True, and the vagaries of weather may be why Sudduth strain is not (yet) performing as advertised. I do admire the consistency of my Ferry-Morse version, though. I highly doubt they are the same strain though. BW Sudduth is a much bigger plant, and dropped their early blossoms. BW-FM gave earlier, big tomatoes,with less late pollination, while BW-S are empty halfway up with many late,tiny fruit. To me that equals lower cold and wet Sudduthy tolerance for fruit set.

So for warmer climates, Sudduth may be more prolific. For most of the country, they WILL get better results. But on the northern border in a cold, wet year, it falters badly.

For what it's worth;

I've grown Sudduth Brandy many years and it has always been great for me. Only one year was the yield low and that was so long ago that I can't remember if it was Sudduth or another strain that I used to grow before I tried Sudduth. So at least 15 years growing Brandywine, all excellent, usually 30 or so fruit per plant, and only one year where I got maybe 7 or 8 fruit per plant. That's a pretty good performance record I'd say.

BrandyBoy isn't a bad substitution at all. Some here have said they had better luck with it than Brandywine. I give a slight edge in taste to Brandywine but Brandyboy is a very tasty tomato in it's own right.

I think that there are (Brandywines) and (Brandywines) I have grown almost all the available varieties of it, and never yet had one that produced thirty or so fruit per plant, mostly 5 to 8 if you are lucky.

The ones that (Bigdaddyi) has grown over the many years must be a selective strain produced many years ago of it,that obviously does a lot better than the norm, I only wish I could get my hands on a few seeds of these to try- they sound very good indeed-as all the ones I have tried are so finicky and fussy as to conditions of soil and temperature , the best so far have been (Joyce's Strain) and (Johnnie's strain) and also for taste- but I have tasted a lot of tomatoes that taste better- the best so far being ( Shaker Village) which might not be its true name as its debatable - but what a lovely strong flavour-very moorish, and a very good grower too.

Like I said elsewhere, I have given up on Brandywine. Now I probably did not have the Sudduth strain and certainly not the Shaker Village strain but I suspect this is all a lot of mumbo jumbo. If Brandywine is a tomato and it is so good then why do I have to wade through 10 of the same thing to find one that might work.

In another thread the other day, I was thinking I need to try Sudduth. Now in this thread I am thinking why bother.

I suspect that the public, the little guys like me, are going to get tired of chasing BW and will just eventually give up on it.

If someone wants to share some seeds that have a good production every year, I will give them one more try. But really I think I am going to move on to other varieties for now.

For example I am getting more interested in trying to grow a huge tomato. Right now I would prefer some great genetics on big ones. Is anyone having any success this year getting a big tomato??? Anything over 2 pounds or close to it would be great.

The Brandywine I have been growing the last few years has been from Johnny's. Johnny's sells the Sudduth variety. I do not save seeds. I have no idea why so many people who post here have so many problems getting Brandywine to produce. I have no problems with the variety whatsoever. Maybe this is an anomoly. I have no idea!

But I do recommend to anyone who has trouble with Brandywine to try BrandyBoy from Burpee. It is VERY similar to Sudduth Brandy in my garden two years running.

As a home gardener, productivity is not my most important concern. And since Brandywine is still the best tasting tomato I'm ever grown, I'm willing to forgive it productivity and durability weaknesses.

But I've only grown 3 other heirloom tomatoes (Caspian Pink, Cherokee Purple and Prudens Purple). I should really try some others (I don't want to start another "favorites" debate), but it is hard for me not to use seeds I already have. LOL!

Come next January, I may try some different heirlooms. But I will always grow at least one Brandywine.

Overrated all depends upon what each of us expect, and what our aims are when we grow tomatoes. for sheer flavor power, Brandywine, in a good year, is pretty much unbeatable - though the Cherokee Purples I had this year, and a few of the later cherokee Greens, would give it a run for its money.

It really is not only about our expectations, but what we enjoy in a tomato. For me, the most overrated variety is Kellogg's Breakfast - grown it many times, tried some real beauties - but the taste always leaves me scratching my head and wondering why so many people love it.

Craig

I am the Brandywine Queen,
Thank you all very much,
Please hold the applause.
Brandywine in my opinion and experience, which is vast with this particular variety, is the best hands down of ANY other tomato. IF you have the right one. I have grown quite of few "Brandywines" from all different sources. Some are awful!! The best in my experience and great in my zone has always been Chuck Wyatt's Sudduth strain. Closely followed by Tomato Grower's Purple Brandywine, with fabulous back ups coming from Jung's Brandywine and TomatoFest Brandywine.
Just my humble opinion.
Oh and my plants are 8 feet tall and LOADED with fruit. YUM!!!
Amy.

I would not fail to grow it any year. Best flavor ever. This year I'd have to say the pinks even outshone the yellows for, as Craig says "sheer flavor power".

But there are other tomatoes that taste very very good and don't break my heart quite so much, with the yield and the season length and all manner of other things.

Bigdaddyi- that's funny - because the ones I have are genuine Johnny's Brandywines, and they never produce anything like 20 or 30 tomatoes per plant, usually about 8 to 10, but they are very good and quite a nice flavour compared to other brandywines, it must be something you are doing or feeding them with, that gives extra flowers on the trusses-(let us into the secret :),or chilling them a little to about 54 degrees during the time the first flower buds are forming, which is supposed to improve flower bud numbers.

I feel that the main problem with most other strains of BW is that they are a little too creamy in their texture, rather than a firmer type of flesh, and the stronger flavoured ones may benefit from a good quality manure in the base of the planting hole which does appear to improve the flavour in some varieties-but not in others ??.

Brandywine Sudduth - Overrated?

NO

It tastes supurb, consistently. Never really productive for me though, but it does well in zone 9 for me, and I'll always make at least 1 spot available for it.

mickeyfinn,

Interesting that we grow the same seeds and get different results on a yearly basis. Climate, latitude, whims of the tomato gods perhaps?

For what it's worth, here's how I grow all my tomatoes:

organic
raised beds
proper spacing (Common mistake is plants too close together)
lots of compost
thick organic mulch
soaker hose
a few shots of seaweed/fish stuff only early in the season and then no more fert.

I have a long growing season. I have found that where I am if I get huge plants i get great production. I transplant out nice 8 week old starts and make sure they have plenty of water. I never prune. My plants get huge and thus the production I suppose.

Sudduth plant has 8, just turning color.
OTV plant has 15, barely starting to turn.

So production is an issue, but taste, no that is not an issue. My mouth is watering as I contemplate a future slice of a Brandywine tomato on my BBQ-ed burger.

Bigdaddyi- thanks for the info- its a little different from the methods I use, but I shall give your method a try next season and see what difference it makes-hopefully.

well i guess the the bigger the the plant the more tomatoes one might expect.

I grew BWs for the first time this year and was badly disappointed. The production has been low but that would have been ok if they had tasted as good as their reputation says they should. Instead, they were bland in my opinion. I'm glad I tried them but won't grow them again.

That said, I realize that "taste" is really a personal issue and what I consider excellent someone else might hate. My personal preference is for the old, deep red, acidic tasting varieties like Rutgers and Beefsteak. Neither of them do very well anymore due to disease issues but I may go back to them next year anyway and see what happens.

For what it's worth, I don't consider any variety to be either overrated or underrated.

No two people grow tomatoes the same way, or have the same soil, or use the same containers, or add the same amendments or have the same weather in any one season, or are usually using the same seed source for a variety.

I can grow variety X and one season it's great and another season less great.

If a variety comes to me well recommended and it doesn't perform, I always grow it a second year b'c of all the variables that can enter into fruit production, taste, and disease prevalence.

Over the years I know what my faves are b'c they taste great to me and produce well. And I'm always looking for that next one to add to my personal faves.

Each person, I think, has got to realize that not everyone is going to have the same experience with the same variety and then having given it a second chance if the variety is important to that person, just move on to the next varieties one wants to try.

Carolyn

Apparently, the original point of my post has been lost.

I say BW Sudduth is overrated compared to other strains of BW. I never said anything about other varieties. Of course BW Sudduth tastes the same as any other BW strain. That's a given.

All a particular strain is supposed to do is give you either an earlier harvest, smoother or larger fruit, or increased production. But it is still all the same variety.

I'm saying that in the northern cold climate I live in Sudduth is actually inferior to other strains. Down south, it probably is better, because it certainly isn't as cold-tolerant as the one I've been growing for 4 years, and is half as productive.

Apparently, the original point of my post has been lost.
I say BW Sudduth is overrated compared to other strains of BW. I never said anything about other varieties. Of course BW Sudduth tastes the same as any other BW strain. That's a given.

*****

E, you've grown the Sudduth strain and Brandywine from Walmart. As I've said many times, if no strain designation is given for Brandywine then it doesn't exclude the fact that your Walmart one is also Sudduth. You see a difference, yes, but what other reasons can you give to explain that?

And you did mention other varieties as doing very well for you.

(All a particular strain is supposed to do is give you either an earlier harvest, smoother or larger fruit, or increased production. But it is still all the same variety.)

A strain can mean what you say but it also can just mean that the name of the person who first listed it in the SSE Yearbook is associated with that Brandywine listing. So it does make it hard to compare and I didn't and wouldn't expect strains of Brandywine to have all the attributes you listed above.

(I'm saying that in the northern cold climate I live in Sudduth is actually inferior to other strains. Down south, it probably is better, because it certainly isn't as cold-tolerant as the one I've been growing for 4 years, and is half as productive.)

So you're saying that the Brandywine Sudduth is inferior to your Walmart one, just two strains/seed sources tried, and one does better than the other.

You say down south, and I know you mean real south, LOL but I am a few hundred miles south of you.

Let me share with you my Brandywine experience.

When I first joined SSE there were many many strains of Brandywine listed. I grew maybe 4 or 5 of them and couldn't understand what all the hype was about. The fruits of all them were somewhat irregular and I didn't think the taste was anything special.

Then Craig sent me the Sudduth one and I quickly became a believer. LOL Smooth fruits and excellent taste and productivity here in my now 4b/5a area has been just fine.

But I do know what you're saying and maybe it's best to just say in your zone, having tried two different Brandywines from two different sources that one does better than the other. ( smile)

Carolyn, looking, looking for rain. It is so very dry here, no water in the brook, no water going over the waterfall. Bad.

That doesn't surprise me at all.

This is the first year it was a normal summer here, which means much colder than it has been. In my second post I said:

"So for warmer climates, Sudduth may be more prolific. For most of the country, they WILL get better results. But on the northern border in a cold, wet year, it falters badly."

That is what I'm saying, for all of us cold climate growers. Sudduth lost all its early blossoms, while my generic BW kept them, giving me many more fruit, and 3 weeks earlier.

We are in a much different climate. A couple hundred miles, and a 1000 ft. elevation difference, is 2 zones worth. In fact, there have already been 2 frosts here already. The first was August 19, and the second last Tuesday night. Luckily, my higher elevation saved me as it "only" dropped to 39 and 40 here, respectively.

Though not a drought, we had our first downpour this morning in 2 weeks, the first time this summer we went more than a week without rain. (And the first time I was able to go a whole week without having to mow the %#+@ lawn ;-))

In a "global warming" year, Sudduth may very well outproduce mine. We'll see next year maybe.

barkeater first off it sounds like you have learn on how to grow long season tomatoes properly in your area.
Second, You need to learn how to grow tomatoes period before you start to worry about which variety are best.
Third, You need to find a good book on growing tomatoes in New England.

barkeater first off it sounds like you have learn on how to grow long season tomatoes properly in your area.
Second, You need to learn how to grow tomatoes period before you start to worry about which variety are best.
Third, You need to find a good book on growing tomatoes in New England.

*****

Hmmm, there's no reason you'd know it but Bark is a very proficient and experienced tomato grower and was a commercial tomato grower in NJ before he moved to the tundra region of NYS. ( smile)

Since he's moved there he's started to grow more OP's than hybrids and it does take growing lots of different varieties to see which ones do well in his very cold growing zone.

Carolyn

carolyn137 :judging by barks posts, I not did have any idea of his experience or his location. Since, he bills himself on his info page as being in Vermont and his results seem indicate lack of experience and poor technique.

I certainly believe it's tough to grow in far-upstate NY. I barely get any summer tomatoes from it here in zone 5. (but this year, just barely a 5, almost like a 6 really)

It breaks my heart every year, and I notice a distinct drop-off in flavor once the weather cools.

I am intrigued by this thread. It certainly sounds like there are some real differences in Brandywine/Brandywine Suddith depending on the strain, the source, and/or maybe the growing zone. I would enjoy trying some of the various Brandywines side-by-side. OTV and Ben Q's Suddith from Johnny's Seed are definatley on the list.

Irishtomatobabe
Can you (or anyone else) please tell me where I might get seeds for Chuck Wyatt's Suddith Strain. (I believe from what I am reading here and at Victory Seed's history of Brandywine that Chuck Wyatt's Suddith Strain is the same as Joyce's Suddith Strain referred to by Micky Finn.)

I would also like to try the Shaker Village strain. Anyone know where I might find these seeds as well.

Thank you

Bob - NLight

Can you (or anyone else) please tell me where I might get seeds for Chuck Wyatt's Suddith Strain. (I believe from what I am reading here and at Victory Seed's history of Brandywine that Chuck Wyatt's Suddith Strain is the same as Joyce's Suddith Strain referred to by Micky Finn.)

******

Chuck's Brandywine ( Sudduth) was the same as everyone else's Sudduth, he may well have even gotten it from me b/c he requested all the varieties in my book that he wasn't currently carrying and beinbg an SSE member he, in addition, had access to the Brandywine ( Sudduth) that was listed there if he didn't get it from me. it's just too many years ago for me to remember if I was his source or another SSE member.

In any case any source for Brandywine (Sudduth) will get you what you want, and that might include Johnny's or TGS or Sandhill, for instance.

As I think I explained above, maybe not, Joyce's strain is simply a selection of Sudduth that Chuck made for earliness but folks who have grown it see no real difference between it and Sudduth proper that he started with. So they are one and the same.

******
I would also like to try the Shaker Village strain. Anyone know where I might find these seeds as well.

Very long story here, short version, there appears to not be any Shaker Village strain of Brandywine that has been documented as being Brandywine.

Carolyn, raised in a Shaker built home that was just a few miles from Mother Ann Lee's first Shaker settlement in the US which was near the Albany, NY airport in what was then known as Watervliet. So I represent myself as being somewhat Shaker savvy re what they grew and when, and the when is the important part here as regards the availability of something called Brandywine ( Sudduth). ( smile) There are a couple of Shaker settlements that have current demo gardens but anything called Shaker Village as this was b'c the person who picked it up just picked it up at one of those places and it was never IDed , as I said above, as being Brandywine.

Hi Carolyn,

I am always glad to read your responses on this forum. It is such an honor to hear from such an expert on these things.

I need a little clarification on your last response here, if you don't mind. You say the Joyce's strain is simply a selection of Sudduth that Chuck Wyatt made for earliness but folks who have grown it see no real difference between it and Sudduth proper that he started with. So they are one and the same.

But Irishtomatobabe, the "Queen of Brandywines", (both great names, Amy) indicates that Chuck's selection seemed to perform better for her here in zone 4 repeatedly, due to it's earliness. Could it be that Chuck's selection has some characteristics that only come out in short-season cold-weather growing areas that are overrun with cheese and beer? LOL If so, I think I'd like to try a side-by-side growing comparison of my own, since earliness is one of the biggest factors to me.

What dya think?

wi-northernlight - Bob, who kinda likes long stories, especially if they involve tomatoes, and would love to hear about the Shakers, their village, and their tomatoes.

I must have posted this dozens of times but here it is again:
I was fortunate to discover Brandywine Pink through the old Seed Savers catalogue when this variety was first introduced. Back then there was only one Brandywine (pink, Sudduth, Quisenberry). Today quite a few seed companies and especially transplants sold by Garden Centers offer inferior strains of Brandywine so the first thing you have to make sure is to get the true Sudduth (also called Quisenberry) strain, e.g. from Johnny's of Maine, quote:
Around 1980 a Mrs. Sudduth of Tennessee gave seeds said to be in her family for 100 years, to tomato seedsman, Ben Quisenberry of Ohio. This is a strain that Craig LeHoullier believes is of the original Brandywine (end of quote).
I grew Brandywine Pink next to my old favorites and immediately became convinced that Brandywine was by far the best tomato I have ever tasted. This opinion has not changed in nearly 20 years comparing Brandywine Pink to over 100 other taste champions, although Marianna's Peace recently introduced by TomatoFest comes close to or even matches Brandywine Sudduth in taste. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am a big Brandywine Sudduth fan, by the way not only due to the wonderful flavor but also due to the truly unique mouth watering texture of a vine-ripened Brandywine. I also grew Brandywine Red Landis strain and this is a different animal altogether. While the Landis strain is quite nice neither taste nor texture match Brandywine Pink Sudduth strain.

As experienced Brandywine Pink growers know, this variety does not set fruits in hot weather (possibly due to defective blossoms or split calyces as was pointed out on this forum by Carolyn and I think Craig), even here in Southern CTs zone 5. As VP International I had to travel and live in different parts of North America and Europe. I grew Brandywine in Northern Germany, Dublin/Ireland and Northern Italy. As Brandywine is a late season variety, starting the plants early and getting them into the ground early was absolutely necessary in Germany and Ireland and is also important here in CT. I use efficient Metal Halide grow lights and cool basement conditions which gives me sturdy stocky plants. It allows me to start Brandywine 9 weeks before setting them into the ground. I plant well established, hardened, stocky plants out in early /mid May depending on the weather conditions and go out of my way to protect them against cold temperatures. I noticed that Brandywine did really well in the lower sun intensity countries so while my other tomatoes are planted in full sun, Brandywine does best in an area where high trees block the summer sun around lunchtime. However, you will also get good yield if you follow these rules:
Most gardeners are growing tomatoes in far too rich soil or over-fertilized soil and often use too much fresh compost. Carolyn Male, author of "100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden" said it best, quote:
The result of using compost in the planting hole and added to the soil and using too much fertilizer and too many amendments is that plants are stressed by growing too fast and the stress helps induce blossom end rot and also makes the plants far more susceptible to various diseases (end of quote).
Over-fertilized soil prevents early fruit set. Add to that the fact that Brandywine does not set fruit in hot weather and what do you get: Disappointing yields.
By observing the above mentioned suggestions:
1. Start early
2. Grow the plants in soil that has been fertilized the year before
3. Try to provide some shade during hot summer month
you will get good yields. I foliar feed with a marine brown algae extract and water once with a stinging nettle manure tea after first fruit set. This procedure is repeated when the first fruits start to turn pink and after the first significant harvest. While tomatoes are ripening I will side dress sparingly with a high potash natural fertilizer blend based on sunflower, rapeseed and soybean meal together with kelp meal, lignite, rock phosphate and mined sulphate of potash or greensand. The ratio is N:P:K 5:4:8.
ThatÂs it. Follow these instructions and you will be astonished about the yield increase of Brandywine Sudduth strain. And if you have never grown Brandywine, get ready for a treat.

Ack, almost everything I have been doing to "help" my Brandywines is killing them?

I've been deliberately trying to add sunlight, warmth, and compost! This is really cruel to read.

Brandywine is an excellent producing tomato for me here in Alabama. The key is to start early and transplant just as soon as the weather is stable. I usually get from 30 to 50 tomatoes per plant. However, Brandywine is very susceptible to several diseases that are promoted by high moisture conditions and it is very intolerant of lack of moisture. It does not set fruit very well in hot weather as noted above. I have had the best flavor and production using high levels of organics in the soil.

Fusion

(I need a little clarification on your last response here, if you don't mind. You say the Joyce's strain is simply a selection of Sudduth that Chuck Wyatt made for earliness but folks who have grown it see no real difference between it and Sudduth proper that he started with. So they are one and the same.)

Yes, they appear to be one and the same. Many folks try to select for larger size, for earliness, etc, but what they don't realize is that you can't go from A to B unless there
s been a mutation. And so adaptation for almost anything takes years and years and growouts of thousands of plants. This has been discussed just recently at another place where I post and there I used the example of Ehtiopian wheat that took about 2000 years to adapt and such changed plants are called landraces.

(But Irishtomatobabe, the "Queen of Brandywines", (both great names, Amy) indicates that Chuck's selection seemed to perform better for her here in zone 4 repeatedly, due to it's earliness. Could it be that Chuck's selection has some characteristics that only come out in short-season cold-weather growing areas that are overrun with cheese and beer? LOL If so, I think I'd like to try a side-by-side growing comparison of my own, since earliness is one of the biggest factors to me.

What dya think? )

I think it's best that you do try a side by side comparison so that you have both growing in the same season. And since there's biological diversity within a variety you need to plant several plants of each.

If you were to plant 10 plants of variety X I think you'd see that not all the plants were exactly the same. There would be slight differences in internode length, perhaps subtle differences in leaf form, and more, and those who are used to seeing such differences can spot those changes when others can't.

But I'm sure you'd also see differences even in the rate of ripening amongst some of those plants, and again, that's the biological divsersity inherent in a variety that's showing up.

No two folks grow tomatoes the same, have the same soil, use the same methods or amendments and have the same weather. So the only way you can answer any question for yourself , and now with regard to Brandywine ( Sudduth) vs Brandywine ( Joyce's) is to grow many plants of each one in the same season and make your own comparisons.

And no, based on reports I've seen over time Brandywine ( Joyce's) has not been earlier in cooler climates.

Right now I'm looking at the 2007 SSE Yearbook listings and there are a slew of listings for Brandywine ( no strain listed) and Brandywine ( Sudduth) from many areas of the US and the range of DTM's is from about 75 days to 90 days for individual listers as determined in the season before they sent in their listing.

Only two folks list the Joyce's strain, one in Arizona who says 90 days and one in IA who says 80 days.

Hope that helps.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

Yes it certainly does help. Thank you very much.

Ten of each? OK. I now understand how you got to be growing so many tomatoes. I had been trying 3-4 of each variety and thought that was a lot.

Although, this year I did grow 20 of one variety, 10 pruned to single vines and 10 pruned to multiple vines. The production records are interesting. As you say, I did notice differences in plant size, internode length, blossom size, and of course, earliness and production. I had never noticed these things before as my attention had always been on one thing only: the fruit. I will post my findings sometime soon.

My wife and I are impressed with your mannerism in instructing, which shines through again and again in your postings. Not many experts have the patience you show nor the ability to instruct with such authority, yet such meekness. Remarkable.

Thanks again for your helpful instruction.

Bob - an expert in his own field, with plenty of authority, yet aspiring to more patience and meekness.