According to David Gentilcore, "St. Louis" was an American variety, same as Ponderosa, mentioned in the original source:

La coltivazione industriale del pomodoro, Casale Monferrato, Fratelli Ottavi, (1913)

by Ferruccio Zago, a leading agronomist and author in Italy at the time writing about the cutting edges of technology and agricultural practices regarding the development of prodcessing tomatoes, active around 1900-1935.

It seems from that the hybrid (result of the cross) variety's name was "Ingegnoli". "Ingegnoli Gigante Liscio" today seems to be a tomato that has been selected and possibly drifted by crossing etc.,plausibly based on the original mentioned in 1913.

If you can't find any references to that variety name except everyone picking up and running with "a cross between Ponderosa and St. Louis", consider researching other possibilities, like the "St. Louis Seed Company", and see what they were offering in the way of pulpy, good peelers or appropriate sizes 1900-1920.

Good Luck
PC

Here is a link that might be useful: Processing Tomato Cultivation ...F. Zago

ok,thank-you

Ok,After all my research in the past couple of weeks,and going thru all the old catalogs(BHL) of that era,Focasing on st.louis seed companys,There is no such thing as a tomato variety called Saint(St.)Louis.But,after viewing all the old catalogs,im convienced the so called st. Louis tomato they used to cross with ponderosa is either Acme,Beauty,Buckeye State,Favorite,Paragon,The Stone,Trophy,or Matchless.I`m leaning towards Acme,Buckeye State,Favorite and Matchless because of their color discriptions.The acme and buckeye state are extinct,The sites that claim to have the original are wrong,The originals had a purplelish color to them,which theirs doesn't !! The ponderosa has very few seeds,so,the so called st.louis had to be seedy,because the Ingegnoli Gigante Liscio has lots of seeds and has a very dark purpleish cardinal red color.I got in touch with the company that made the Ingegnoli Gigante Liscio originally,And they don't even know the company they got the seeds from for the st.louis.Even the ponderosa tomato is no longer true to the original back in early 1900`s.I have seeds for the Ingegnoli Gigante Liscio from all the sources out there,Including the original company that bread it,Going to grow them out every year.Select tomatoes that don't look like ponderosa,and maybe some day have me a St. Louis tomato!!!!!!!!!!!

This post was edited by pappabell on Tue, Nov 25, 14 at 12:22

That is a great project you're working on and it sounds like you are on a long but fun path. Mulling this over, here's my 2 Indian Head Cents for your tomato from the beginning of the last century:

St. Louis Seed Company was originally dba Pure & Sure Seeds and Plant Seed Company. In 1904, it could be related that the World;s Fair was held in St. Louis and that was a huge boost to exposure for this seed company. One scenario is that it promoted discussion of seeds with Italian companies and ended up getting a seed sent and crossed in Italy. The Fair was in 1904 and Zago published in 1913 that the cross had been made. The 1902 catalog from St. Louis online shows Stone as the variety for canning that St. Louis really promoted.

However the Stone was an old Livingstone (hence, Stone) variety St. Louis offered improved varieties at the time and there is also a full compendium of their catalogs available offline. I would look for an improvement on the Stone made by St. Louis in that time period between 1903 and about 1908. No such improvement is in the 1902 catalog.

I would also get a look at the original Zago book (1913) to verify the wording. But to me it seems most likely that the wording does not describe the Ingegnoli Gigante Liscio, but rather what in 1913 was simply the "Ingegnoli" processing tomato at that time.... i.e., Ingegnoli is a cross of Ponderosa and St. Louis ... in this case St. Louis sounding like a new improvement St. Louis Seed Company had introduced, All subsequent references and dating to ca. 1920 sound bogus or just later as typical rumor that one person gets something half right, and everyone else repeats it enough that it just becomes an historical innaccuracy with a defective basis.

Ponderosa was probably the most the standard tomato of the time so the variety easily could have been like someone saying Brandywine today, like "Company A processor" is a cross between Brandywine and "Company B processor". What Company A did under this hypothesis, was probably improve the Ingegnoli in various ways later and one of those presentations is Ingegnoli Gigante Liscio.Note, Stone was appreciated at the time as exceedingly smooth. Liscio means "smooth" in Italian. If I were to guess, the St Louis that went into Ingegnoli was probably an improvement on Stone, Perfection or Honor Bright, the ones being promoted by St. Louis at the time. Now, to get a look at the catalog and see if there are any improvements 1903-1908 on thiose varieties by Pure & Sure Plant Seed Company, which became commonly called St. Louis Seed Company by 1913 ;-).

I love your project as it illustrates how "Bob's Plain Tomato" and "Jane's Improved Tomato" from Anywhere USA gets taken to Italy and crossed and then becomes this wonderful exotic name that people suddenly think is something exotic and heirloom Italiano LOL. It's the typical BS we see with 99% of the new variety names...ok that's my opinion. But I'll take a succulent Marglobe tomato anyday!

PC

Stone tomato was improved at that time,It was called The Stone instead of just plain old Stone.The description in the 1902 catalog from th st. Louis seed company made me think that It could very well have been the stone tomato that was used in the cross.But the color of fruit didn't match.The original breeders sent me this email;Tomato Gigante liscio was created in 1902 from a crossing between Tomato Ponderosa and St. Louis. At first it was named Tomato Ingegnoli, then Tomato Ingegnoli gigante liscio. Tomato St. Louis comes from USA but we don't know the company name.
Here attached we send a page from our catalogue 1903 where we introduce it as a new variety. In the descriotion it's stated that it was obtained from the selection of seeds of only 1 fruit with huge sizes , but it wasn't true because it was one of the first Hybrid Tomato.

No. 261 ��" TOMATO INGEGNOLI 1902 NEWS.

Poclii years ago not riscontrammo in a uostra culture. a tomato

exem-

Peerless to fruit again gravely, cli o:.1c.re -du-alive. of polite, strong, equipped with insomnia all quality queile clie richieee a

Looking forward to this event°, and certain die from it could create what
What wonderful with cli vcra passions, sosteuendo a job not indifferent, we tried a selection active and continnata that Crown with dignity our fiche giving us a purely prodigious, the tomato we allowed

to us, being sure not to come to this mane ails conventional modesty. II Tomato Ingegnoli iisponde all needs: for fruit, psi regolaria co-lore, solidith. of the pulp, productivity, resistance. Fahe inalattie. The. vi-6 gorose plant, high, foglianie load-green, fruits ierfetta, oval shaped, again gravely, that even raggituigono en weight ax) grams, boccia. Nadia bright-red, without ribs, it cracks, carriosn, pollee full internal code with very few seeds-early Afaturanza at fruit end and geli.

His (peak the Tilden () specialmeute utilizzalfile for the sauce because macho flesh peeled You always keeps in flavor and solid doles red-alive.

This post was edited by pappabell on Wed, Nov 26, 14 at 18:26

:-) Is that what the Italians sent to you using Google Translate or do you have the original text? Wonder what they are saying about hybrid ...very interesting to better understand. I used to have an Italian friend (actually a sales manager for one of the big European seed companies) who wrote to me the same way so this brings back good memories. Please post the original if you have it, which would be so great to study and a piece of exciting history you can share.

Other varieties of Stone were in development at that time since it was one of the primary smooth skinned processing tomatoes in the US at the time. I definitely wouldn't discount it because the tomato breeding business has always been extremely complicated. Livingston, while breeding Stone, probably grew over 6000 plants to get there and what was publically released "breeding true" compared to countless variations available to breeders and seed companies is no less complicated than looking at the variation in many heirlooms today. By the same token, Livingston had other smooth ones even earlier, but the was the babe for processing tomato.

For example, at that time there were even the varieties "Dwarf Stone" and "New Stone". I still think the most likely scenario is that the Italians just got the parent from St. Louis Seed Co. and called it StL. St. Louis had a reputation for getting interesting stuff out of the ordinary.

But another possible scenario just to keep up the mystery. There was a good processor tomato variety circulating at the time named World's Fair which was handled by the Italian produce wholesalers contingent back East. I'm betting that variety could have been called St. Louis too. The timing is perfect and tomatoes as all farming innovations were quite important to St. Louis World's Fair (1904). I think the big fight of whether or not real hot dog are permitted to have ketchup started at the Fair. It is claimed that hamburgers on buns were started there... as well as special fitted hot dog rolls being invented there (no opinion from me) ... The World's Fair tomato could also be referring to Chicago, which had the prior big World's Fair and a riff with St. Louis, but more likely it would have been named "Exposition" then. St. Louis was a big name around the world in the lead up to its Fair, commemorating the centenial of the doubling of the size of the USA, and the exploration of the riches of flora and fauna of the old frontier... and it is easy to imagine how it caught the imagination of the Italians to hunt for exotic American smooth breeding stock, since they were getting away from the ruffled ones in Italy as processing took off, both there and in the US near the big ports (NY, Phila, Baltimore).

Anyway, just ramblings to put out there to share in some of the enthusiasm for old American varieties with great names! Like Globe & Stone, all derived originally from Livingstone, the World's greatest modern tomato breeder who gave us that old fashioned tomato flavor.

If you tried to post an image and it didn't work (there's a big space in your message), please try again or just PM and I'll help.

great Stuff ... American breeding at it's finest ;-)

PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Wed, Nov 26, 14 at 20:29

Heres the original,Just didn't think most people here in the states could read it.The translation is terrible,I agree!!

Wish I could read and speak Italian,There could be some clues in this 1903 Catalog page that could shed some light into this tomato mystery that the translation doesn't reveal.

Italian and you're in a tomato place ;-)

I'd be happy to translate it for you and found it historically very interesting ...thank you for this great piece of history...., there are no smoking gun clues that we might hope for. It sounds much more like a sport was found in the field and no one really cared where it came from or maybe just didn't want to tell others what they did. IMO, it sounds like they just crossed two common US varieties and got a good selection and put the Ingegnoli Brothers name on it without further ado. I don't believe the catalog actually; as catalogs usually a full of it, it is probably an F2 that was subsequently selected till it bred true at a later date, but that's my speculation at risk of getting thrown off the bridge with concrete boots and a broken face.

I'll do it one paragraph at a time since I'm on vacation this weekend and even though I follow it, to get the nuances near perfect takes work. Probably many can read it better at first glance, but let me start...

================================

Ingegnoli Tomato - New for 1902

Some years ago we had found in our tomato fields a specimen of very large fruit, of a bright red color, firm fleshed, endowed in short, with all of those traits demanded of an ideal tomato.

Happy with this event, and sure we could create a marvelous thing from that specimen, with true passion, we took a task that wasn't easy, and made selections that continued to successfully fulfill our work and reward us with a perfectly great tomato, that we could call our own, and were sure that we would not make a mistake by putting our name on it. The Ingegnoli tomato is the answer to all the demands: for the uniformity of the fruit, in the color, meatiness of the flesh, productivity, or resistance to disease. The plant is vigorous, tall, has heavy green foliage, and perfectly formed fruits, oval, very large, that can even reach a weight of 500 grams (18 ounces), smooth brilliant red skin with no ribbing, nor cracks, meaty flesh, and a full, firm interior with very few seeds. It is an early tomato that fruits right up to frost.

These characteristics make it especially good for sauce, because when the flesh is peeled it always keeps a sweet flavor and deep red color.

Now that many are canning whole tomatoes for the winter, the Ingegnoli variety is the best one that lends itself to this and here's how it's done:

The whole fruits from the flower stem are put in a container (ed. note, tin was available at that time though subject to corrosion made it smart to use within 6-8 months or glass jar like now) with brine (water saturated with table salt); then to prevent contact with air you pour over them a layer of quality olive oil, about 1-2 cm thick that floats on top of the brine (3/8 - 3/4 inch). Tomatoes preserved this way won't lose much of their flavor, but before you use them, rinse them in fresh water or else it will make the food too salty.

To the farmer, we especially recommend you dedicate yourself to growing tomatoes, because it is a very profitable farming if done logically and by choosing an early variety or productive one, like the Ingegnoli tomato. Here are some numbers to convince our readers:

Each hectare can have ten thousand plants. Each plant yields an average of 2 to 3 kilograms of tomatoes, which if sold give from 10 to 15 cents per kilogram. This provides a gross income per hectare as follows:

Minimum L.2000 ... Maximum L.4500 ... Average L.3250.

(Ed. These figures correspond to the following in acres, dollars and pounds:

4.5 to 6.5 pounds per plant;
US cents, 0.9 to 1.3 cents per pound sold price;
Gross income per acre:
Minimum $157 ... Maximum $352 ... Average $255.

)

Considering the debts, that the goal should be after expenses to keep an average net profit per hectare of L.1625 ! (Ed. $127/acre)

Cost of a bag of seeds of the INGEGNOLI TOMATO Cent . 50. (Ed. US, 10 cents)

======================================= Ciao!

PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Sun, Nov 30, 14 at 19:57

Thank-you PC.....I agree that it was not stabalized before release.And since todays tomatoes of this variety are seedy,its been crossed many times since then,But not surprizing after 100 years.But im still going to grow them all out and see what I come up with.Some of the original genes has still got to be in the tomato.Especially the seeds im getting from the original company,and the seeds from the seed bank which are from the original company in 1992.

This post was edited by pappabell on Sun, Nov 30, 14 at 7:27

pappabell, good luck with your great project and thanks again for posting all this! Above is my attempt at the complete translation of the long original release description from your page of the old Ingegnoli catalog you posted ;-)

Ciao but I hope to learn how it goes!
PC