Since I first logged on to Gardenweb many months ago I have stayed far away from this forum after suffering sniper fire on my first naive attempt to 'communicate.' (For anyone venturing into Garden Writers for the first time, see the thread "Groups and Garden Writers," and witness how acj is hit with an insult from left field for no apparent reason.)

I don't know why I logged on tonight. But when I read your post, ac, I realized that it deserved an answer in good faith. Can writers support one another here? I say No. I think this forum is doomed. For one thing, we have no way of knowing if we're talking to another garden writer, a garden writer wannabe, or someone who hates garden writers and lives to see them cut down to size. ( Hard to understand WHY someone would hate a garden writer, but more on that...)

So if you step out into the open with a query -- or, God forbid, a personal experience you're seeking to share with the aim of receiving advice, response or clarification -- you set yourself up as a target for strange people with even stranger agendas. I don't know how it is with artists, but I have been a professional writer for 24 years and one thing I know about (if I know anything) is Writer Envy. People who can't write sometimes harbor strong ill will towards people who can, especially people who can and actually manage to make a little bit of money from it. It's one thing to discuss work with a group of fellow writers face-to-face, but here you don't know who you're talking to or hearing from, so there can be no trust and no truly meaningful dynamic.

You must have a tough skin to keep coming back, and I admire that. But I think its obvious that this forum does not serve Garden Writers well.

>> But I think its obvious that this forum does not serve Garden Writers well.

wow...I'm sorry to hear this. I thought this would be a great place to lurk and post given that Gardenweb has such a following and all.

I can understand the fear of being flamed. I've participated on many Boards and when a Board isn't moderated it often becomes a free-for-all and very hard to keep the environment pleasant and 'safe' for new-comers especially. It bothers me that there are folks out there that cop an attitude and ruin the opportunity. I can't quite put myself in their mindset to understand why.

The concept of being able to have one location where writers, folks who put thoughts to paper (or screen as case may be) can gather and chat about their craft, is very appealing to me. Primarily because I enjoy learning what people think and what drives them to write.

The anonyminity factor can be a deterrant. Not being able to see facial expressions or hear the tone of another's voice are downsides to discussions on a Board like this. But personal experience has shown me that it is possible to achieve a meaningful and trust worthy connection with folks in this medium. It's not as easy as a face-to-face conversation but it can be done.

The upside of a Board is the diversity of the people that could participate and with such relative ease. If you've ever put together a salon then you know how hard it can be to get folks together to discuss something on topic. Discussion boards are wide open to people from all over the planet and while the questions and answers may not get an immediate response, when a response comes it could be from someone from another state, let alone another country.

Ultimately, the success of a Board is dependent upon 3 things not necessarily in this order: 1) Clear guidelines from the owner/moderator with unbiased enforcement. 2) Member participation in both posting and policing. 3) A sense of community.

I personally think that a sense of community is the most important objective of a discussion board. It is only when people feel they belong and trust that their opinions won't get trashed that they tend to open up.

I do hope the current forecast for this forum doesn't come true.

Silly yet basic question - How does a forum die? Does Spike decide that no one cares, and then removes it from the lineup? Does it sit idle for weeks or months and eventually gets overwhelmed by the Compost forum?

As long as its here I'll read it and post to it - so as long as I'm alive I guess it will live also.

Maybe Garden Writing is just so narrow and defined. Maybe if it were Gardening for Writers or Writers Who Garden then the topics could be more broad and wide open.

Once upon a time I had a wonderful artist friend. she decided to go to school to be a landscape designer and joined the Arboritum. After a few years she resigned her volunteer job at the Arboritum, moved to three acres in the country and developed a "following". It's a competitive business; gardening advice,design,and writing, some would say cut throat. I can no longer mis pronounce a word or forget a plant name or spelling. Nothing i ever do in my garden is ever complimented. She writes, but now wants to get paid big bucks or be included in a book to be published. I have to say this not only happened to me but to her other friends also. Just my opinion.

True. Writing is lonely. And the idea of having a forum or critique group online (or not) is to get some constructive criticism. It does not mean that people who are making a living writing either should pussyfoot when responding, or want others to pussyfoot when they ask a question, as it is not constructive.
Some writers or wannabees are very sensitive to criticism, even when it is made in good faith. But to expect something other than the naked truth is to fool oneself, and won't really help with your writing.
Flaming may be different. It goes from a professional critique to a personal attack. Criticizing ones work can be done about the writing, style, content, etc. Criticizing a person is not acceptable.
By the way, in one critique group, they have a rule that you must discuss the strong points of something, before going into the weak ones. This lets the writer know that the person critiquing has heard (read) everything and is considering the whole. In most instances it is not hard to find some good points as well as bad, and telling the good first lets the writer know that (s)he has done some things correctly. It encourages the writer to retain the good (which (s)he might not have recognized without that being verbalized), and work more on the less-than-good parts.
Ann

Ann -- Some thoughtful comments. But one has to make a distinction, I think, between the proper way to critique work, and the proper way to engage in dialogue between people dedicated to a particular set of issues. So far, I haven't noticed anyone posting their work here to be critiqued. Though they may have. (And I'll bet they never made that mistake again!)

I've seen the word 'flaming' used and that's close to what I'm trying to identify -- a mean-spirited post, with the author possibly emboldened more than courtesy or good sense normally allows because of his/her anonymity on these forums -- attempting to be clever at the expense of the poster to whom he/she is responding. The way I see it this is a form of bullying. And I'm embarassed for people who do it, as well as dismayed.

Shenandoah, I did post an article here to be critiqued. Look for "Funny or In Bad Taste?"

Ajc7000, you asked, "Lately it has been suggested that a writer who writes about gardening is different (lower) than other writers, is this true?"
In a lot of cases, I would say that is true. In order to reach a broad audience, a garden writer comes off as a kindergarten teacher. It satisfies the program manager or editor, with his eye on the ratings, but what does it do for the less numerous, serious gardener? Nada. Therein lies the problem. You are either teaching neophytes how to put their hands in the dirt, and get high ratings, or you are way beyond the average gardener and only a few watch, and you get low ratings. It seems you have to be a nut, or a good looking girl, to bridge the gap and get em' all to get a following to be commercially viable. I wish there was a shortcut and knowledge could be passed so that all could benefit no matter what their level of gardening is. I'm tired of somebody teaching me how to plant annuals in a pot.
Phildert Humus & Pete Moss

I guess I'm a nut. Or maybe there is information out there that even the hardcore gardener really needs to know.

Paul

"Writing is a lonely occupation."

Not for me. I've done some of my best writing in pubs and coffee houses. (And, just for the record -- I've worked as a writer, editor, and publisher for about a quarter of a century, but haven't "sold" a story or book in at least twenty years. Somehow the phone always rings when I need work. Must be some sort of magic.)

I agree with BoTann that the kindergarten approach to garden writing may be stopping many serious gardeners from reading garden books. (So does the text book approach. It has been known to put me to sleep, even if I love the topic and recognize that the writer has some excellent insights to share. )

I love TriangleJohn's suggestion that a forum for "Writers Who Garden" would have a lot more to offer than a forum for "Garden Writers."

Where does this idea about readers come from?
We are capable of knowing and then finding what we want to read. If some newspapers and magazines or books do not provide this we will seek it out elsewhere. If readership is down it is because it is of no interest.
Maybe you should start thinking of your audience as readers that garden...
I'll admit it has been difficult to find plentiful reading material about gardening but not impossible. Books or writers are recommended or commented on by others in almost every publication. Bibliographies are immensely helpful. And the internet has been a goldmine. Our local library system with 77 members has it's catalog on line and we can order a book that will be delivered to the library of choice. If not available it can be ordered for a small fee and delivered from any Library anywhere. I have thirteen garden books on list currently and am in possession of three. None have pictures.
How much or little we know of gardening has little to do with it. While I am not on a par with many writer's work I am perfectly able to understand and appreciate their content. European writer are so popular because they seem to have more respect for the ability of anyone searching out what they offer...Why don't you try writing to your abilities and see what happens

"Why don't you try writing to your abilities and see what happens"

-- but that would take the fun out of writing and make it work.

John D, my statement was unfair. I read a piece by Lee Reich in a garden section this past Sunday. It said associated press below his name. I'm assuming it was to fit the space available. I doubt he had anything to do with the decision on what would be omitted.

I guess I got it wrong too.
In the past I have set myself up in an attempt to stir up...trouble, I guess. I have engaged the enemy of inertia (you show me yours first) and it seems like you win. I will not spare you by being P. C. sorry about that. John fires shots from afar which makes him a sniper in my mind and in my dictionary. Whilst popping shots at others he reveals nothing of himself. Me, on the other hand.
I have set myself up in the hope that others less brave would join me. It didn't happen. John's one liners will pick you all off, me I'm heading for cover.