Sigh. Stupid software ate my post, and I don't remember it all....

I remember a thread, probably a year or two ago, maybe three years ago. Definitely this forum. I think hoosiercherokee and/or mule was involved. At some point (possibly the subject of the post, possibly not), one of them mentioned a grow-out of a cross. Something was said about transitional stages between RL and PL. A number of different leaf forms was cited, but I don't remember what it was (six? nine?).

I remember there were pictures. I'm not sure they were all of different leaf forms -- they may simply have been pictures of different plants in the grow-out. bigdaddyj may have been one of the ones growing out the plants -- maybe asking which plants hoosiercherokee was interested in (which involved the leaf form).

I searched this forum, using "transition" and "transitional," but couldn't find anything. I also searched Google, hoping for cached old posts, but again nothing.

Does this sound familiar? Can you remember anything else that might help in a search?

Amy Goldman has a page of photos of different leaf forms in her book, but they aren't labelled, and you have to guess what she's showing. Not too helpful.

Yes, I think I recall at least part of that discussion and it may have also referenced the plates I'm talking about but its not the particular discussion of interest.

IIRC, Korney showed the plates and was involved in the discussion as well as Hoosiercherokee, Carolyn and I'm sure several others. Perhaps even myself.

Its important to me for lots of reasons. One of which is because I've repeatedly touted how tasty it was and have noticed several growing it this yr. There is I think, enough evidence to believe that there could be a leaf form variation but since all sites list it as PL and Fusion describes his as PL, its also possible that mine came to me miss-labeled and so probably unknowable as to exact variety. OTOH, mine look exactly like those on Paul's site which are not an obvious PL form.

Should this yrs harvest be a repeat performance for that variety, I see it as a permenant "must have" but I'd also like to try the other versions.

I've no experience with the several varieties that have expressions in both leaf forms. Is there a difference in taste?

Okay. I had some problems with Google, but I've found the thread I was thinking of (link below). I don't know if this is the one you were thinking of. It's late and this night person is going to go sleep.

Here's the Google issue: Every search I ran, I'd only get one page of matches. It turns out that it's necessary to select "repeat the search with the omitted results included." I've never seen anything like this: where Google assumes that discrete threads are identical when they're in fact entirely different threads, with completely different thread titles, post dates, etc.! Maybe they've changed their policy, but it sure didn't used to work that way....

Well, anyway. Tomorrow I will probably look a bit further in the matches I got for the last search, unless you tell me that this is the correct thread.

I've no experience with the several varieties that have expressions in both leaf forms

Neither do I. I'm just a retired librarian with a compulsion to find information for people.

Here is a link that might be useful: The thread I was thinking of

Just a quick post here b'c I have a med appt this AM and am running late already.

The variety was first listed in the SSE YEarbook as PL. There are quite a few entries for that listing and while most are PL there are some that are RL.

From listings there's no way to know if the RL and PL forms are identical in all ways other than leaf form.

I did read the link here but that's referring to various intermediate leaf forms that one might see after a cross, and not what might happen when there's a mutation in an individual seed that changes leaf form.

I used to think it was a spontaeous mutation that allowed the change from a variety heterozygous for leaf form to the homozygous recessive PL form, but in one thread Keith ( Mule) and I got into quite a discussion about the molecular events that can lead to a mutational change and I agree it need not be a single spontaneous mutation at a single site.

There's looping out, inversions, repeats in the DNA, etc., that can accomplish the same thing but then there's the opportunity for other gene changes that can alter other traits in the plant that goes, for instance, from RL to PL, and I would assume the reverse, from PL to RL.

Are PL and RL versions of the same variety identical? Not necessarily.

KB and KBX seem to be by all accounts. And there are two PL versions of CP, Spudakee and Jere Gettles PL one and there's no agreement at all on whether those two PL versions taste the same, etc., as the normal RL form.

I have to get ready now for that CT scan but will be back later to see if you have any questions.

Carolyn

Thank you both.

Missingtheobvious, nope, thats not the one I had in mind but does show the possibility of intermediate leaf forms.

Carolyn, In an effort to avoid confusion since I see several growing it this yr. and to provide some reasonable expectation of trueness, what is your suggestion?

I mean, we are already discussing a variety with a rather long name, now to add intermediate PL, seems a bit much :-)

I think next yr. I'll order more seeds from TF to compare with mine which may solve one mystery only to open another and order a couple from Fusion too.

Hey! Other MPLA growers. What leaf form do your plants exhibit, where did you get the seeds, have you grown it before and how do you like them so far?

Thanks.

Okay, try this one:

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread with hoosiercherokee's pics

My MPLA are all PL. I germinated 6 seeds but only put two plants in the ground. All of the plants were PL.

Seeds are from Baker Creek and I love this variety, too!

Cindy

I posted this pic in the past, there are some varieties listed as PL that when grown don't quite resemble the PL that most of us are familiar with. For example, see the leaf at about 9 o'clock, it is serrated AND potato leaf. We have grown accustomed to rule leaves RL if there are any serrations, but there are MANY types of potato leaf foliage, I think somewheres between 5 & 8 types perhaps, maybe Carolyn or Mule can shed light (and Ami by translating) on a German paper on PLs. Sorry, I don't have the link to it, but I'm sure they know which one I'm talking about.

{{gwi:1305458}}

P.S. Pic below was of Giant Italian Potato Leaf, a variety I got from Craig, (USDA), that had about 5 different PL leaf shapes (shapes, not PL types.

{{gwi:1349387}}

Thanks Korney, those are the photos I was looking for.

Even so, they are still more PL looking than mine, or as shown at tomatosite.com

I may try to take some pics this weekend and will certainly include some leaf photos when the ripes come.

Were you to describe such a plant as shown in the link at tomatosite, would you describe it as intermediate PL or RL? I'd like to be accurate and since Carolyn notes that some listings in the SSE are RL, perhaps thats what I've got even though the seed supplier of my plants lists it as PL.

Cindy, is it an obvious PL with no serrations? Mine are as described and additionally, a robust but not overly large plant. As noted, with to me and several I've shared them with, outstanding flavor.

Missingtheobvious, Thanks much for your effort.

Dave, there are definitely listings that say RL and it's not all that unusual to have a variety become RL at some point in time, well, I shouldn't say unusual, lets say it sometimes happens.

I once had a link to a German site that showed about 5 different forms of what they called PL, from a botanical classification take, and I think we've all seen the mitten like PL leaves as well.

I confess that I didn't even cut and paste and look at your picture, so I'll do that later.

I went back and looked at the SSE listings and one of the persons who said RL is Bill Minkey, who is a very experienced grower; he forgot to list his seed source. One person who said RL I don't know and his seed source was from Sandhill.

Many didn't even note leaf form but the majority who did said PL, especially those who got seeds in a chain going forward from the person who first listed it back in 1996. Those who got it from Baker Creek said PL and Jere listed it as PL as well.

I have to tell you though, sometimes I have a very very hard time deciding on whether a new variety I'm growing is RL or PL and I've now grown close to 2500 vareities so you'd think by now, well...... Sigh

Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn,

Maybe a sample from Baker Creek next yr. as well.

I can't ordinarily give so much planned space to one variety but I'll make an exception for this one :-)

I run pretty tight and there was a time when my security systems had a problem with tomatosite but that appears to be no longer the case.

P.S. Finally, a few cherries are blushing this a.m. :-)

Dave, I haven't been on Paul's site but went there today to see and it set my Zone Alarm off! (Trojan.JS.Redirector.f)

Carolyn, look at the pic I posted (w/Olena) and at 8-9 o'clock, what would you call that serrated leaf? (directly above Rugose x RL)

I have had a few varieties that are listed as either RL or PL (depending which) and get a leaf that has the same texture as PL but serrated, like 9 o'clock. Some don't look like PL as "newborns", only afterwards when they are a little more mature do you see the PL resemblance.

Therefore, I think many are calling serrated PLs as RLs by mistake, or some descriptions say PL and people get these and assume the seed was wrong or crossed.

One example is Italian Sweet. I believe it was listed as PL but they are serrated with the thick, heavy, PL texture. This may have happened with others too, like Daniels, and a couple of Bill M's varieties. One of his I grew 2 or 3 years straight and kept ditching the starts because they didn't appear PL when young...

Thanks Korney, I'll be checking into that right now!

Such a shame, its a nice site.

If anyone can get ahold of him to advise that the problem is back ...

Carolyn, look at the pic I posted (w/Olena) and at 8-9 o'clock, what would you call that serrated leaf? (directly above Rugose x RL)

****

Mark, the one labelled Olena Ukrainian is perfectly correct for its PL foliage. The one above the Rugose picture is a tough call as far as I'm concerned and I guess I'd have to say that I'd need to see more leaves from that plant at the seedling and mature plant stage to make up my mind.

What variety is that one above the Rugose picture?

Carolyn

Korney,

I've done some digging on Trojan.JS.Redirector.f but not much luck.

It doesn't show on my machine after freshly updated, full system scans, using several different tools.

It isn't listed that way or any of the several permutations I tried, on my sevice's virus encyclopedia but from what I could find on it from a Zone Alarm forum, its over a yr. old. My service is one of the major premium versions with hourly updates so I'm having trouble believing it would have slipped them after this long.

I also use Spybot Search and Destroy and its possible that it is silently blocked before it even gets to my main system.

I have no other info or advice other than the obligatory use of good tools, keeping them up to date and over-ride their recommendations with extreme caution :-)

Very sorry if posting that site brought anyone, any grief.

Carolyn, that leaf is Italian Sweet, from Chuck a while back. I'm growing it this year too.

Italian Sweet- 85 days- Indet- Potato leaf RED from 3 lb seed stock.

{{gwi:1374460}}

That was Chuck's description, and I think RED was capitalized for a reason, maybe because they are supposed to be pink? They were huge reds, yet nice & consistent in size, on a large plant. Leaves were PL texture with serrations.

It looks a lot like a PINK with a similar name, or maybe Italian Heirloom, in the SSE Public catalog if I remember correctly.

I think this year I am growing 3 or 4 varieties that are considered PL by some, RL by others. Italian Sweet, Daniels, SpudaYellow Strawberry (from Bill, an apricot strawberry/heart, PL, from seeds of German Red Strawberry from Neil) and something else... plus just 1 PL sprout of Red Rose (a RL stable Rutgers x Brandywine.)

I looked at Paul's site and the leaves of MO Pink Love Apple look like serrated PLs too.

.................

Dave, I went back there again but couldn't trigger any alert. But in the ZA log it happened at 2009-07-11 07:12:52 -0400. I had 2 other sites open at the time but just ones I visit every day without any AV triggering ever.

Does anybody have the German paper mentioned?