your problems. And going over-board with N at this point is only going to create more problems.

could I get as much life out of them by reading the moisture that way and water accordingly?

Unless you invest in $250+ moisture meter they too are well noted for inaccuracy and mis-leading results. You'd do better with your finger or a wood stick stuck deep in the pot.

I don't see any indication of your zone or where you live but if in anything but zone 4 or in zone 8 or higher you likely have plenty of time to start over and do it right rather than wasting more time and effort on those poor plants.

If that won't work root some cuttings off a couple of the plants - lots of posts here on how to do it - if you can find some healthy growth tips. Then pull the old plant, fill the container with some plain old bagged potting mix like Miracle Grow Potting Mix (no soil) or one of the other brands and once the cuttings root (8-10 days) plant them in the pots. It will improve your odds of success ten-fold.

Hope this helps.

Dave

@digdirt

I'll try this and see what takes. Is there a particular thread that you could refer me to? What key words should I search for?

Should I be looking for at-least "Premium" potting mix?

How do I test the soil to get accurate results and know what it needs as far as nutrients?

As I pointed out, in a post above, I'm in a 9b in SoCal. I will add it to my profile... again.

Thanks again.

How do I test the soil to get accurate results and know what it needs as far as nutrients?

You can't. Only professional soil testing labs can do an accurate soil test. One is available from your local county ag extension office if needed. However when growing in containers with proper potting mixes it isn't necessary and very seldom done. Proper soil-less container mixes are already pH balanced prior to bagging/sale. When reusing them the second year many will add a bit of lime to the mix but is properly amended with some fresh mix even doing that likely isn't necessary.

Search terms 'rooting cuttings', 'cuttings', clones', etc.

Should I be looking for at-least "Premium" potting mix?

Depends on what you mean by "premium". AFAIK Miracle Grow Potting Mix is considered a premium mix. So is Sta-Green, Farfad, and hundreds of others. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the mixes recommended on the Container Gardening forum. They are great and used by many, myself included from time to time, and if you are container gardening exclusively then worth the time and effort to use.

But they sure aren't the only options available. Thousands, again myself included, garden in containers with commercial soil-less mixes quite successfully. My personal preference is ProMix BX but it may not be available in your area and the MG mix is available most everywhere.

As for "needs for nutrients" ANY container regardless of the soil-less mix used in it, will require regular supplemental feedings of a balanced N-P-K-micro fertilizer since nutrients leach out every time you water. How often depends on the size of the containers and how often they have to be watered - a weekly diluted to 1/2 strength mix is commonly recommended.

Low-nitrogen works best with tomatoes and 100s of brands are available. Liquids used as a regular part of the watering regimen work best but granular can work too when used properly. Synthetics work better than organics because there is no soil food web, no micro-herd, in soil-less mixes to convert the organics as needed.

The issue is not the brand of mix used but that it be soil-less.

Hope this helps.

Dave

PS: you can read through many discussions here on growing in containers that contain all this info and much more from many experienced posters if you just put 'container' in the forum search bar at the bottom of the page.

Here is a link that might be useful: rooting cuttings discussions

Dave, I'm still reading up on starting my clippings in vermiculite, but I'm considering the 5-1-1 later since I have all the ingredients left from doing my Kumquat in 1-1-1. I do dread the thought of the sifting again, but if I managed half a whiskey barrel... I'm sold on these ingredients and look forward to tomato results. I can also never seem to overwater and that's a miracle for me.

Any quick tips you want to share on doing clippings in the vermiculite? And hell, even what to use as a "clipping"?

Tony

Not sure where you ran into the vermiculite bit but it sure isn't the common practice.

I really don't want to have to type out all the step by step instructions for how to root cuttings yet again. Let me sort through all the posts about it and copy and paste the instructions here for you.

Many people take cuttings or clippings of tomatoes and root them. I think one of the most common methods is to root them in water. Personally I don't like that method very well, though I have used it. One reason I don't care for it is that the roots that are developed in water are different than the ones that plants grow in soil. That means that once you have water roots, you then have to plant the cutting into a soilless growing medium, and it has to go through a process of growing roots that are adapted to its natural environment. Tomatoes donâÂÂt normally grow in water.

So what I do, is take a smallish container, such as a 2x2" or 3x3" pot and fill it with soilless growing medium, poke a hole big enough for the tomato stem and put it in it, then firm the medium around the stem and water very well. (To the point of saturation.) Then I put the tomato in an area with bright but not direct light. For me that is usually under my fluorescents that I use for seed starting. I start with cuttings that have at least 3-5 leaves on them and about 3-4â of stem below the leaves. (I have used smaller than that successfully, but it takes longer to get a good sized plant for transplanting.) Keep the medium pretty wet, I have even had the rooting container sitting in about a quarter to half inch of water and just let it stay in there but donâÂÂt add anymore water. The first day or two the plant will droop a lot and look like it is gonna die, but then it will perk up. When it perks up, that means it has started making roots and you can stop keeping the potting mix so wet and follow a normal watering regimen. Give it a few more days to a week longer and once it is well established, you can harden it off for planting outdoors.

You can use bigger cuttings, but you'd need a bigger pot and they may not recover quite as quickly. People do it all the time when they have a branch break off a plant in the garden and they just shove the broken branch into the soil and as long as it is moist enough and the branch is somewhat shaded, it will usually grow.

Betsy

Here you go from one of the earlier discussions:

Any small container (old cell packs work fine) with drain holes filled with a well moistened sterile potting mix works. A 4-6" growth tip cutting or a "sucker" - no leaf branches or bare stems - stuck deep into the dampened mix and lightly pressed into place and labeled works. Indoor temps are best - less stress and sun isn't needed for the first 3-4 days anyway. The cuttings will droop for 2-3 days, keep the soil lightly moistened until they perk up. Then they can be moved to the shade until ready to transplant.

Takes 8-10 days

Dave

Thanks Dave and Betsy. I picked up a bag of MG potting mix to start these in. Since I have the ingredients for the 5-1-1 (besides lime) is there any reason not to go that route later and just stick with the MG? Surprisingly the bark I have for that mix is still good, in that it's not moldy... yet. I'd like to get rid of it before it does go bad. What's you opinion(s)? Too much experimenting? Will I yield the same results?

Dave,
Although I'll be using the MG mix ... I read of the vermiculite in a few threads here. Here are a couple:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tomato/msg0612374628014.html

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tomato/msg0711243831773.html

Here is a link that might be useful: 5-1-1 Mix

This post was edited by gynot on Fri, Jun 7, 13 at 16:36