O.K., I've uploaded the drawing of the fruits. It's really detailed--someone put a lot of effort into it. There's a water stain in the middle, but it doesn't really mess up the appearance--is it badly damaging to any value? This piece just reminded me of the bounty of the Willamette Valley (although we don't have peaches -- maybe it's from CA?)...

Redware?? What's redware? I have a friend who used to pot who made pottery out of red clay.
Oh! You mean OLD redware?? How old??
I know, playing the Devil's Advocate...
Both pots are redware....but the question is how old....and where made.
The crimped bowl is not typical of old redware with that impressed design....but the pot/crock....while not typically early 19th century in shape....I think is the better, older and more traditional piece....meaning I like ti better.
Value? Who knows!!
Linda C

Hey Linda,

I know, redware/terracotta/mud--whatever :) BUT, I do recall (in fact I have some) redware plates with crimped edges, and found that it was definitely a hallmark of one kind of redware decoration. The embossing, I can't find.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1382123}}

And what do you think of my little still life avec fruits? :) (it's not so little, actually)

Strange.....charming...but odd! LOL! You say drawing? could it be a lithograph? Water color? But I lean to lithograph. Have you looked at it with a glass? Little dots or brush strokes?
I think I see non circular saw marks on the back board....that so?
BUT I don't see any signs of foxing from the wood backing....not sure why not. Any signature?
Looks to me to be a litho of the later Currier and Ives Era.
As for the crimped bowl....my friend Kay potted cripmed bowls. It's the black trim, the incised decoration, and the size of the crimping that makes me think it's not "old"....and by "old" I mean pre 1930.
Nice stuff!!
Linda C

Definitely not a lithograph, linda...when I look with my reading glasses I see faint pencil lines where, say, the leaves are drawn, and then a coat of paint -- maybe wetted colored pencils? making the images. There's one place where it's flaked off a bit, in the middle of a green leaf in the top center. There's also some erasure of the top center of the vine.

The piece of wood shows saw marks on the back. I can't tell if it's plywood or not but those saw lines are definitely there. Does that tell you anything?

What did folks use back then? I don't see oil paint brush strokes, either. Watercolor pencils? Did they exist back then?

Your bowl looks an awfully lot like that Mexico pottery which was so very popular in the say 50s-60s in Texas, maybe other places. Most of that was oblong casserole dishes though. It was all this color with hand painted designs. Your design is one which is odd as usually they had flowers, etc. I do seem to recall some ladies having round bowls.

This stuff could be bought by the dozens in Mexico and little import shops in South Texas. I believe later people were told not to cook in it as there was possibly lead in the mix, and it might leach out--I still love the look of the stuff though. Maybe there was only lead in the paint. I think they also made bean pots and bigger trays.

It's the same color as the Mexican Saltillo (sp) floor tiles which are still popular. I assume it was made in the same area.

Marg--thanks very much--that helps a lot and definitely could be what it is. Sloppy painters those guys were :)

Hm, though, do you mean things that look like these?

Here is a link that might be useful: not feelin' it...

I also think the bowl could be Mexican....but earluier than the bowls in the picture and from a different area.
Back to the picture.....if that were mine, I would be prying out those nails and taking it apart to see what was what.....
But then I was always one to take things apart to see what made them run.
The picture was obviously made for the frame, or the frame for the picture.....
If the picture was made for the frame.....what was in that frame before?.....and if the frame was made for the picture, wherew as that picture supposed to go?
I think I see straight line saw marks on the back board....can't be sure....but that is an indication of age.
At any rate, you need to either get that wood off the bacl and replace it with foam core....or put a piece of acid free, archival mat board between the wood and the picture....before that picture gets browned and stained.
From what you have said it's probably a water color.
Linda C

Hm, Linda--I was afraid to take the picture out, for fear we'd never be able to get it back in nice and tight...but you think I should? I love to take things apart, but this one I was concerned about. Do I dare try?

Should I also clean the frame? There's a *lot* of grime on it...

I just found something called a "Victorian theorem" which is a lot of various kinds of fruit complete with the vines and tendrils of vines (from grapes)...it looks a *lot* like this piece...

what does 'theorem' refer to? That's a completely new word to me in this context.

no, probably can't be a theorem, because these don't look like stencils...they *may* be, but they sure don't look like it, from the shading and detail...

A theorem is a plan...a proposition as in Pythagorean theorem.
and by extrapolation also a "planned picture"...i.e. with stemcils....or a formula, as in copied picture.....and it may be that.
Of course take it out....carefully. Wash the glass, clean up the frame, replace the backing with foam core and put it all together using glazier's points.
Then cut a piece of brown wrapping paper to be bigger than the frame, brush some dilute Elmer's glue on the frame back....smooth on the brown paper ( as they do in a framing shop) wipe the paper with a damp sponge causing the paper to shrink, let it dry and trim off the excess paper with an exacto knife.
Easy as pie....
Linda C

I've washed the glass already--cleaned off many years of smoking, I believe...

I'll get the foamcore and the glazier's points today or tomorrow.

So it won't hurt any possible value if it's out of its original setup? I realize that the huge water stain in the middle probably cuts any value by a LOT, but still...

I grew up along the Texas/Mexican border and I tend to agree with Linda C (up to a point). I've never seen the better earthenware casseroles & such executed that crudely BUT, my mother and later myself did own bean pots that were crudely made and looked a lot like your fluted bowls. All of these did go out of favor for everyday use when they discovered the high lead content. Those pots did make some very good beans. And, not deady yet.

Hi pris--thanks--you know, I just can't find anything done *that* sloppily!

I also found a really beautiful old covered pot today in the style folks ar etalking about here, clearly labeled "Mexico" -- some of the decoration looked positively 30s. It was so nice but I remembered the warning about not cooking on it because of the lead -- underside had clear scorch marks from longtime use...

well, I took out the many many tiny framing nails (two layers) behind the Theorem (that's what I'm calling it) tonight, and NO signature! :( It's got a slice of wood, single piece, and beneath that a layer of corrugated cardboard. I'll take it to the frame shop tomorrow and have them replace the cardboard with acidfree foamcore, and remount it all as you say, linda...my guy there said they'd do it, foamcore included,, for $10.

I'll put pics of up of the somewhat hilarious frame and glass cutting -- and what do you all think of the idea of cleaning the grime off the frame? That should be o.k., yes? What would you use to do it? It really looks much nicer clean.

Well, never mind -- I just read that it's o.k. to clean off gilt frames with rubbing alcohol and cotton balls. I've done two cotton pads worth so far and WOW what a difference! :) Gotten about 6 linear" done LOL but it's beautiful and bright.

Can't wait for pics of the project underway and the finished picture with it's clean frame.
that "water stain" was almost certainly from the corrugated cardboard in the backing.
Linda C

The water stain was on part of the cardboard, too - I think it got onto the picture first and soaked through *part* of the cardboard, but not all the way through to the other side. It was some kind of liquid, though.

The piece is really so amazing when I look at it without the glass. Such work, and yet because of the big spill in the middle, will not have a lot of "value", I imagine.

The alcohol is a slow process, but it's working. I'm a *bit* concerned about it, since I've read on other sites that it can dry the paint up, but still keeping on. After about another half hour I have about 6 more inches done LOL I don't know what I would have done if it were more carved. As it is, I'm avoiding cleaning around the red painted parts...

That print would look soooooooooo good in my kitchen.................don't bother cleaning it - just send it on to me!!!!!!!!

cute :) except it's not a print!

I got a reply from a nearby 19th c. art/antiques dealer to whom I had sent a photo; she liked it (but said 'it's too bad about the stain'...yeah that's for sure!) and said that the frame looks like it's from the 1920s, and the picture may be that era or earlier. She also very kindly referred me to a local couple who deal in the era of this work. Very helpful and cordial. I'll follow up with the local couple and post what I learn.