I've dehybridized Ramapo F1 to an open pollinated version as well as a natural cross that led to the variety OTV Brandywine.

But the variety Micro-Tom that you mentioned above is open pollinated as bred by Dr. Scott in FL, so needs no dehybridization.

Carolyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Micro-Tom

I am now at F8 with my Brandy Boys. They still seem to be true to F1's. Shall I call that stabilized?
John A

John, I don't quite know what to say about that b'c there are quite a few folks who have tried to stabilize it to the OP, growing out many plants from saved seed at each generation and I can't think of anyone who has stabilized it yet.

When all seeds sowed from the last selection give rise to identical plants and fruits, it's home free with the OP status. But if yours is identical to the F1 in all ways what are you going to call it? ( smile)

The problem has been PL vs RL and some have even getten some red fruited plants, which one wouldn't suspect could happen, but whatever. LOL

And great if you have made single plant selections and planted out lots of plants at each generation and have gotten the same out to the F8.

Carolyn

Everywhere I look claims micro toms are a hybrid. I am a little bit confused on hybrids. Are some not crossed with anything but have had stuff bred into them and are labeled hybrids? But they are OP at the same time?

Everywhere I look claims micro toms are a hybrid. I am a little bit confused on hybrids. Are some not crossed with anything but have had stuff bred into them and are labeled hybrids? But they are OP at the same time?

*****

First, I don't know where you're looking where you see Micro-Tom is a hybrid, b'c it isn't. Go via Google to Tomato Growers Supply and click where it says small fruited. At TGS every single variety that is a hybrid is noted so after the name of the variety. Micro=Tom has no such designation.

Hybrid variety can be a commercial one where there are two breeding lines and in each line, all are OP's, genes are introduced for this and that. THe last two selections in those two breeding lines are then crossed to form the F1 hybrid. Seeds from hybrids do not come true.

The earliest hybruds such as Big Biy, Better Boy and Ramapo, had only two parents and selections were made from those initial hybrids to get the varieties I jsut noted. Later hybrids, as I said above, have two breeding lines and up to 4 genetic inputs in each line so the final hybrid can have up to 8 genetic inputs.

There can also be a natural cross pollination in a garden and that's another way that a hybrid, crossing of two OP's, can occur. Almost every OP variety we know, in terms of both heirloom and commercial OP's resulted from a deliberate cross or an accidental one.

Seeds saved from an OP come true as long as there hasn't been any mutations or cross pollinations.

So a hybrid and an OP variety are opposites of each other and are not the same in terms of genetic input nor in terms of seed saving and having the seeds come true.

Carolyn

John a has an OP Brandy Boy....and should release it to us!

I have a couple other questions -

Is there such thing as an heirloom hybrid?

So most of these OP varieties we have today all started as crosses/hybrids? Was/is there any natural occurring tomato in the wild that has never been crossed? What is the oldest tomato?

Thanks Carolyn. What sample size do I need to declare victory? Do I need to isolate the blossoms? John A

Is there such thing as an heirloom hybrid?

So most of these OP varieties we have today all started as crosses/hybrids? Was/is there any natural occurring tomato in the wild that has never been crossed? What is the oldest tomato?

*****

Depending on which definition of an heirloom one is using, and there are several with no consensus, yes, there could be heirloom hybrids.

If one uses the date of about 1940 when hybrids first started being offered to the public and pre about 1940 that was not true, then no, IMO there would be no heirloom hybrids.

But if one used another definition that says an heirloom is one that's been around for 50 years, then yes, there could be heirloom hybrid varieties.

The other issue is that the initial understanding of an heirloom was one that was passed down within a family for generations, but there are also OP heirlooms that were bred and released commercially, such as the Ponderosa's and so many more.

Some think that if a deliberate cross has one family heirloom the resulting dehybridization of that to an OP state should be called an heirloom. I don't.

And if there's a natural cross and only the female parent is known and it's a known heirloom some think that the result of dehybridization should also be called an heirloom. I don't.

There are many manty threads here at GW that you might want to look at with a search and search for titles such as definition of an heirloom and similar.

Yes,most of the heirlooms we know today started out as either natural or deliberate crosses, I've seen a percentage suggested of around about 90%, the other 10% coming from mutations of existing varieties.

Your almost last question I can't answer and I don't think anyone can, that is, are there any so called species of tomatoes in the wild that have never crossed. Tomatoes originated in the high plateaus of Chile and Peru and to date there are about 14 or so different species Ided, but only three of them have fruits that are edible.

I do know that the variety that was named Sara's Galapagos is a natural cross between a currant variety and another wild variety on a certain island in the Galapagos. I know that b'c I was sent fruits of those and had asked the person to bring me back S. cheesmanii, the salt tolerant one, and that's not red fruited as this one was. So I e-mailed Dr. Chatelet at the Rick Center, which is THE place for wild species ( no, not a source of seeds to the public) and knowing the island it came from he was able to tell me that it was probably and interspecies cross and also directed me to an academic paper by some British scientists who had found the same from other islands.

The oldest tomato? No one knows how many thousands of years tomatoes were growing in South America, so no answer to that question.

Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn. What sample size do I need to declare victory? Do I need to isolate the blossoms? John A

****

John, how many plants did you put out at each generation? If just a couple you may have missed the genetic segregation that usually occurs when dehybridizing a hybrid, as I mentioned above. Yes, there are those who calim that some hybrids are OP's in disguise but that came from a book, Carol Deppe's, that was written many years ago and I'm not so sure it's true today.

I'm not sure what you mean by sample size unless you're reffering to, again, the number of plants you put out from saved seeds at each generation.

If you haven't been bagging blossoms up to now I'm not so sure it matters at this point. For the F8 growout, for instance, how many plants did you put out to observe?

Does that help?

Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn for all the information.

Thanks Carolyn. My Brandy Boys will never be considered dehybridized because I only plant a few each year. That won't deter me from continuing the experiment because it's interesting.
Concerning the definition of heirloom - do you consider Rutgers an heirloom? John A

Yes John, I do consider the original Rutgers released first in 1928 to be a commercial heirloom b'c it pre-dates about 1940. And since the 1933 version is just an improvment on the 1928 one, then that one as well. Dates for all the others are not easy to find but I could if I were to spend time with my SSE YEarbooks, which I'm not going to do. LOL Maybe if you click on the linksat Tania's page for some of the later versions you can find the dates.

There are various Rutgers strains out there and Tania has included almost all of them on her page of Rutgers and the history and seed sources are there as well.

Carolyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Rutgers and friends

You can find a good bit of info at ncsu. For example:

Rutgers 8828 - Breeder: Corneli Seed Co., St. Louis. Parentage: selected out of Rutgers. Characteristics: earlier, larger fruit and more productive than Rutgers. Resistance: tolerant of fusarium wilt. Adaptation: full season tomato areas. Corneli Catalog no. 15. 1951.

http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wehner/vegcult/vgclintro.html

DarJones