Did you include enough of the pulp and juice to get the fermentation going? Air holes? Depending on the size of the jar, 2" of water may be too much. I add a couple of tablespoons full, 4 T max for large amounts of seed.

Dave

My seeds take far longer than 3 days to ferment. I get a good layer of mold on the surface after a week or so, then I peel off the mold and strain and rinse the seeds. They won't turn dark after a week or so of fermenting. I also add a little water to the pulp so they don't dry up.

I actually used plastic cups with paper towel and rubber band on top,and I didnt realize that I needed pulp.there is the pulp layer around each seed but I tried to get mainly seeds to squirt out. I would estimate that I used 5-8 TBS of water to 1 TBS of seed, So maybe too much water? can I pour some out? or do I need to start over?(I have plenty growing)
Kevin

You need pulp and juice for fermentation. Normally you get enough by just cleaning out the seed cavities as the attached pulp comes with them.

Dave

I used fermentation last year. On some samples a bit of mold grew in the jars. The main thing that seemed to effect the germination rate was the length of time left for fermentation. Those left unattended longer than a week generally did not germinate. Those left only a few days performed fine.

I have yet to attempt saving seeds, but saw this website, below. What do you guys think?

There is no one way to ferment seeds.

Check out Victory seeds for the way Mike does it and there's lots of other methods posted at different sites that Google will bring up.

The time it takes to get full fermentation of the seeds varies with the temp as well as the consistency of the fermentation mix. And as Dave said above you DO have to have the pulp as well. Sometimes it even varies due to a specific variety.

So if anyone says ferment for 3 days, ignore it, b'c that may just not work for everyone. And don't cover the fermentation so that the fungi and bacteria in the air can fall in and form the fungal mat.

When I do fermentations I use ALL the interior of the tomato and throw away just the cell wall and skin.

You know the fermentation is working if you look for the bubbles along the side of the fermentation container, which is why it's a good idea to use clear containers. I use one pint clear deli containers that I buy new from local places where they use them. Of course I get stares when I say I'm going to use them to ferment tomatoes for seed, but heck, that lightens up their day as well. LOL And those deli containers are soaked after use, washed and recycled for the next batch to set up the next week or to be used the next year. Label each pint with good tape and use a sharpie to write the variety name so you don't ge mixed up.

And going back a bit, never but never ferment just one fruit of one variety unless that one fruit is from bagged blossoms. Always use several fruits from one plant and better still are several fruits from two or more plants in order to help ensure that any cross pollinated fruits with hybrid seeds get diluted out as well as preserving the biodiversity found within a single variety.

I don't use a sieve, I just manually remove the fungal mat, slowly pour out what liquid I can, most of the seeds having fallen to the bottom but many still sticking to the undersides of the pulp, and then with a pistol grip end on the hose blast it into the container, swirl the contents, pour out the xs liquid and glomps of pulp, and keep doing that until the seeds are at the bottom and the liquid above is clear.

Then slowly, very slowly, pour our that liquid, and then dump out the seeds onto a prelabeled PAPER plate, spread the seeds around with your finger so there are no clumps, keep out of the sun and let dry slowly, then scrape them off and put them into envelopes or whatever.

I use only fruits from later ripening ones b'c insect pollinators are most active in my garden ealy in the season.

When it's in the 80's my fermentations take maybe 4-5 days but as temps cool in the Fall it may take a week or more to get a complete fermentation.

I'm sure someone will come along and suggest using Comet or Oxi-clean or similar to bypass the fermentation way of doing things, but I prefer doing fermentations rather than using something chemical; just my preference.

Doing fermentations I consider to be a rite of initiation into seed saving, LOL, and to date I've done thousands upon thousands of them b'c I'm an old lady who has grown, to date, about 2500 different varieties and each year I would do hundreds of fermentations for seed to list in the SSE Yearbook plus making seed offers online as well as sending seeds to tomato friends.

Now I grow far less and someone helps with seed production for me since I now have to use a walker, but I still do a few fermentaions here at home with some help.

Try it, it will stink, but you'll love it and you aren't a true tomato afficianado until you do. LOL

Carolyn

I have a question regarding seed saving...I sliced up one of my Cherry toms a week or so ago, let it dry out in open air for 3 days or so. Then, I soaked the seeds in water for about 2 days. I then planted them in a pot to see if they'd germinate. They have in fact germinated (2 so far after only 3 days!). My question is this...will this method work for saving seeds for a longer period of time, like if I did the same thing, then instead of putting them in the water, put in a Ziploc bag and stored for a few months?

- Steve

Steve, you didn't even have to dry those slices with seeds, you could have just sowed them with no soaking at all.

Yes, there's a germination inhibitor in the gel capsule around each seed but that's to prevent seeds from germinating when tomatoes fall to the ground in the Fall and then some of them will germinate and appear as volunteer plants in the Spring. it's part of the tomato life cycle, in a larger sense.

But on occasion I've had to sow seeds right out of a fresh fruit and it works just fine.

As to long term storage in a zip-loc bag and you say for a few months, I think it's far better to process the seeds and here's why.

The whole purpose of fermenting is to remove any pathogens such as the fungal foliage pathogens, from the exterior of the seed, and to hopefully kill most viruses that may be on the exterior of the seed ( most viruses and bacterial pathogens are in the endosperm of the seed and aren't touched by fermentation or any other conventional methods, they have to be hot water treated), as well as getting rid of the gel capsule on the seeds.

it's also been said that some of the fungi in the fungal mat will make antibiotics which can kill pathogenic bateria, but as I said above, those are usually in the endosperm of the seeds and I have my doubts about it as it is, doubting retired Microbiologist that I am. LOL

YOu can't go out and wave your hand and direct antibiotic producing fungi to fall into a fermentation container and in addition, I've never seen any data about any of that.

If you store your zip lok bag in the fridge I'd be worried about mold growth and if you store it in the freezer you'll kill the seeds b'c the moisture around the seed will lead to ice Xstal formation which does that.

Seeds have to be at a moisture level of from 6-7% for storage in a freezer and that can be done with silica gel, but that would be for very longterm storage as in many years.

And I'm just crious, but why would you want to keep those dried slices for just a few months. I see you're in a zone 6 so probably wouldn't be doing a Fall crop and taking sucker cuttings would be far easier, so as I see it you wouldn't need the seeds until the next season.

What am I missing? ( smile)

Carolyn

Wayright,

I think you used too much water. If your water is chlorinated, that will inhibit the ferment until the chlorine dissipates.

As DigDirt has said, extract the seeds and squeeze out sufficient juice with the pulp to keep the seeds in a wet mash for several days without evaporation depleting the moisture. It's got to bubble up and separate so there's a bottom layer of juice and separated seeds.

The problem that can occur when fermenting longer than 3 or 4 days is the seeds may germinate in the mash especially if the temperature where you're holding them exceeds 80*F or so. This happens to me frequently especially when the seeds are harvested from fruit that ripened in the heat of summer and the fruit, mash, shed, garage, whatever, all are warm to begin with and continue to be warm enough to kick start germination.

That's why in a summer seed saving routine, I usually hold the mash only until the seeds sufficiently separate from the pulp to get a clean wash (regardless of the degree of mold development). Then I subject them to a mild bleach bath (one part Clorox to 4 parts cool water) for one minute or two, stirring, followed by a cool water rinse to clear off the bleach. That kills the pathogens on the surface of the seeds as well as a thorough ferment would.

Of course you can conduct your ferment inside the air conditioned home so everyone, including the fruit flies, can enjoy the aroma!

Not about to tell anyone else what they should or not do but I've saved many, many seeds for many, yrs and learned how from people that scratched dirt to stay alive.

All we do is select more or less, healthy looking, fully ripe fruits, from healthy plants. Squeeze the seeds into a sieve, rinse thoroughly with a little gentle scrubbing against the sieve, shake out as much water as possible, evenly spread on a labeled paper plate and allow to fully dry. Scrape em into a labeled and dated envelope and store in an air tight container in a cool, dry, dark place.

I'm sure there is some ignorance there but it works fine with no known problems on many garden vegetables.

This yr. I'm growing some plants from seeds saved in exactly this manner that were 6 yrs. old and some that weren't even rinsed, folded in a paper towel that I have no clue how old. Both came from cleaning out my parents home after their passing.

Gerimnation on these, could have been better but it wasn't horrible and I've no doubt that should I need them to, the same seeds would germinate next yr. I think I know what they are and if I'm right, am very glad to have that variety back since it is from my boyhood. No idea what its official name is be but we will be calling it Mom's Front Porch Cherry :-)

What an informative thread!

Thank you all for your advice,I did pour out a little of the water. but I did notice exactly what carolyn said about the diff varieties , the sungolds were the first to start molding and another batch of sungold started after only 2 days,where as the preacher tomatoes haven't started separating and its been about 5 days,I am a huge chilihead and usually hang out in the hot pepper forum,(pepper seed is way easier to save!) :) but I occasionally come here to check out your great advice!!
I always love hearing Carolyn's input,and if not for Trudi I would still be growing peppers only!!
Kevin

Thank you Star-Stuff for referencing my document on Tania's database. I would also like to reference Trudi's method on Wintersown.org. I am using both this year - My procedure for larger batches and Trudi's for smaller batches.

If you want to save seeds, look at both of these procedures and maybe give them a try. Then when your confidence is up, make any modifications to the procedures that add to your comfort. Do a seed germination test on your saved seeds. This will give you confidence that you're doing things right.

As usual, Carolyn is right on. Each of us has a slightly different way of doing this. I make 3/4 inch slices out of a tomato, remove the seeds, gel. and some of the pulp, and then save the remaining "wagon wheels" for canning. There's a guy up in Pennsylvania that will take two toothpicks and use them to remove the gel - one seed at a time. Many folks spread the seeds and gel out on a paper towel or napkin or coffee filter and let them dry for planting next year.

I strongly recommend each of you who are just beginning to at least look at the two referenced procedures. There's a lot of information in them that will help with some of your questions. The commonality between them is that they both remove the gel from around the seeds.

Ted

Trudi has another and more speedy method of cleaning tomato seeds using Comet kitchen cleanser. Visit her Wintersown site to get the details. I've done it and it works just fine.

There's also a method using Oxyclean that's similar to Trudi's Comet method. Nearly instant and clean. No stank involved.

I recall a post made 3-4 years ago by a woman who said she dried and saved her seeds gel clumps and all. When it was time to plant, she said she separated what she could and if she couldn't get them apart, she just planted the clump and separated them after they germinated!!!!!

Lotsa ways to skin a cat, I guess!

I just removed a bunch of NAR tomato seeds from their bath and they're on a plate drying now. It's the second batch of them I've saved, and both were more sticky than any other seeds I've saved, as though they had invisible gel still clinging to the seeds after many rubs and rinses. The first batch was very difficult to loosen from the plate when allowed to completely dry, so I'm periodically shifting these seeds around on the plate as they dry.

Maybe I didn't let them sit long enough but they had a healthy mat on top, so I figure they'll be okay in the end.

carolyn: Thanks for the info. =) I probably should have been more specific as to what time I would want to save the seeds for. Basically, I buy almost all my seeds every year. This year I want to start saving them. I'd do it with the last of the fruits in late Summer/Early Fall here in TN (Septemberish). I would want to be able to use the seeds for the coming year (will prob start indoors in mid-Januaryish) and also, if possible be able to use them for a few years more. That's what I mean, pretty much. Any of the methods described here good for that?

Peace - Steve

I'm with the few posters that don't ferment. I just rinsed the seeds, dried and put them away. They all germinated. :)

As long as any folks you trade with know they haven't been fermented, fine. But germintation rates is only one consideration. Fermentation serves multiple purposes and disinfection is one of them.

I prefer to both ferment and disinfect seeds just to avoid spreading seed born diseases.

Dave

~~~ As long as any folks you trade with know they haven't been fermented, ~~~

Perfectly reasonable.

Not trying to pick a fight but is there documentation available showing benefit?

I know its widely done but I'm curious about the stats.

If they are compelling enough, I may decide that I do have the time and space :-)

Honestly, especially if used within a few yrs, I've noticed no problems with germination and do not recall ever having any kind of wide spread seedling health issues.

I'm not looking to pick a fight either.

I did not ferment last year because it was my first year of saving seeds and didn't know about fermintation.

Six of my (eight)heirlooms were from my seeds from last year and they are georgeous! We're finally having some nice hot weather and they are just starting to blush.

This is a very informative site and I enjoy reading the posts.

Not trying to pick a fight but is there documentation available showing benefit?

*****

Yes, there is but I don't where the original scientific papers might be found so I'll just pass along to you the conversations I had with Helene _______?, can't remember her alst nameright now but it will come to me, who worked at the tomato USDA station in Geneva, NY who did the most extensive testing of fermentation.

I'm pretty sure she's moved from there to a faculty position at Cornell.

She had several grants from either Campbell's or Heinz, to test how well fermentation removed pathogens from the seed coat and of course those companies had a direct interest in that.

Basically she told me that most but not ALL of the fungal foliage pathogens were removed. But since infection is quantitative that's a huge help. I think she also tested for Fusarium and Verticillium b'c both of those can also be seedborne.

Almost all companies that process tomato seed use fermentation and some follow that up with a TSP ( trisodium phosphate) treatment and/ or an acid treatment.

As I said above the bacterial pathogens and viruses are mainly in the endosperm of the seed and a hot water treatment is needed to inactivate the bacterial ones but there's loss of viability of seed in even doing that.

As I also said above I've not seen any data about antibiotics and killing of bacteria.

But anyone who ferments seeds knows that it's excellent at removing the gel capsules leaving nice fluffy beige seeds when the seeds are dried before storage.

Carolyn, who when she first joined SSE back in about 1989 used to get seed sent to her plastered on paper towels, TP, newspaper and the like but it didn't take long before folks started doing fermentations, not just for themselves, but courtesy to others if they listed seeds in the SSE Yearbook or traded them or gave them to friends. And just this past Spring she received a paper plate with dried seeds on it but that was a special situation of a new family heirloom sent to her and the person sending the seeds couldn't get them to germinate.

Carolyn:
To clarify,..... was it the TSP, or the hot bath that produces the fluffy beige seeds. I looked at the seeds from you a year or so back and have been trying to duplicate the fresh bright fluffy appearance. I only achieved that from timeing as to when I thought they had fermented enough.

Tom

Carolyn:
To clarify,..... was it the TSP, or the hot bath that produces the fluffy beige seeds. I looked at the seeds from you a year or so back and have been trying to duplicate the fresh bright fluffy appearance. I only achieved that from timeing as to when I thought they had fermented enough.
Tom

******

Tom, neither TSP or a hot bath.

I just use conventional fermentation. TSP is used mostly by commercial seed producer folks for TMV, which is no longer a major problem with home growers and it makes the seeds smaller and darker and totally non-fuzzy, and the hot water treatment is also used almost exclusively for commercial farmers who want it done to help eliminate bacterial pathogens in the endosperm of the seed.

That is, if you look in some of the seed catalogs you'll see an announcement that hot water treated seeds are available, but you have to request them for a higher price, and that's aimed at the commercial folks, not the home growers.

OK, a bit of a lag time but in reference to the woman who did the studies I mentioned above I remembered her last name, so her full name is Dr. Helene Dillard.

Carolyn

I find it hard to believe that too much chorinated water makes a difference at the amounts we are talking about. I pretty much do what the web link above shows. Squish out the seed into a wire strainer, press the juice and goo through the strainer into the fementation container (16 oz deli container), which scrubs the seeds a bit and really speeds things up, add seeds, and then fill the container HALF WAY or MORE full of warm chorinated tap water (for seeds of an average large tomato). Once a day I will roughly shake the lidded container to aid mechanical breakup of the gell and add oxygen to help the microbes. Three days is a minimum for clean seed with this seive scrubbing, It takes much longer with unscrubbed seeds unless the temps are very high. There is no floating mold, just smelly broth at the end, which all gets poured into the strainer and hit with the sink sprayer to clean the seeds. The seeds are ready when they clump together at the bottom after they have been swirled,... before that the gel keep individual seeds from touching each other. This takes 3-5 days at room temp.
It helps if your container is still dirty from previous fermentation as it inoculates the batch.

I've done the basic "sqeeze out the tomato, add a little water and let sit" routine, but it just takes so much time dealing with disgusting floating stuff, and multiple rinses at the end its not worth it time wise. In addition, because of all the solids, you cannot always see the seeds well enough to tell when the gel has broken down.

I always get fluffy tan seeds at the end, although a bleach rinse would not be a bad idea, I don't do that.

Spiced Ham, you say, "I find it hard to believe that too much chorinated water makes a difference at the amounts we are talking about."

The original poster who complained of delayed fermentation said, "maybe I put in too much water? about 2 inches in a small jar." And then in his second message he said, "I would estimate that I used 5-8 TBS of water to 1 TBS of seed ..."

So, I said using that much chlorinated water might delay fermentation long enough that the seeds may sprout before fermenting sufficiently.

But rather than argue the point, I'll just say that when I have added tap water at even lesser ratios than described by the original poster, it seems to have delayed the ferment significantly. Apparently your results differ from mine. Cool.

Most of us have a watering can around the house. When I know that I'm going to process some seeds by fermentation tomorrow (or just soon), I make sure it is filled up and allowed to outgas the chlorine over night. The chlorine, even in small amounts kills a lot of the things in the fermentation jar that we would really like to keep around.

Even though I feel the chlorine is gone, I still limit the water to a very small amount - usually only a single tablespoon full in a half-pint jar that is 1/3 full of juice and seeds. These jars are set out onto the screened in porch and are not covered with anything. I get the occasional critter (bug), but they probably only add to the gel-eating mixture.

Seems like some folks here are making this a lot harder than it actually is. If you do the pre-fermentation scrub of the gel and seeds (WITHOUT ANY RINSE), then like has been stated, the process takes less time for a given temperature range.

But here's the thing that most are not realizing. If you get the seeds out of the fermentation and are rinsing and find out that they should have gone a little bit longer, NO PROBLEM. Just put them into the strainer and add a tiny bit of Comet or other scrubbing cleanser with bleach and give them a little scrub. Then rinse and dry. If you normally do a bleach soak, do it before the last rinse and dry or, alternatively, you can consider the Comet with bleach as completing that step. If you bleach, do enough final rinsing that will eliminate the aroma of the bleach from the seeds.

Relax. Do that germination test and let it tell you how well you're doing.

Ted

I will probably look into the fermentation & disinfecting thing as long as it's nicely documented, easy to do & doesn't take much time. BTW, 100% (yes, 100%) of the seeds I did not ferment or disinfect have germinted. =)

Whew, I'm glad to learn that fermentation is not required. I was dreading it. If I trade non-fermented seed I will definitely make a note though. This is all wonderful information! :-)

I will probably look into the fermentation & disinfecting thing as long as it's nicely documented, easy to do & doesn't take much time. BTW, 100% (yes, 100%) of the seeds I did not ferment or disinfect have germinted. =)

Tn Veggie,

I've documented the sani-scrub, it takes thirty five minutes from start to finish, and you get a half-hour break in there too while the seeds sit and soak.

T

Given all the problems with the late blight plague this year in the NE I'd think fermentation would be even more important than ever.

I guess, given that problem and the lack of willingness to ferment reflected in this thread, I'll have to be much more careful with my seed trades this year or avoid trades at all. Germination rates are the least of my concerns. Avoiding contaminated seed is much more important.

My seed trades are all fermented AND disinfected both.

Dave

Trudi, I particularly like the part where you get to rest 30 minutes out of the 35 minute process. Six at rest to 1 at work ratio ... GOOD STUFF!

All work and no play makes Trudi a dull girl ;-)

Trudi: Thanks for the information. I will deffinitely ferment & disinfect from now on. I sure don't want plant issues due to bad seed from not doing it.

Hi Dave,

I'm not a 'big' producer - just nine toms, six that came from my own seeds, one from an exchange, one from my mother and one hybrid.

Although I love, love, love starting my own toms from seed, and the first time this year from my own seeds, I don't know that I am as much of a purist as some posters here to ferment.

If I do offer any seeds, I will certainly let it be known that they were not fermented or sterilized.

I do enjoy your posts. :)

Nosed around a bit and while I haven't found the test stats I wanted, thanks to Carolyn's memory clueing me in to look at Cornell, I did find several papers mentioning the subject of seedborne diseases and the cleaning process.

I'll note that fermentation is prominantly mentioned though again as Carolyn mentions, not the only method and the deeper you read, you'll find there is no silver bullet for all.

I'll also note that another technique prominantly mentioned (and frequently discarded on this bd.) as a preventative of many garden problems, is crop rotation.

http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/factsheets/Tomato_Bacterial.htm

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/fqpa/crop-profiles/tomato.html

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/resourceguide/cmp/solanaceous.php

I need to read further but I probably will be doing more in the future than just rinse n dry.