Another variation to the "What is the definition of heirloom." Tom is in the area of Craig LeHollier's classification of heirlooms group named "created heirlooms." In a paraphrase of Carolyn Males explaination in her famous book, an heirloom can be created by crossing heirlooms or an heirloom and a hybrid and then by a time consuming and tedious (my word) process, returning that cross back to an open pollinated state with a tomato giving the traits desired. And to quote Carolyn, " Many maintain that if an heirloom is 'created' by deliberate cross-pollination, it isn't a true heirloom."

Many are now calling lots of varieties once known as "heirlooms" simply open pollinated tomatoes. For me, in my quest to introduce my friends and neighbors to my non-hybrid, non-storebought tomatoes with the strange names, shapes colors and great flavors, I have been calling everything "heirloom."

Whatever you want to call the tomatoes, people like Tom Wagner keep things interesting and fun. I have not yet grown any of the many creations Tom has given us, but I am sure I will if I can get around to it.

I hope this explaination is not too boring, but that is how I view an answer to your question.

I am puzzeled by reading in the SSE of Mr. Wagner, during the recent annual convention, giving talk on how he takes old hierlooms to breed for the future hierloom.
Would that not be an oxymoron?
I would like to learn this because my perception has been that a true hierloom has never been crossed.
Is there a different type of breeding that I am not familiar with.

*****

I've known Tom Wagner since 1990 and have met him in person and talked with him about many things.

As you know from a recent thread here there are many different interpretations and definitions of what the word heirloom means with respect to tomatoes.

Tom's position is that anything that's treasured is an heirloom, so for him what he uses in breeding new varieties, regardless of the age of the varieties and accessions he uses for his breeding purposes, if a variety is treasured by those who grow his varieties or I suppose any variety although this is my conjecture, for him it's an heirloom.

*****
I would like to learn this because my perception has been that a true hierloom has never been crossed.

*****

Actually most of our heirlooms, as judged by some definitions, have all been crossed in that they start out as natural cross pollinations and then some astute farmer or gardener has to genetically dehybridize that hybrid to the OP state.

I once read where someone suggested that about 95% of all OP heirloom varieties arose by NCP ( natural cross pollination) and that about 5% arose by mutation from a pre-existing variety/

And I'm sure if TOm is reading here he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but it is something we've discussed in the past and his viewpoint is somethng he also has posted online.

Carolyn, who also notes per your subject title that no tomato breeding is done at SSE and this thread relates to the recent annual SSE Campout event where Tom and Rosalind Creasey were the featured speakers.

To me a heirloom is an OP for at least 100 years. The longer the better. It should be genetics that have been kept growing by one farmer family on hopefully the same land for 100 years.

Obviously people are stealing the term for their own financial gain. We need to put a stop to such practices.

This is a topic that can certainly get people very animated and at times all riled up.

I am betting that if you asked anyone to define an 'heirloom vegetable' they would say an 'old-timey' vegetable variety. Age would be an important part of the def.

Why is it that the defintion of a tomato heirloom is so all-encompassing that it includes modern crosses?

I am in the camp that feels an heirloom must be of a certain age and passed down in a family or an old commercial variety. However, there is no concensus as to what date to use to define an heirloom. I guess I am partial to pre-1950's.

I can understand the terms 'created, 'mystery', or 'treasured' heirloom but I wish people would tack on these adjectives when describing the varieties instead of just saying everything is an heirloom (with the exception of hybrids). The term heirloom has really lost all meaning and means nothing more than an open-pollinated variety that can be either old or new.

I was happy to hear that some people thought everything should be called either open pollinated or hybrid and nothing else. That way those on the 'it's got to have some history' side could then use the term heirloom without all the confusion.

http://www.seedsavers.org/savingheirlooms.asp

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC1255.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: Heirloom Tomatoes -very good

I see that Tomato Growers Supply Company is calling Earl's Faux an heirloom.

It is a WONDERFUL tomato but an heirloom??? Earl's only started distributing it fairly recently.

Not sure if it would fit Carolyn's definition of a 'mystery' heirloom or
Tom's 'treasured' definition but that means you can stretch everything under the big umbrella known as an heirloom if you use these broad guidelines.

Good point, Farkee, regarding "not sure if (Earl's Faux) would fit (the published) definition of a 'mystery' heirloom" :::smile::: Maybe someone should concoct a new definition, "found heirloom," to add to the four current "industry standard" definitions of "heirloom tomato."

Found heirloom: A tomato variety, not necessarily proven unique or distinct from other varieties, recently discovered as a stray seed or supposed mutation originating from a commercial seed pack or private seed swap wherein the resulting variant tomato plant captures the fancy of the intial grower and subsequently creates a fad following.

Just a thought :::super sized LOL:::

Bill

Maybe someone should concoct a new definition, "found heirloom," to add to the four current "industry standard" definitions of "heirloom tomato."

*****

Bill, they aren't "industry standard" definitions at all. ( smile) A "found" definition? Maybe.

Craig had suggested three of them and I added the mystery category.

I thought it might be useful for folks to know which ones might be considered commercial heirlooms, which ones are considered as family heirlooms, which ones were created and which ones were so called mystery ones, usually originating from cross pollination.

Craig suggested those first three categories in an issue of OTV for the same reason, that is, to help folks realize that not all that was labelled heirloom was of the family type.

And the only place some varieties are designated as such is in my book. Just my personal view and how I wished to label those varieties I featured.

As I said, if folks find it useful, so be it.

Like Farkee, I also feel the need to put some approximate age on the family and commercial OP's as well.

But as long as there is no ONE accepted definition of what an heirloom is then folks are going to argue forever about this as well you know. ( smile)

And as I see it, there never will be one accepted definition as it pertains to tomatoes. LOL

Farkee wrote:
Why is it that the defintion of a tomato heirloom is so all-encompassing that it includes modern crosses?

*****

I've used the words created heirloom for that category, and Tom Wagner uses the word treasured. And I used the word created b'c folks were thinking, and they were so IDed as such for varieties such as Isis Candy, Pale Perfect Purple, Snow White, Green Grape, Green Zebra and on and on, all deliberately bred, that they were typical family heirlooms. Not.

((I am in the camp that feels an heirloom must be of a certain age and passed down in a family or an old commercial variety. However, there is no concensus as to what date to use to define an heirloom. I guess I am partial to pre-1950's.))

No, there is no consensus but I still lean towards about 1940, as was suggested not by me, b'c at that time hybrids were being made available to the public.

And as I've also said here, I can see some merit in even using a sliding scale with a time period of maybe 50 years but I really am uneasy about saying variety X is not an heirloom this year but becomes one next year. Just my own bias.

And the cold hard fact is that for most of the family heirlooms there is no good history or data to say exactly how old they are. For the commercial ones there is such data.
Carolyn

The other way I look at it is that today's fairly recently created OPs will be heirlooms in a few generations...if they are good enough to survive by being passed down!

Craig

Well, I thought my attempt at humor was obvious. But if we must get serious ...

Attempt at humor aside, I think there have been definitions conceived and promoted to the extent that they have become industry standards to a degree ... not to mention an empty trendy catch phrase. Whenever the commercial seed vending industry promotes products as "heirloom tomatoes" either by directly refering to definitions concocted by individuals perceived as experts in the field, or by indirectly infering the same, then I think "industry standard" definitions exist by default.

What are those "industry standard" definitions? Well, Carolyn, just above, referred to those standard definitions and gave you a brief explanation of their origin. One seed vendor in particular continues to publish a Web page with those four definitions of "heirloom tomato" that Carolyn Male and Craig LeHoullier originally published in their "Off The Vine" (OTV) newsletter, and as Carolyn Male also published in her book entitled "100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden." The definitions as currently worded at the TomatoFest Web page are as follows:

1. Commercial Heirlooms: Open-pollinated varieties introduced before 1940, or tomato varieties more than 50 years in circulation.

2. Family Heirlooms: Seeds that have been passed down for several generations through a family.

3. Created Heirlooms: Crossing two known parents (either two heirlooms or an heirloom and a hybrid) and dehybridizing the resulting seeds for how ever many years/generations it takes to eliminate the undesirable characteristics and stabilize the desired characteristics, perhaps as many as 8 years or more.

4. Mystery Heirlooms: Varieties that are a product of natural cross-pollination of other heirloom varieties

Source at TomatoFest

Whether the wording at TomatoFest's Web page is identical to the wording in the OTV newsletter or Carolyn Male's book, I don't know without a detailed comparison and I don't have the other publications at hand. But the four categories have been worded pretty much the same as far as I can remember ... although TomatFest does tend to abbreviate and use incorrect grammar freely.

Now, the idea of setting 1940, 1941, whatever, as a deadline for "commercial heirlooms" seems a little arbitrary and conflicting. First of all, there are no F1 hybrids currently available to the public that were concocted before Big Boy (1948 or '49 I think) ... oh maybe that one that was available for a while that was bred by Burpee in 1945 (I forget it's name now) ... so, why 1940 - '41?

Besides ... what has the availability of F1 seeds to home gardeners got anything whatever to do with setting cut-off dates for hand-me-down heirlooms??? As anyone can see, every single "heirloom tomato" (or at least 95% as stated elsewhere by the same experts who set the "heirloom" definitions) under all four categories evolved from hybrid crosses in the first place. Furthermore, most of the popular "created heirlooms" and "mystery heirlooms" are tomatoes resulting from very recent hybrids, whether deliberate or accidental, and have not yet been passed from one generation to the next, while many tomato varieties of commercial origin have passed through three generations since 1941 with extensive professional and amateur selection having occurred.

Furthermore, setting a WWII cut-off date for "commercial heirlooms" sets up other apparent conflicts. Here's just a few examples:

1. Under the "commercial heirloom" definition, Rutgers and Tangerine becomes "commercial heirlooms" while Jubilee (from Rutgers x Tangerine) doesn't seem to qualify as either a "commercial heirloom," or "family heirloom" even though it was created from two known "heirloom" parents and has been passed down for more DOCUMENTED generations than many many "heirlooms" as defined by the three of the other four definitions. Same goes for several other commercial/university source favorites from the 40s and 50s. So ... are Jubilee and Wisconsin 55, just for example, considered "created heirlooms" under the definition given for that category?

2. With regard to "created heirloom" can Green Grape, Green Zebra, et al, be considered within that category if they were concocted and distributed via a commercial venture, as were Jubilee or Wisconsin 55, albiet Tater Mater Seed Company was rather "home grown" by comparison?

3. In other words, does the fact of commercial origin of some varieties currently falling under the umbrella of "created heirlooms" disqualify them as "heirlooms" when placed alternately into the "commercial heirloom" category when they are dated post 1941? Or can Jubilee and Wisconsin 55 enjoy the same status as Green Grape and Green Zebra under the "created heirloom" umbrella?

4. Consider Yellow Brandywine now. No one has confirmed its true origin beyond saying that Charles Knoy of Indiana(now deceased and unable to confirm the origin, whether he indeed received it as a hand-me-down, or whether he even passed it along to following generations) gave seeds to Barbara Lund of Ohio, who then passed seed along to Craig LeHoullier. All this happened apparently in the mid to late 1990s with hardly enough time to qualify as a hand-me-down "heirloom." So, how does Yellow Brandywine qualify under the "family heirloom" category? Okay ... "commercial heirloom?" Surely not "created heirloom." "Mystery heirloom" maybe? Nope ... how about "hear say heirloom?"

5. Oh, and now there's a "strain" of Yellow Brandywine called Platfoot apparently extracted by a brief few years of selection in the late 90s. Yet as pointed out above, selections of Jubilee over decades may not qualify as "heirloom tomatoes."

6. Now we come to "mystery heirlooms" like Brandywine OTV, a very nice open pollinated tomato selected out of a cross reportedly between Yellow Brandywine (a "? heirloom") and an "unknown tomato" in Craig LeHoullier's garden and "dehybridized" by Carolyn Male before distribution first through free seed shares and now through commercial sales. BTW, the "OTV" stands for Off The Vine, the original newsletter published by Male and LeHoullier that promoted the idea of a "mystery heirloom" definition. Anyone should be able to see the conflicts set up by this particular quandry.

So, all humor aside ... yes, the formulation of "heirloom tomato" definitions beyond the traditional definition of heirlooms as family hand-me-downs has provided a marketing gimmick and a trendy catch phrase. But then, what's new in American culture.

Going by the definititions above, Estler's Mortgage Lifter could qualify, then, as either Family, Mystery or even Commercial, since a few years after he found the original plant (of unknown origin) in his garden, my Grandfather collaborated with a greenhouse operator to distribute plants to the general public. DEFINITELY before the 1940 cut-off; he found the original plant in 1922, although the "Mortgage Lifter" name wasn't registered until 1932. And I and my cousins are the 3rd generation to grow them. So, now, what do I tell folks who ask me about them? Which are they? I'm so confuseded??!!??

Craig's right about being able to incorporate future heirlooms that have been passed down. If you select a straight cut-off date nothing can ever become an heirloom.

I read something like this about antique furniture.

100 years old --antique

75 years old-- heritage

50 years old--vintage

Maybe there could be a term 'modern heirloom' (even though that is an oxymoron) until enough time passes to label it a 'classic heirloom' or 'historical heirloom'.

However I do think it is too late to rescue the term 'heirloom' as it pertains to tomatoes. All the seed catalogs, books, magazine articles call newly created heirlooms 'heirlooms' without giving any defining definition. I just bought the book THE HEIRLOOM TOMATO COOKBOOK and the varieties are not limited to older varieties.

The only people who really have to get it right are those recreating a historical garden and those who do want to make the distinction that certain tomatoes have survived a long passage of time and that makes them singularly different than other open pollinated tomatoes.

yes, the formulation of "heirloom tomato" definitions beyond the traditional definition of heirlooms as family hand-me-downs has provided a marketing gimmick and a trendy catch phrase.

Yes, I agree but there is no turning back now. Some people get all riled up if a certain seed company labels something as rare but it is OK to call a tomato created yesterday an 'heirloom' knowing that the average gardener is not well versed in the various def. of an heirloom. I believe most people who purchase heirloom seeds 'think' they are getting something special and that their grandmother may have grown it.

I am not saying they may not be getting a great tomato but there is a certain level of unintended (or intended) misrepresentation by calling everything an heirloom.

Farkee,

I understand where you're coming from. Maybe we should just let Webster's be our guide: Heirloom:
1. a piece of property that descends to the heir as an inseparable part of an inheritance of real property
2. something of special value handed on from one generation to another
3. a horticultural variety that has survived for several generations usually due to the efforts of private individuals

I know that is rather restrictive considering how out of control the use of "heirloom tomato" has become. But then Webster's is pretty quick on the uptake of pop culture lingo. I noticed "ginormous" was given a spot in Webster's this year:

ginor·mous
Pronunciation: \jî-ËnoÌr-mÉs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: gigantic + enormous
: extremely large : humongous
Here's a few other pop culture words that have made it over the past 50 years: Pop Word in Webster's

So, if anyone would want a new meaning for "heirloom tomato" inserted into Webster's, here's a link that might be helpful: Make My Definition Legal

Who cares. I prefer to worry about taste of the tomato.

In a broad sense "heirloom" has simply become a marketing catch phrase. It's gladly used because it sells a perception or emotional response ("oh like Grandpa used to grow") or serves to create associations and expectations around it ("well it's an heirloom so it should be better and harder to grow so I should expect to pay more for it").

One can take a store bought Florida tomato, tell consumers it is the "heirloom", directly compare it to say a Brandywine and most people will pick the Florida tomato when told it is the heirloom instead. I know because I have done that very thing in a farmer's market to test people.

It can be romanticized spun anyway one wants but when it comes down to it Tom is creating open pollinated lines. That he he may be using (a) certain "heirloom(s)" as (a) parent(s) reflects nothing more than judicious choice of (a) parent(s) to create a new line. Whether or not it is termed a heirloom isnt up to him - it will be up to marketers (like has been done with several of his lines already) or if it sticks around long enough.

I might also add I have tried more heirlooms that where just mediocre than really that outstanding. Apparently some heirlooms stick around solely for the personalization or provenance rather than them really tasting or doing that well - "oh Aunt Gene always grew it" or "but it comes from our family's home country".

Farkee wrote:

This is a topic that can certainly get people very animated and at times all riled up.

*****

And that's so very true.

And how many times have we been down this same path before with threads still in the backpost area? I've lost count.

There are some excellent questions that have been posed, many of them answered before here at GW.

Bill, I knew that Laurel in the past had posted those four definitions but I hadn't realized that Gary had, which surprises me very much.

But in reading there I was also reminded of when the word heirloom was first used, and by whom, and what it referred to initially, as in a bean variety received in 1941. You all can read that paragraph if you wish.

Neither Craig nor I have any control whatsoever as to who might use the categories that we came up with.

Since off hand I know of no other sites that do that, but please correct me if I'm wrong, and since Gary and Laurel are business partners, I wonder if putting those categories at both places is somewhat of a PR move to link to me and my book which many folks now have. And nothing more than that, b'c Gary also wrote his own book about heirloom tomatoes, which is why it surprised me that he made no comment about what he thought about categories or not for heirloom tomatoes.

Ah well, questions galore.

And I'm not going to attempt to answer some of your questions Bill, about commercial heirlooms, b'c I have before, as you know.

My immediate goal is to go take a nap so I can stay up to watch Becket which is on tonight and it's one of my favorite movies with Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole and it hasn't been shown in many years. On TCM for those interested. LOL

Carolyn, who found the posts here quite interesting but who realizes that there will never be accepted answers to many questions that folks ask b'c the range of opinions is just too vast.

OOH, I adore "Becket" and haven't seen it in many years. Peter O'Toole, oh, yeah!! Thanks for the heads-up!

Edie
Who is heading home to get dinner out of the way so she can watch, too.

My thanks to all for the clarifications. (whew)(grin).
My subject was a bit misleading. I believe Mr. Wagner was there as an informative speaker at the annual convention.
Growing out varieties, I gather is his forte' and Preservation of our gardening heritage, SSEs' mission.
I am grateful for all of the above posters as noone would have any clue to debate, experiment or learn, without all of this.
There are so many examples of crafts, trades, traditions being lost in our seemingly speed of light changing world.

I guess that,the crossed "heirloom" is not lost forever to hybridization. It can be dehybridized ,or the gardener/scientist must be sure to keep seeds of the parents , so the original line goes on?
Tom

* anthony_toronto

Who cares. I prefer to worry about taste of the tomato.

I believe Mr. Wagner was there as an informative speaker at the annual convention.
Growing out varieties, I gather is his forte' and Preservation of our gardening heritage, SSEs' mission.

*****

Actually Tom is a professional breeder of both potatoes and tomatoes and does not grow out varieties and accessions ( not named varieties) that he maintains for breeding purposes for preservation of those varieties in terms of listing them himself in the SSE Yearbooks.

Through the years SSE has invited as speakers/workshop leaders at the Campout those whose activities they feel might be of interest to the SSE members and others at Campout and quite a few of those speakers are not SSE members per se.

Carolyn

Upon reading Carolyn137's message that Laurel had posted definitions for "heirloom tomatoes" at her Internet sales site, I thought it prudent to check out her edited version of Carolyn Male's and Craig LeHoullier's original definitions.

And yep ... Laurel stretches Carolyn Male's 1940 cut-off date for "commercial heirloom tomatoes" all the way up to 1960 CE!!!

Here is Laurel's edited definition for "commercial heirloom tomatoes: "The commercial heirloom tomato. Open pollinated tomato varieties more than 40 years old, introduced by seed companies before 1960."

Interestingly, Laurel attributes the definition to Ms. Male and Mr. LeHoullier: "According to two of my favorite tomato pals, experts Carolyn Male and Craig Lehoullier, respected tomato experts; heirloom tomatoes fall into one of four categories ..."

Again, I submit, whether edited to suit the individual seed vendor's purposes or left exactly as originally worded in the OTV newsletter or Ms. Male's book, the "four categories of heirloom tomatoes" essentially has become the industry standard for defining what passes in seed catalogues, gardening periodical articles, and the online tomato growing public for "heirloom tomatoes."

Here are the other three categories of "heirloom tomatoes" as worded or reworded by Laurel at her online sales site:

2. "The family heirloom tomato. Favorite tomato varieties whose seeds have been saved and passed down from generation to generation."

3. "The created heirloom tomato. A tomato that's been crossed deliberately using two heirlooms, or an heirloom and a hybrid, to have certain characteristics. Initially a hybrid, it becomes dehybridized through saving and replanting the seeds for about 5 seasons, until it grows consistently true to what the grower has in mind."

4. "The mystery heirloom tomato. A tomato which arises accidentally from natural cross-pollination or mutation in the garden. This is the way most heirloom varieties originated."

The good news here is that all those wonderful university and privately bred commercial varieties developed between 1940 and 1960 are now HEIRLOOMS!!! Woopie!!!

The sad part is that now someone is gonna have to lobby Laurel to up the bar to 1967, and subsequently year by year to coincide with her "40-year" cut-off date. That would allow other worthy varieties to eventually enter the Heirloom Hall of Fame as time moves on. And as with other heirloom items like jewelry, china vases and watches ... time indeed marches on.

Laurel's Heirloom Interpretations

Here is Laurel's edited definition for "commercial heirloom tomatoes: "The commercial heirloom tomato. Open pollinated tomato varieties more than 40 years old, introduced by seed companies before 1960."

Interestingly, Laurel attributes the definition to Ms. Male and Mr. LeHoullier: "According to two of my favorite tomato pals, experts Carolyn Male and Craig Lehoullier, respected tomato experts; heirloom tomatoes fall into one of four categories ..."

******

I haven't been to Laurel's website in quite a while and last time I looked she had just repeated the 1940 date that was in my book.

She and anyone else is free to do whatever they want to re dates, how long a variety should be around, etc.

But I don't know why she would attribute a 1960 date for commercial varieties to Craig and myself, as you suggested above, b'c a 1960 date was never mentioned by either of us before or indeed considered.

Again, anyone who has an opinion about these matters can share that opinion.

I expect folks to respect my opinions, just as I respect the opinions of others. But that doesn't mean I accept all other opinions, and it doesn't mean that anyone has to accept my opinions or Craig's on these issues.

Carolyn

Yeah ... I'm a member of that school of mutual respect myself, and tend to dole it out in about the same proportions as I see it doled out to others.

Bill

Heirloom Breeding:
Tomato's, Tomatoe's/ Valued and or Cherished, in a Spirit of Preserving our food heritage, handed down to future generations with the purest and time proven scientific means, blended with common sense, orthodox or unorthodox, honorable methods of growing, harvesting, dispersing, and teaching, given the human frailties and flaws in us all, dealing with the gift of nature.
Thanks for great taste in tomatoes and people out there.
Tom

I had bookmarked this post so that I might answer some of the issues brought up. That was many months ago.

I gave a talk and conducted three workshops at the SSE Convention last July, 2007. I finally received my copy from Steph of the 2007 Harvest edition. Anybody else just getting theirs?

There are seven pages in the edition following my title, THE HISTORY, PRESENT ACTIVITIES AND FUTURE PLANS OF AN HEIRLOOM PLANT BREEDER.

I have yet to read through the edition to see what I said. If anyone has a copy, you may want to read it. If you don't have a copy you may wish to go to my private blog and new forum for excerpts.

There seems to be some misconceptions and inaccuracies about my breeding program, but what else is new?

The sign ups for my workshops exceeded all other workshops and I wish I could name all the fine folks I visited with. Most members attending that convention said my talks were informative and funny at the same time. Most said I was as much an Heirloom breeder as anybody. I'm tickled that I have broadened the perpective of Heirlooms.

Tom Wagner aka Tater Mater

I only have a personal opinion on this topic. I think that any tomato that is open pollinated and comes true from seed should be deemed an heirloom. IT seems a lot of people have been interchanging the two terms anyway. And in time if the seeds comes true, it certainly would fit the criteria of an "heirloom" whatever that time period seems to be.Maybe 'heirloom' should be used less and 'open pollinated' should be used more. To me, it really doesn't matter, I just want to beable to save seeds and have them come true. I am not to picky on 'heirloom' or ~whatever. The discussions I am seeing here about definitions of heirloom and hybrid and etc. are really just confusing and are really about monikers and not really about the seeds. PLEASE clarifly and correct if I am wrong.

There is a USDA Theaurus definition.

From my reading and research I have formed my description that all heirlooms are op's but not all op's are heirlooms. I tend to follow Carolyn and Craig's definitions and also being an antique dealer collector the descriptions for antiques given in a previous post in this thread. The term "antique" is just as mis used. I have learned to make my own informed judgements about them and do the same with tomatoes. It comes down to some people will stretch any rule to make a buck. The other term mentioned that upsets others when used is "rare." It is used also as a marketing tool to sell products. People changing names bothers some greatly. I'm like some have learned through 55 years of life that it is going to happen and there is way more important things in life and don't even worry about it. If I buy a tomato and it grows true to description and does well in my garden I don't really care what the person who sold it called it. I will save seeds if an op and continue to grow it.
I apologize for getting off the intention of this thread. I just want to say to Tom Wagner I really enjoyed reading the article about you in the SSE book. Yes I just recently received it also. Enjoyed everyones input and ideas on this thread. Happy gardening. Jay

I think there are several a simple way to solve this quandary.
1. Get goverment in involved to define the cut off date.
That way if someone decides lie about vegetables history they get fined a lot money.
2. go with 1949 introduction the date of the most successful hybrid variety Burpee's big boy.
3. abolish the term heirloom and go with heritage.
4. go with Modern OP term to define new none hybrid varieties.

How about if we have a National Heirloom Tomato Society who will bestow a Heirloom title upon those it deems worthy.

I feel a heirloom tomato has to have been passed down for a very long time. I do not think that any new varieties like Green Zebra can be called heirlooms. Then what happens to the status of those varieties that were developed in the 1800's. A new Green Zebra does not deserve the same Heirloom status as does a Cherokee Purple or a Brandywine or one of the Livingston tomatoes.

I grew out Green Zebra and would never grow it out again. So it will never make heirloom status through my efforts. It takes a very special tomato to be so good that someone keeps growing it for generations.

Now what would we do with a Cherokee Chocolate that is a sport out of a valid Cherokee Purple. Well I would let the National Heirloom Tomato Society make a decision on that. I would probably prefer a slightly different designation.

The USDA is already steering the terminology towards "Heritage" and I think their definition eliminates "manufactured heirlooms" made by crossing to existing heirlooms--the outcome is a hybrid regardless of the origin parents.

Now what would we do with a Cherokee Chocolate that is a sport out of a valid Cherokee Purple. Well I would let the National Heirloom Tomato Society make a decision on that. I would probably prefer a slightly different designation.

****

Cherokee Chocolate resulted from a simple epidermis mutation from clear to yellow and you'll see that Craig recognized that by naming it Cherokee Chocolate.

It's the same heirloom with a different exterior color but all else is the same with the exception of ONE mutated gene so it remains an heirloom ( also see below).

Dangould, what slightly different designation would you suggest other than what Craig did which was to change the name to recognize the mutation color change?

No one knows the complex genetics that allowed Cherokee Chololate to become Cherokee Green which happened in the growing field of Darrell Merrell and even Darrell didn't know it until he sent back fresh seeds of CC to Craig and Craig found it in his growouts.

Genes mutate all the time. The most frequent change , as regards epidermis mutations, is from a pink tomato ( Clear epidermis) to a red one ( yellow epidermis)

I've had several such mutations occur in my own tomato patch but I never distribute seeds for the mutated one, only what the original was. Just my decision, and no, I'm not saying that Craig was wrong in naming and distributing CC. Someone in TX has a JD's Special C-Tex, normally a black, change to a pink; yet another example.

But if you look thru several seed sites and thru the SSE YEarbooks you'll see that color change mutants are there.

One source said that about 95% of all OP so called heirloom tomatoes arose by natural Cross pollination and then selection, and about 5% arose from mutation from a pre-existing variety, and here I don't mean necessarily just a color change.

No matter who suggests a definition for what an heirloom tomato variety should be as to criteria to be satisfied, there never ever will be consensus.

Makes life more interesting for those of us who have been or are somewhat obsessed with tomatoes. ( smile)

Carolyn

Tom:
I am so glad that you get tickled from your efforts :)
I hope to be as informative and instructive to others as Carolyn and yourself. I personally have learned so much valuable info from the posters here, and am grateful for the knowledge.
I found as a real newbie a few years ago, Who would dream there was so much to learn about tomatoes? Now my garden is even more enjoyable.
When I am asked, as it happens so often--- "What is a heirloom?"----- I can remember the info in this post and first reply with---- "do you have the rest of the day?" or "you weren't planning on sleeping any time soon were you?"

Just kidding you guys, very informable discussion!!!!
Would subscribing to SSE be the way to read your writings from the convention?

Tom
(sheepish for not being a member of the SSE already)

In the end, it's all a matter of semantics. A tomato is either a hybrid or open pollinated (regardless of stability).
The word heirloom denotes the passing of something cherished to the next generation within a family or some other communal group. I agree the term is often used too loosely and as a marketing gimmick.

I'm developing two varieties, but I wouldn't dream of calling them "heirlooms" unless I start giving them away or pass them on to my family. Right now, they're just unstable OP varieties.