I can check, but I don't remember offering an F2 Brandywine X Stupice cross, unless it was maybe 10 years ago here at GW when I used to do seed offers here, but do them elsewhere now.

What I offered were crosses from Stanley Zubrowsky in Canada and he had crossed Brandywine with several early varieties such as Glacier and Stupice and I can't remember the others now. I saved F2 seeds from all of them and offered them here only, of course not SSE listing them. Stanley was trying to breed some taste into some earlies

I think it was the Brandywine X Stupice cross that Jeff Casey, who has a seed site in Canada, something like heirloom seeds of Airdrie followed up on and got a really good one that
he named, well, I just had to look it up, see the link below.

Reading the link to Maya and Sions one I see I offered it in 2004.

What you have should be much smaller than Brandywine as you read at the link below and most plants would have red fruits since all the earlies he used were red and red is dominant to pink, As I recall from all five crosses I got red mini beefsteaks, I know I did. They were cute. LOL

But if F3 seeds were saved and planted out, many of them, it's perfectly possible that a pink fruited plant might show up b'c of what's called genetic segregation where the genes are sorting themselves out. But no plants with fruits the size of Brandywine fruits would be common.

And no reversions to either parent would be genetically possible. How many years did you grow it out and when you had it genetically stable what was the leaf form.

No you don't have Brandywine. When two varieties are crossed the resulting F1 hybrid has a mixture of genes from both parents. Folks who save F2 seeds from that initial hybrid then have to put out many many plants to find something they might like. And that would have been true for the F2 seeds I saved from the hybrids that Stanley sen t me.

I think Jeff mentioned in the Maya link that it took him 5 years to make a selection and then grow it out each year until the varietiy was genetically stable,

Hope that helps,

Carolyn, who was surprised to see you post that several have grown those initial F2 seeds b'c I'm not aware of anyone other than Jeff Casey following through. Were you growing the initial F2 seeds I offered in 2004? If so, how was the germination? Seeds would have been produced in 2003 so the seeds would be 10 years old now.

Here is a link that might be useful: Click on Maya and Sions in the list to read

I am only growing it first year and was told they should have been early, red, tasty, multi-lobed and sometimes kind of bumpy�"more like a mini Brandywine than a Stupice. Then my friend has another selection of it with rounder, darker and purpley coloring more Stupicey so I am told.
I like them a lot and will be growing again and will see what happens next year.

Carolyn gave you a good detailed description ..

To me "BRANDYWINE" is no longer represents any specific variety. Because it has been crossed, doubble crossed with so many, that the originality is lost. You have, pink, red, black, purple, blue, PL, RL, ...

But I have one plant that is said to be just "Brandywine". No prefix. no suffix. Its fruits are much bigger and kind of lobed.
So, I can see no resemblance between your tomatoes and the Brandywine THAT I HAVE.

I am only growing it first year and was told they should have been early, red, tasty, multi-lobed and sometimes kind of bumpy�"more like a mini Brandywine than a Stupice. Then my friend has another selection of it with rounder, darker and purpley coloring more Stupicey so I am told.
I like them a lot and will be growing again and will see what happens next year.

&&&&&

They shouldn't be bumpy, they just look like mini- beefsteaks, as I mentioned above, and not multi-lobed. How many plants did you put out so you could see any variation in plants and fruits due to genetic segregation as I mentioned above,

And those seeds were offered here in 2004, grown by me in 2003 when I saved the F2 seeds from the initial hybrids sent to me by Stanley. So I really am interested in what your germination rate was.

Stupice is a small round red, it has no purple coloration at all, so I'd forget about that. What the Stupice parent does is to give a smaller sized fruit since small fruits are dominant to larger fruits in such crosses.

What are you planning to grow out next year? Can I assume you made a selection from the several plants you grew this last summer, saved seeds, now the F3 seeds, and if so, why did you make the selection you did? Just curious.

Carolyn

To me "BRANDYWINE" is no longer represents any specific variety.

&&&&

It most certainly does represent a specific variety.( smile)

I just wrote you a very long post going into the history of Brandywines,pure Brandywines, varieties where Brandywine was one parent, strains of Brandywines and so much more, and when I went to get a link or two to put here I lost the whole post. GULP!

So I'll be back, I don't know when, to try and recreate what I posted for you and then lost it, darn.

Carolyn

Mine is only 1 plant, given to me as a seedling, however I have verified with my friend, seeds indeed were received 2004 and since then several people have grown it, not clear if any specific criteria selection were made or people just grew one plant, liked it and saved seeds. I started questioning my plant cross history because it is midseason, pink and not small so I really see nothing of the Stupice. So for next year I plan to grow couple of my seeds and hopefully will get seeds from couple of other people who grew same plant, we will see. It does taste great so is well worth investigating. I might not have better palate but am also growing Nickolaevna Pink this year and would not be able to differ by taste from my BW cross so am sure there are plenty of those F2 were liked and grown since.

Actually, I followed through with several of the Brandywine X crosses over the last several years. Unfortunately, the crosses were not very well chosen with the exception of the Brandywine X Polish. The rest gave significantly poor flavor and/or horticultural problems with plant habit. Brandywine X Polish turned out to be a bit better than either parent in production and flavor.

The crosses that should be made with Brandywine include:
Brandywine X Eva Purple Ball - to improve fruit set and production and to reduce core size
Brandywine X Jagodka - To get early fruit set into a better flavored and larger tomato
Brandywine X Tastiheart - to get a deeper bodied Brandywine flavored tomato.

This post was edited by fusion_power on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 0:44

Darrel, that's your idea of what should have been done, but Stanley was doing what he thought was best back in the early 90's as to trying to introduce some better taste with some early varieties.

Why don't you do the crosses you suggested and keep us informed. ( smile)

Just noting to the the original poster that growing just one plant from F2 seeds is not going to be helpful for all the reasons I mentioned above.

And I would be concerned if you have those original seeds from 2004 and plan to germinate seeds of 10 yo seeds, you said a couple of them, that you would get decent germination. There are sime t ricks one can use for old seeds, but it would depend on the total number of seeds you have at hand

Carolyn

Darrel, as I was eating lunch I just remembered that there already is a cross between Brandywine and Eva Purple Ball, done by Jeff McCormack when he still owned SESE. Tania has no info about it, Jeff sent me seeds and I never grew it, but a descriotion might be, well, I just did a Google search and lots of info about it, link at the bottom,

I'm not sure why you said that the crosses you listed SHOULD be been done, when yours have nothing to do with trying to introduce some taste into some earlies which is what Stanley was trying to do.

You wrote:

The crosses that should be made with Brandywine include:
Brandywine X Eva Purple Ball - to improve fruit set and production and to reduce core size
Brandywine X Jagodka - To get early fruit set into a better flavored and larger tomato
Brandywine X Tastiheart - to get a deeper bodied Brandywine flavored tomato.

1st one, I've grown Brandywine for many many years and have never once seen a core. Yes, Eva could alter Brandywine for higher yield? I guess I'm saying that I like Brandywine just the way it is and would like to keep it that way.

Besides, many have noted that growing Brandywine in the south often doesn't work out well at all, and living in Alabama as you do, I'm sure you would resonate with that as to core problems and low yields.

I do know and have grown Tastiheart, or perhaps its relative Heshpole, and I guess you think that Tastiheart tastes better than Brandywine. So be it, but again, what would you select for in terms of heart or beefsteak shapes as being better than Brandywine?

I don't know Jagoda so can't speak to that one.

Carolyn, who did taste all five of the F1's that Stanley sent her and not a spitter was experienced. Since you had only F2 seeds to work with I haven no idea what you selected for nor how many plants of each that you set out that led you to make the comment about tastes that you did..

Here is a link that might be useful: Brandeva, Google Search

Correction.

As I was reading links from that Google search I saw that Brandywine was mentioned as one parent, and OTV Brandywine was mentioned by others.

So I went to Garden Medicinals, the other site that Jeff McCormack had and he says it was OTV Brandywine, not Brandywine, that he used as one parent.

Link below.

Carolyn

Here is a link that might be useful: OTV Brandywine vs Brandywine

Carolyn - The linked website describes Brandywine OTV as, "Fruits are an attractive deep red with an orange undertone". This is my first year to grow them. I got the seed in a trade. I would describe mine as pink with an orange undertone. Do I have the real thing or do I have a cross?
John A

John, when OTV Brandywine is full ripe it definitely is RED. I worked with it fro 5 years before I got it to stability so know it well.
So if yours is pink now,let's see if it ripens up red.

If it stays pink then no, it isn't OTV. And the foliage is PL,not RL/

Thebest way to tell if a ripe fruit is red or pink is to determine what the epidermis color is.

Take a piece of the thin epidermis of the one you want to know about and then also from a known red and a known pink.

Hold them up to the light. If clear, the fruit is pink. If yellow the fruit is red.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn

The statement I made was that there were significant problems with either flavor or horticultural habit.

Brandywine X Stupice gives a plant that rambles. I was unable to find a line that combines both early fruiting with good flavor with moderate plant size.

Brandywine X Glacier, Brandywine X Kotlas, and Brandywine X Outdoor Girl gave variations of the same problems I saw with Stupice crosses. There were lots of fluted, knobby, oddball shapes and sizes to the fruit.

Brandywine X Polish turned out to be an exceptionally good tomato. I saved a line with flavor better than either parent, excellent production, and plant habit better than Brandywine.

The reason I suggest some alternative crosses is because I put the time and effort into finding out what genetics have the potential to improve on the tomatoes we have. The ft gene controls fruiting temperature. Adding it to Brandywine would allow fruit set down to 40 degrees F. It is in LA2006 (Earlinorth).

Eva Purple Ball has 2 complex traits, one of which results in abundant flowering and fruit set, the other causes the core to be small and not excessively attached to the plant. I value these two traits quite a bit because they improve production and fruit quality. Both of these would be outstanding additions to a Brandywine flavored tomato.

Jagodka is a standout from my garden this year. It is a small 1 to 2 inch diameter red fruited determinate plant. Fruit set is abundant, flavor is good to very good, and maturity is 45 to 50 days from transplant. It beat Stupice and Kimberly by nearly 2 weeks. What is extremely unusual for this variety is that it matures 100% of fruit set in about 70 days. From flower to ripe fruit is between 6 and 7 weeks. This makes it an excellent choice for very short season zone 3/4 areas.

Brandywine X Tastiheart would be to move Brandywine flavor over into a heart shaped tomato. Tastiheart is just a good candidate because it is very close to start with. Kosovo would be another good choice for a cross with Brandywine to develop a heart shaped tomato with Brandywine flavor.

Carolyn - Thanks for your suggestions about OTV. I still have a couple left on the vine, and promise to leave them longer to ripen. The picture shows the tomato sauce I made this week. The OTV is in the middle of the basket just to the left of Aunt Gertie's Gold.

Also good suggestions about planting more of old seed. I do keep seed for several years, and also trade seed. For that reason I always plant at least 6 seed and sometimes as many as 12 to get 1 or 2 plants that I want to keep. The dilemma comes after I pick out my own, give some away, and sell some at the framer's market, I still have some to throw away, which breaks my heart.

John A

For some reason, the picture wouldn't fit in my previous post.

This post was edited by john11840 on Fri, Sep 20, 13 at 14:58

Carolyn, thank you for advice. Yep, no original seeds left although envelopes are still there LOL. I am pretty decent at growing even old seeds and have done varied tricks to help. My friend will be looking for old records of 2005 and 2006 how she did her determinations. She has plenty of seeds from previous years and seeds returned to her from people who grew some of her seedlings. Here is what I got by now
http://n54th.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/tomato-surprise/ 2007 year
so it looks like the one that I have returned more and more to remind original Brandywine. I am curious now but the plan is to get few seeds from different choices from past years and grow it together. If I am lucky I get few more people growing it out and we will compare results- fun project for adults.
http://n54th.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/summertime-gnaws/2008 year
and here is mine, which supps came from XJ line. BxS cross is on the R of my pic and it is pink.

Lindalana, if you like the flavor and characteristics of the plant that you grew, and that you show above, you MUST save seeds from it. Make them available to others to grow out, if you aren't interested yourself, but, as stated above, most of the Brandywine X Stupice didn't work out really well, so something that does have good characteristics is always desirable.

I also agree with Fusion that I have grown the Brandy X Polish and really liked some of the fruit. They looked a lot like what you show and were very sweet.

Thank you for advice! It is fascinating stuff, I would like to learn more...

here is where I am getting confused though. Seeds were started 2005, at some point at least 2 different strains were noted, am not sure how to repost better those links in previous post but 2007 and 2008 blog show different tomatoes. However my tomatoes seems to be different which means that strain was not stable, correct? So where do I find info on how to stabilize what I have and since there are more seeds from previous years, theoretically we have some seeds that still might be stable with 2 previous variations? How many seeds do I need to grow then and what to look for? Also should I obtain RL Brandywine seeds just to compare with what I have? If there is no significant difference noted then it means that most of Stupice characteristics were bred out and while I might not have original Brandywine the genes of current are not that different?

Complicated.

At this point I wouldn't say that what you have is not stable, I'd suggest that along the way there's been some cross pollination. Not that any Stupice was bred out, no, but that what you have now, IMO is not worth working with.

If you want I can look and see what I have left of some of those crosses, and if I have some seeds left, they would be the same as what you started with since you said you received original 2004 seeds from my seed offer from someone, and you've only grown them out for one year.

I can't explain everything you've posted, but I do know that when growing out those F2 seeds what I and some others got, and getting a Brandywine sized and colored fruit IMO is just not possible in a genetic sense from F2 seeds

Especially since I think you said you had just one plant, but I didn't take the time to go back to look at all your posts to confirm that.

So your call right now.

Carolyn

Your tomatoes are probably not stable. However, they might, or might not be getting close to being stable, depending on how many generations back to the original directed cross (or accidental cross pollination if that occurred).

Most of the time, to stabilize it, you save seeds. You should take seeds from at least 2 or 3 tomatoes on the same plant. Seeds from DIFFERENT plants should be saved separately, at this point. This helps provide protection against accidental cross pollination, which occurs perhaps about 4 or 5% of the time to any particular tomato, if it is grown around other tomatoes.. By having sees from at least 2 or 3 tomatoes on any one plant, you can expect that at least SOME of those seeds will be continuations of the previous cross, without being contaminated by an accidental cross.

Grow out the seeds you save. It is best to grow as many different seeds as you can, from that batch. Then select the tomato plants you like best, and save seeds from them, and do it again the next year.

Once you get a cross, the genetic characteristics continue to "re-assort" for at least 5 or 6 generations. If, at each generation, you choose the seeds from the plants you like, then at 5 generations, you should have ALL of the seeds at approximately 31/32nds genetically identical and at 6 generations you reach 63/64ths genetically identical. Each successive generation you "grow out" and save, should cut the variability in HALF from the previous generation. Eventually, assuming no additional cross pollination, you should have ALL the seeds essentially genetically identical. This is what people mean when they say it is stable, and most people consider it to happen after 5 or 6 generations, but, of course, most stable varieties are many many generations since their last cross.

If you can't grow them all out, or don't have the interest, you can offer seeds to other people, perhaps posting pictures on line and giving what information you have. Explain to them that they will be working with tomatoes that probably aren't stable yet, so they may get new or weird characteristics such as color shifts, size variation, flavor variation, etc. Also, make sure to give them your best estimate of how many generations it has been since the original cross, so they can know how far to go before they reach stability. The advantage of this is that there ARE people who might be willing to take a chance on growing and stabilizing at new variety that looks like it has potential. The disadvantage is that you then lose control of at least THAT strain, since THEY will be making the choices.

Fortunately, growing out and stabilizing tomatoes can be fun. Unfortunately, it either takes time, which is extended with fewer plants, or it takes less time (though still years), but requires a lot more plants. I grow out between 120 and 180 plants every year. At least 95% of the plants that I grow are from crosses that I am working with. I have been working on some of those crosses for 10 to 15 years now (because I haven't grown them all, every year, and sometimes you reach a dead end, and have to go back to a previously saved batch, and start again). BUT, keep in mind that you don't HAVE to grow out lots of tomatoes. MOST of the Heirloom tomatoes we grow were probably created BY ACCIDENT, from accidental crosses in home gardens and very small farms, over the years, by people just growing a few tomatoes and then saving the seeds, generation after generation, from whatever plant or plants they liked best.

I can't explain everything you've posted, but I do know that when growing out those F2 seeds what I and some others got, and getting a Brandywine sized and colored fruit IMO is just not possible in a genetic sense from F2 seeds

&&&&&

And why did I say that?

There are alternative versions of a single trait, they are called alleles. We know that RL is dominant ot PL, to give one example.

And small fruit size is dominant to large fruit size.

So with all five F1 hybrids that Stanley sent me, the fruits of all five were very much smaller than the one parent Brandywine.

And putting out plants from those F2 seeds I offered back in 2004, has not given enough time for genetic segregation to allow for anything large, such as a large pink, to show itself.

Even working with any of those F2 seeds of any of the five crosses, and making single selections I think it's not probable that anything large would appear.

Unless. as I said above, a mutation or cross pollination had occured,

But you said several times that you were sent the EXACT same original seeds that I distributed in 2004. If they had gone thru someone else's hands before being sent to you there could have been a X pollination that way, or if you had grown them out in the summer of 2012 and saved seeds, a X pollination could have occured then.

Just some suggestions. ( smile)

Carolyn

"We know that RL is dominant ot PL, to give one example."

It is a bit more complicated and clearly NOT a case of true dominance. When a PL plant is pollinated from an RL plant, the resulting seed produce plants that have leaves in between RL and PL. I get a handful of seedlings every year that show this leaf morphology. In the F2, these segregate into 1 RL, 1 PL, and 2 in between for leaf shape.

Yes Darrel, I'm fully aware of homozygous dominant, heterozygous, and homozygous recessive and you know that since you've seen me post it many times.

But I didn't want to put up something likes this, but will do it now:

Let P be dominant,and; let p be recessive as regards leaf form

PP is homozygous dominant, RL

Pp is heterozygous and RL

pp is homozygous recessive and PL

And no, I'm not going to do the square to see the results you posted above.

What I was trying to do was to keep things as simple as I could without going into too much detail.

Carolyn

Carolyn, all the good questions, I know I did not have original seed but am not sure how far it is removed. Hopefully this pic can be posted it shows two strains that resulted from your original seed which seemingly were stable and I grown seedling from JX bottom pic. I think you are correct and what I got is cross of the cross with something else now.
I would love to have seeds if you have any left from your growing it out.
Fcivish thank you much for explanations!

And all this time you had said that you did have original seeds from 2004, or I somehow misinterpreted what you said, twice so I couldn 't figure out why you were getting what you showed and described.

it makes much more sense to me now that indeed whatever seeds you did get had been crossed.

Yes, I can look to see what seeds of those crosses I might have, but here's theproblem. I had asked you twice what your germination rate was after you said you had original seeds from 2004, but you never answered.

What was the age of seeds you used to show us what you got. Again,l the problem is that trying to germinate seeds that are 10 years old can certainly be done, but it isn't easy to do.

You can double sow the seeds if I have enough and there are other ways of waking up older seeds as well.But nothing is for sure.

If it still is of interest to you please let me know in this thread, and we'll go from there.

Carolyn

Carolyn, sorry if I was not clear, yes, it is was my buddy that got original seeds going so I have no idea what her original germination rate was or how it started and she is too busy to dig into her old records now. Yes, I would like the seeds to try and if you have some better suggestions on germination I would be happy to try. Generally I have germinated most tomato seeds by soaking at room temp for few hours and then on coffee filter inside of the plastic baggy on the warm floor/my bathroom luxury tile/. With most seeds I have had no issues and get near 100% germination in a couple of days. I have used sowing under snow, and soaking with beer or aloe and honey in the past for old seeds with variable success. I have used giberellic acid with peppers but results were not impressive, plants grew but yield was miserable.

I don't know if you real name is Linda or Alana, I'm the real Carolyn, but whatever, why don't you e-mail me at Cmale@aol.com so we have a way of corresponding and then go from there.

BTW, that e-mail address is for Linda/Alana only. ( smile)

Carolyn

Carolyn,
email sent on Wed. Thank you much!
Ellen

Ellen, I did get your e-mail and will et back to ou when can.

Right now I have several people to get back to, so am behind on e-mails. Then theree's other stuff to deal with here at home like water spouting all over the place in the basement, and with my walker I can't get down there, so I'm glad the Orkin man saw it when he was down there placing mouse traps( smile)

That's just one situation of many that's happening and it makes life interesting.LOL

Thanks in advance for understanding,

Carolyn