GM: These conversations tend to get a little heated with a variety of opinions on both sides. If I were you, I'd just do a search of the threads for threads on cats. You will find several that were on the first page of this forum in the last few months. The main argument on the side of the environment is that cats are not native wildlife and, therfore, should not be allowed to roam loose. A non-native predator can easily throw an ecosystem out of balance.

The only suggestions I have is to talk to your neighbors about keeping the cat inside. A friendly chat is step one and if you are comfortable then go ahead and threaten to call the MSPCA. I find that any animal whose prey drive has been rewarded by a kill will be tough to deter with anything except having them kept inside where they belong.

That's too bad a dog is not an option. I have 4 cats. I keep them inside. When I see a stray cat come in my yard....I let the dogs out. I saw a cat stalking my birds at the stream. It was hiding behind a large hosta. I am an animal lover, but I will NOT tolerate someone's cat coming into my yard to kill the wildlife I try to attract. I would do as Von suggested. Talk to your neighbors about their cats. If they don't respond....I would take matters into my own hands.

Thanks to both of your for your suggestions. I've been having trouble with the search feature lately, but I'll give it another try for old threads. I guess part of the problem is that I'm not really sure who these cats belong to--they just hang around, and they don't belong to anyone on this particular block, so I think they're coming from a few streets away on their daily rambles or something. I'll try to keep an eye on them and see if I can tell what direct they back home.

Even though a dog isn't an option, I do have a question--don't dogs cause the same types of problems with wildlife? I'm asking honestly, not trying to start a dog vs. cat war or anything. I remember my childhood dog was always trying to chase down squirrels and birds, and I have friends who talk about the fresh-kill "gift" their dog left on the front porch. Are cats just more killer-instinct? Or are they just more successful at it because they're faster? I've never had a cat, and it's been years since I had a dog, so I'm just wondering...

And now that I've calmed down over the bunny thing and actually taken the time to look before I post, I see that there's a whole "stray cats and kittens" thread just a few messages down on the page. Duh! Next time I'll take the time to do a good read before I pop off with the posting button! :)

Glassmouse, I actually bang on the door before I let the dogs out. I give the critters time to escape. My dogs have never caught a squirrel or rabbit, but they scare the heck out of them. I have my back yard fenced in, so my dogs never leave the yard and do not roam. I think cats are very skilled hunters as well as stalkers. I have 2 big dogs and the critters are half way out of the yard before the dogs see them. When I saw the cat in the yard, I banged on the door and let the dogs out, the cat was up and over the fence with 2 dogs chasing it. I have not seen the cat since.

Oh, Glassmouse, you are so right. Dogs can be just as much a problem. I think there was a thread on dogs also. My dog would definitely kill anything she could get her mouth on as far as wildlife. You are absolutely right. Neither should be allowed to do it. I just think cats spend time stalking prey, so they do get more. I find my dog just chases things she sees moving. Different dogs have different levels of prey drive which usually equates to work energy. Sheep dogs, hunting dogs, all working dogs have their prey drive honed to a special skill through years of selective breeding. It is still all prey drive. That is why when you see people complaining that their dog chases the mailman or whatever, it is just the dog's way of finding and outlet for his prey drive. Most breeders don't suggest certain breeds as pets because their need to work is so strong. Unfortunately some people get their heart set on a particular breed because they think they are cute and then they find out that the dog is very high maintenance. The ones that come to mind are border collies and Jack Russells. No offense to anyone that owns one. I'm sure their are laid back ones, but it is generally known that those dogs need outlets.

As for the cats, some people trap them and take them to shelters if they can't find the owner.

I live out in the country and I have literally seen people "dump" their unwanted cats. We have a definate cat problem here. Cats are natural born killers. I don't have a problem when animals kill to survive but, I DO have a problem with killing for fun. My neighbor will shoot any cat that enters his property. I have a few bat and bird houses on my property. My husband and I went away for the weekend only to come home to what looked like a battlefeild. Thier was 18 dead bats and the bird houses were totally destroyed leaving 10 adult and all of their babies dead. Not one of them were eaten. Something needs to be done about this. I am not trying to offend the cat lovers but cats are destroying our native wildlife.

Deefar, This is not meant to nit-pick your post, because I agree wholeheartedly with you. Something needs to be done about the problem. People are the problem and that is where the education and solution should lie. You do raise an important point though which I would like to discuss.

First, even if an animal kills out of need, and they aren't natural predators to an ecosystem, they are going to cause an imbalance. I know that as humans, the idea of killing and not eating something somehow seems worse, but in the big scheme of things, it really isn't any different. They are killing prey. Either way it is dead and can't serve out its natural life. The worst of that is that it probably belongs here and serves a natural part of the ecosystem.

Secondly, I think in this culture we tend to think of domestic animals as thinking like us, and they do not. We get into so much trouble with animals when we don't look at things through their eyes. It is important to remember that a cat is a predator. In their native environment, they would serve a real purpose keeping their preys' populations down. So, "killing for fun" is instinct. They act on impulse. I believe that they act first and then think "Hey, I'm not even hungry and I don't even care for bat meat!"

I don't think anyone is saying that the cat ought to know better, but we need to keep in mind that cats aren't people. The idea of killing for "fun" is really not what they are doing. The people that dump and let the cats roam are the problem. They should know better. I just find most people aren't really aware of how much damage they are doing or maybe they just don't care. My hope is that discussions like this will help to get people thinking about the consequences of their actions.

Vonyon-- I totally agree with you about "people" being the problem. If some of these cat owners would be more careful and resposible with their cats and maybe we wouldn't have this problem. To say, it's not the cats fault for what it does best afterall, the cat is doing what nature intended it to do. I feel our goverments should be made more aware of this and start licencing cats. We have to license our dogs, why not cats. Dogs have to be leashed, why not cats.I feel that shooting them on sight is not the answer. Feral cats or any other animal are disease carriers and sending your pitbull out to kill them is wrong. Do you realize how many diseased your dog could be bring back you? I just wish that more people would have their cats and dogs spayed/neutered. That would help in solving the problem. Every pet I have ever had has been spayed or neutered. I don't want to add to the over population of unwated animals.
Deefar

Yeah, I guess I am more upset about the people, really, than I am about their cats. I understand that cats will do what cats will do, and even though I'm not wild about cats, I don't wish them any ill--I just want them to stay out of my yard. I just don't understand why people let their cats roam free--it's not safe for the wildlife, and certainly not safe for the cat. I mean, the cat could easily get run over by a car.

When we first moved here, there was this one fat cat--I think it was spayed/neutered--who would always come over to lay in a patch of shade on our front step. Never bothered anything--I actually watched squirrels come right up to his nose and sit beside him, and rabbits had no problem sitting just a few feet away. I never minded that cat at all, since he never bothered any of the other animals. But I did wonder why on earth his family let him roam the neighborhood. As placid as he was, a dog or an aggressive cat could've made mincemeat out of him.

Glass.. your fat cat sounds like ours - the only thing that interests her are the little moles.....which she chases all over. She also wears a collar with LOTS of bells on it,,so my birds in high feeders are warned when she's out running. I've not seen one feather in the yard,,tk goodness/ and the one time I spotted her crouching and watching the feeder,,she got a dose of the hose she'll never forget..lol.
Try using your hose on your neighbors cats..most of them HATE water. Good luck

Cat Deterrents for your Garden:

Keep in mind that each cat is different (like people), a deterrent that works for one may not necessarily work for another. On the plus side, most cats will keep pesty squirrels, moles and other critters out of your garden. They're great for keeping out moles, rabbits, squirrels, and other critters which can do more damage in your garden than a cat ever will. If the cats have owners, talk to them without being confrontational. The cat owner who allows his cat to damage other peoples' property is as guilty as the cat hater who kills the cat for trespassing. Remember, cats will be cats, and it is unfair of us to blame them for being what they are and how nature intended them to participate in this world. After-all, we praise them when they catch mice or rats or other creatures we deem to be 'pests'.

* amonia soaked (corncobs, etc)
* aluminum foil
* bamboo skewers
* black pepper
* blood meal fertilizer
* bramble cuttings
* Carefresh - "recycled" wood pulp
* catnip - donated into your neighbor's yards (so they'll stay in their own yards)
* cedar compost
* chicken wire (metal or plastic)
* cinnamon
* citrus peels
* citrus spray
* cocoa bean shells
* coffee grounds -fresh & unbrewed, not just a light sprinkling (highly recommended by MANY Gardenwebbers!)
* dogs
* electric fence for animals
* essence of orange. essence of lemon, lime (citrus essential oils)
* fresh manure(ditto)
* garlic cloves
* gumballs from the Sweet Gum Tree
* gutter covers
* hardware cloth
* heavy bark mulch
* holly leaves
* keep the area damp, they like dry soil
* lavender
* liquid manure (good for your garden too)
* motion sensor sprinkler
* pennyroyal
* pinecones
* pipe tobacco
* plastic forks
* predator urine
* red wine vinegar
* river rocks over the exposed soil
* rocks, crushed
* rose bush clippings
* rue, an herb (Ruta graveolens) (highly recommended in plant form only)
* short twigs throughout the planted area about 6" apart
* six-inch bamboo skewers (pointy side up)
* Spray on your leaves (not the cat): fill a spray bottle with 1/2 t chili powder, 1/2 t cayenne pepper, 1 t dish soap and water
* squirt gun with water
* talk to your neighbors
* tansy
* thorny berry, lilac, hawthorn, rose clippings
* toothpicks
* upside down vinyl carpet
* vinegar sprayed on areas where they roam
* water bottle on "stream"

NOT RECOMMENDED:
*** chili powder, red crushed pepper, cayenne pepper (NOT recommended), it gets on the cat's paws then they wash themselves and they get it in their eyes, beware cats have literally scratched their eyes out because of this. Even if it's one cat out of 500 infected in this way, that's one too many for me.
*** Don't ever use mothballs or flakes. Those little toxic waste pellets destroy cats' kidney function, could seriously harm people who handle them, and yes, contaminate your own garden soil. Their packaging even warns against using them this way.

Give them their own areas:

(To keep them out of where you don't want them)
(If you don't mind them protecting your garden from other critters)

+ pick the cat up and bring it to eye level with the plant to see and smell it up close. She noted that once her cat has seen and sniffed at the plant, she usually doesn't bother with it later.

+ give them their own plants - i.e., pots of grass for her to chew on and a place in a large planted container on her balcony with some miscanthus grass in it (the cat likes to curl up in that for some reason)

+ if the cats are strictly indoors and attracted to your houseplants, grow catgrass for them. If someone forced you to remain inside one enclosed structure all your life, you might be attracted to the plants too.

+ Barley Grass
+ Any type of "catgrass" from the pet store
+ Carex elata 'Bolwes Golden' but put it in some shade
+ Catmint Nepeta mussinicultivars (Simply put, Catmints are Catnips without any culinary or feline use. In any case, they are, however, phenomenal, long flowering, hardy perennials that belong in every fairie or flower garden.)
+ Catnip Nepeta cataria (in your own yard) The oils of which also work as a mosquito repellent that works 10 times better than Deet! Catmint is the common name for all varieties of Nepeta. Catnip is the common name for the specific variety of Nepeta called nepeta cataria, which is the variety that cats are most attracted to.
+ Cat Thyme (Teucrium marum)
+ Flax
+ Oat Grass
+ Jacob's Ladder
+ Lemon Grass
+ Loose soil and mulch like small bark mulch
+ Mints
+ Purple Fountain Grass so the cat lays in the long leaves all day. Maybe put something in that the cats really like and - you know cats won't winky were they like to hang out.
+ Sandy area
+ Silver vine (Actinidia polygama)
+ Striped Ribbon Grass (can be invasive)
+ Sweet grass
+ Trificum aestivum (type of cat grass)
+ Various Varieties of Cat Mints (Catnips)
+ Wheat Grass
+ Wheat Berries
+ Valerian

This list compiled by Violet_Z6, email at violetgw@care2.com for comments and suggestions regarding this list.

Hi, I've just read the posting...all of them lol and all is good advice especially those from Violet_Z6...We have two cats.. both are out doors, yes they have been seen stalking innocents...but as soon as we see them we yell their name and it distracts them and gives the wildlife the escape they need. Yes there are times I have seen signs of the kill, but they have always eaten all of it. We have only ever seen the left over feathers..I'm sure you will find fault in this. I live on 5 acrea in an area of 25 - 15 acre properties..in the wild. I have cougar as well as bear in my yard. (not everyday, especially the cougar.) I guess what I'm saying is I have seen my animals lazing around more than I see them attacking the wildlife. If the owners loved their animals gave them attention, they may find them sticking close to home. I guess we are lucky in the fact we have some acreage and a large wildbelt around us, and because of the predator value for the domestic animals they tend to stick closer to home. I wonder if you could solve the problem by planting Catmint on the outside of your property to distract the cats from entering your yard... and it may sound yucky, try putting dog waste in areas you have seen the cats enter. I hope I haven't put anyone off.. born and raised country girl.

http://www.safepetproducts.com/

This site has some products that might be a solution for you. Good luck.

Our beloved cat is rolling over in his grave reading all this. We eventually had to euthanize this 15-yr-old indoor-only lovable guy because his neutered spraying was brought on by neighbors' *Trespassing* domestic pets - in the city and Country - trollin' our property. Roaming cats are a huge problem to overpopulation in shelters AND ecosystem. People just don't get it, or take Responsibility.

My husband and I did our own experiment. For one week (7 days) every night we set up 8 traps. Every morning we went to check on the traps and found them to have a cat in every one of them. Each cat we found in the traps we put a drop of red dye to the inside of their ear flap for id purposes. For that week we had id 52 cats. Do you think we have a cat problem.....YES!!

Deefar

Deefar: That is a great idea.

Vonyon, Thanks, but I wouldn't suggest to anyone doing this. Wild cats are vicious, and I do mean vicious. We had to wear thick leather gloves that went up to our elbows. It took both of us to hold down the cats(a couple more hands would have been helpful)to mark them. It was a nightmare.

Deefar

The ferals or strays that flow into the shelter are feisty -- and i've have heard plenty of firsthand experiences about scratches, bites, and you don't want to get your fingers near the trap enclosure.

The suburbs cropping up in our neck of the county make me sick. What if half those homes adopt a cat, then set it loose outside to trespass, hunt, and kill? Or for owners from the stone age, wander and reproduce?

Outdoor cat problem? Y-E-S.
-------------------
Thanks for keeping yours indoors.

Shelter at least around here don't want the feral cats, they just don't make good pets. If they do take the cats they are usually "put down". These so called "no kill" shelters will take the animals to a shelter that will kill so that they don't have to do the dirty work themselves.

Deefar

52 cats?!?!? Wal-Mart has bbguns

envirocop, There are at least double that around here. Of the 52 cats we caught, 15 of them were sickly. We already have 2 bb-guns, 2 22cals, 3 shotguns and a tommy.

Deefar

Glass....... I have a cat that goes out during the day..with a nice big collar loaded with bells...to warn the birds, etc that she's out. If I see her even begin to stalk..and have done this to a neighbors cat too... I just turn the hose on/ and give some nice big squirts. Now if she sees me go to the hose.. she "books" in the opposite direction! Cats can be fun/ but should definately be in the house after sundown. Here in RI we have coyotes in rural neighborhoods and lost a male cat to one 2 years ago. What you get back in a plastic bag isn't fit for anyone to see...... We also have Fisher cats that prowl also.

New Haven, CT started a pilot program a few years back. They catch the feral cats, spay or neuter them, and then release them. I liked the idea since it has was a long term approach to a problem. I can't find a link related to the program, but I think the population has already died off by 30% or so. It's a win/win. The cats aren't being killed, do wonders for the rodent population in the city, and die off without creating future generations.

I'm surprised to hear that there are so many feral cats in a rural area. I would think that predators would sniff out the free "lunches".

Here's a new reason to keep your cats indoors, (at least in central California)...

I just moved outside of town to a small house in the middle of crops. There is a house a mile and a half down the road that has a bunch of cats hanging around and I've seen some down at my house. So I'm thinking about the trap thing as an initial approach mostly because I think that people who have a bunch of "barn cats" (this places doesn't really have a barn) don't usually neuter and this is a huge thing with me. Any cat I trap will go to the vet to be neutered then released. I am hoping at that point it won't feel like coming back.
My concern with this approach is how to I not trap a skunk?
What do I do if I get a skunk in the trap?
I don't know if this will work - we'll see how it goes.
I love feeding birds and attracting wildlife but also feel bad for indoor cats sometimes. Its a tough thing - but there are so many more people today in general (population explosion) that we just can't live the way we used to - its putting too much stress on the environment and wildlife.
Mary

Don't, for even one moment, fall for the song and dance about cat-lovers being animal-lovers, they are anything but that. They don't give one damn about any other animals nor even other humans. Cat-lovers are just like cats, the only thing they care about are themselves. Nobody else and nothing else matters to them.

Their TNR (trap, neuter, release) programs are a dismal failure too. A smokescreen and time & money waster. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise. Do a search online for the truth about all TNR failures.

Those cats that are released will still be decimating the native food-chain for all wildlife. And if you feed a TNR cat colony they kill even more wildlife. A well-fed cat kills more animals than a starving one. They don't stop killing other animals just because they're no longer hungry. The healthier they are the more they kill. It's what they do, it's what they are. Lousy little killing machines, nothing more.

The problem is just not the loss of bird populations either. Feral cats and neighboring farmers that let theirs roam free have decimated the natural food-chain in my woods. The resident foxes, owls, and other predatory animals no longer had a food source, the feral cats destroyed all the smaller animals that all the larger ones depended on. The native species all starved to death. That's what cats do to ALL native animals.

I found out that where I live it is perfectly legal to defend your own property and animals from destruction by others' animals. I lost count after dispatching the first 20 piece-of-sh!t vermin with a good .22, outfitted with a laser-sight and good zoom rifle-scope. I didn't have to waste even one bullet, making this solution highly economical as well. Just think of how many dollars and hours of your lives that you have spent trapping, transporting, calling, complaining, restoring damaged property, et.al. ... and still all the problems that these useless cat-lovers have caused remains. If your aim is good this is even a far more humane method than what animal-humane societies use. Instead of dying an agonizingly slow death by animal-shelter methods, they don't even know they've been shot. This is why it is the prefered method of disposing of feral cats in many states.

It's time to give cats and cat-lovers the same consideration and respect that they have for all other humans and all other wildlife--that means NONE. Don't bother wasting your time arguing with disrespectful, inconsiderate, and ignorant cat-lovers either, as I stupidly tried to do too many times in the past. Just do what needs to be done and there'll be nothing to argue about.

This year owls and foxes have returned to my woods. Through a large effort of my own, including raising and releasing native mice and voles to help repopulate the species that their piece-of-sh!t cats destroyed. Their lousy cats are finally gone. But I'll shoot again on first-sight the first chance I get (and anyone who tries to stop me from doing what needs to be done). The rewards for ridding one's land of ALL cats and restoring the native wildlife population are far too great.

And if you don't live in an area where a firearm can be discharged legally, then I offer another valuable and humane method to counter the myriad problems that all disrespectful and inconsiderate cat-lovers cause for everyone and all wildlife.

Anytime you see a cat off of an owner's property, use a pot-modded laser on it. Google for: pot mod laser. You get them for about 5$-$10 off of ebay from Hong Kong and China suppliers and easily increase their output to 100mw or more. I find that filing a small hole in the side of the barrel makes it easier to reach the potentiometer than disassembly and risking ruining it.

If you blind a cat in one eye they'll lose their depth perception and won't be able to hunt as effectively. If you blind them in both eyes they'll stay home near their food dish. This is instant and painless. It's even far more humane than declawing. It is also anonymous. In daytime nobody will even know it happened or who did it, for those of you who don't want to deal with or confront the ignorant and inconsiderate cat-lovers. I find that the blue lasers are more powerful and effective than the green ones when pot-modded, lighting a match much more quickly. I keep one of each in my pocket for those cats that are too difficult to shoot cleanly with a .22. I don't like to see any animal suffer. If I can't get a clean shot then they get blinded.

The drastic problems that cat-lovers have created for everyone and all animals now require drastic actions by all who actually care.

I can not respond to all these posts so i will keep it general. I have recently moved. I rented out my home and had 4 cats that stayed. The new owner promiced to take care of them, otherwise I would have placed them in a shelter... how-ever, a heartbreaking thing, one cat went into a neighbors shed, got locked in, and suffered a horrible death. If I were there I would have searched everyday and would have saved her but not everyone cares about your cats they way you do. People dont think, "I'll check to see if an animal is in here before I lock up."

A little insight to help you with your war on cat-lovers and their cats. Maybe if you explain this to them you won't have to use more drastic means.

I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of cat-lovers and cat-owners that let theirs roam free, and those that defend the rights for feral cats to overtake public property and wildlife areas, are only (cowardly) using cats as a proxy for their own territorial behavior. Not unlike inner-city youth that will disrespectfully and inconsiderately use a boom-box to stake-out a territory for themselves with loud music. As long as they can have one of their possessions defecate in another's yard and the yard-owner not have any recourse to do anything about it, the cat-owner owns that territory. It's time to put a stop to them using their "cute kitty" excuse for usurping and stealing others property. If they want territory they can damn well buy it just like anyone else. Instead of using their underhanded, disrespectful, and manipulative means, putting (and sacrificing) live animals in the path of their envy and greed. Again proving why they don't care about cats nor anyone else at all. Cat-lovers only really want your lawn, yard, or forest while making all others suffer for what they can't have nor own. Bottom line--they want to control you and your property. That's all that "cat-lovers" are really after. It's why they don't care at all if their cat nor any other animals get harmed on your property.

After having read this Cats pass disease to wildlife, even in remote areas.

I would like to update my advice I shared. I would at this time no longer use the laser-blinding method. Unless you use that method to make it easier to approach them and then destroy the cat as soon as possible, preferably without touching it.

Having a cat just defecate in your yard or garden can be deadly to your wildlife and even to other humans. Not everyone wears gloves while gardening. Even I used to just brush off a carrot and enjoy it with a little dirt on it.

I would strongly advise using any lethal methods, and then taking care of disposing of the cat in a way that no other wildlife can ever come in contact with it again. Wear gloves while doing so and then dispose of them as well.

Warn your friends.

Another creative and less drastic approach to the problem.

If you own your land (not renting), you have every right to charge anyone for the use of YOUR LAND for any purpose. Notify your cat-owning neighbors that it will now cost them a fee to use your land for their cats. I suggest $10,000 per day, per cat. Once they have been notified of this, then document their cat on your property with any time-stamped video, so you'll have proof when you take them to court for non-payment.

You might be able to recoup some money for all your lost time, damages, and expenses that they have taken from your lives. If the charges are high enough they might even lose their home and have to take their cats with them. Their home now yours, just like they thought your land was theirs all these years.

(Though, now knowing that once you get infected with Toxoplasma gondii parasites and it is with you for life as cysts in your brain (and can kill you at any time during your life if your immune system becomes compromised, or can cause schizophrenia), or after reading how a large area of Miami had to clean up large stretches of beaches from the hookworms that cats spread everywhere, or the report I read about a little girl getting rabies from a stray cat, etc., I'd still use more drastic measures. I only share this alternate idea for those unwilling to do what should really be done.)