Miele.

Miele

Miele!!

Miele but twice the price of the equilivant Bosch. Our Bosch went our after 11 years and compared Bosch and Miele. Even asked Trevor for his recommendation "Miele"
At the end of the day it washes dishes. Could not justify double the price (1600 vs 847) for the Miele. Aslo was told repair parts for Miele are extremely expensive.

Miele probably better dishwasher, but twice as good???

sorry rick, an "EQUILIVANT" Bosch is not twice it's Miele competitor in price. The spread is roughly 25% and even less if you look at Bosch's only model produced in Germany.

Considering that Bosch uses lesser quality parts (IMO), doesn't pay overseas shipping, duties and customs fees, or currency hedging, and has cheaper labor costs in their NC dishwasher plant - they should be 50% less. Still think they represent a good value???

antss, with all due respect, without more details, how can one answer that question? Overseas shipping, duties, customs fees, currency hedging, and labor costs are not value components inherent in the machines. The quality of the parts, on the other hand, is, but you really aren't offering much in the way of explanation there. Does the Miele last 50% longer, have 50% fewer complaints, 50% fewer service calls, get dishes 50% cleaner, work at 50% fewer decibels, etch 50% fewer glasses, require 50% less soap and softener, cause 50% fewer migraine headaches, offer 50% more in the way of what a consumer wants her/his dishwasher to do, well, you know what I mean? In what way are the materials/components more expensive or of higher quality than those of the Bosches? That would be valuable information in the decision-making process. How much longer does the top-of-the-line Miele last than the top-of-the-line Bosch? Or the equivalently priced Miele vs. Bosch? The mere fact of being imported from Germany does not add value, despite what people think. One can link to plenty of consumer complaints about Miele not offering desired service in Australia, Denmark, U.S., etc. Believe me, I am not intending to bash Miele. Just subjecting the discussion to rational analysis. I have no desire to pay for labor costs, duties, etc., if the machine isn't a whole lot better in its function in my home. By the way, which Bosch model is produced in Germany? Is it available in the U.S. at all? At what price?

"""Does the Miele last 50% longer, have 50% fewer complaints, 50% fewer service calls?""

Yup, and that's the price for doing your own service and making your own parts.

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, and ditto on all who recommend Miele.

"""Does the Miele last 50% longer, have 50% fewer complaints, 50% fewer service calls?""

Yup, and that's the price for doing your own service and making your own parts.

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, and ditto on all who recommend Miele.

"""Does the Miele last 50% longer, have 50% fewer complaints, 50% fewer service calls?""

Yup, and that's the price for doing your own service and making your own parts.

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, and ditto on all who recommend Miele.

detective- I think you misconstrued my between the lines point. Of course no one would want to pay for non value added things like duties/arbitrage/shipping if they had a choice. MY point was twofold: 1. Mieles are not twice the price of their Bosch equivalent & 2. Given the real world $$$ difference consumers should be mindful that a Bosch at roughly 25% less does not have those NVA costs associated with them because they are made domestically. For the sake of argument let's say that equivalent models had equal sale prices F.O.B. factory floor which they kinda do. Under that, the Bosch is a stinker given their less than stellar output lately. OF COURSE you can't get a DW at teh factory floor especially if it's in Germany and the currency costs, shipping, tarifs, duty, ect. are real costs and will be paid by the purchaser. So, at the end of the day a Miele will be more expensive in almost all cases. All of this is simply an abstract "value" discussion.

What almost everyone with an unbiased view agrees on is that Miele has the better DW. They also agree that Mieles cost more. What's harder to agree upon is the question of which is a better value, a lot of times because people confuse value and cost.

EX: Bosch's tubs are now hybrid, pieced designs with plastic bottoms - not entirely stainless like all Mieles. Their control boards/wiring harnesses are less robust - just look at their recall of late because the things tend to catch on fire. Their plastic control interfaces are of a more flimsy plastic that wears prematurely. Their tub frames are not as stout , maybe they are using some sort of super alloy that is stronger and lighter , but I seriously doubt it. Their discharge hoses are thinner and less flexible. They don't even include a supply hose or an electrical connection. Their leveling adjustments points are plastic not metal and tend to cam out under basic install.

Look, I'm not saying Bosch DW's are crap. But, I do feel they are cheapening their brand and they have definitely cut some corners in the last two years with regard to build quality.

Bosch brings in 2 models from the fatherland - an 18" and a 24" I don't remember the model#'s off hand, but they are an 800 series and the only ones with water softeners. The full size list is $2k with a street price around $1700-$1800. Half the Miele line up can be had for that price.

Antss, basically I agree with you, anyway it's not true at all that every BSH DW comes now with a hybrid tub. Here in Europe only budget Bosch series (in the price range 300-->500 Â) have such a tub. MOL and TOL models are full stainless steel.

Give a glance to both american Bosch machines and their british counterparts

BTW it is also true that the US 500 Evolution series (that should be MOL) are nothing else that americanized BOL euro models (those SGS.... models called Avantixx and Classixx in UK): that' s why you' re flooded with hybrid tubs : you lack the actual MOL series

On the other side these few 800 series models are actually siblings of european BSH TOL models : not only BOSCH but also Gaggenau

Bosch is a nice tradeoff here in Europe in the 500 up to 700 Â range, as they have most of the Evolution 800 series features. But when money goes over 1000 Â (TOL Bosch also rebadged as Siemens Neff and Gaggenau) I do agree with you : Miele is "cheaper", meaning that for the same expense one gets a sturdier dishwasher with more features.
For example BSH has just a sprinkler/spinning nozzle over the cutlery rack, Miele (even the BOL 650 Â model) has a full size stainless steel spray arm

Yes, hindroman - but this board is predominately populated by Americans and we don't have access to the majority of the Bosch lineup. The overwhelming majority of DW's from Bosch here have the plastic bottom now. The one model brought over form Germany is a nice unit and I believe actually came out of the Gaggenau division. And while a nice model , over here it's priced in the same category as upper level Miele models. Couple that with Bosch's poor service attitude - especially on premium priced gear and it becomes a no brainer to go with a Miele.

Here's how they deal with it here: "SO, you want a fancy,quality DW and good service? OK, Gaggenau is our brand for that" only in this case you get the same machine for 50% more money upfront.

Just, so you can be treated right in the first place?

And these guys wonder why their sales are slumping.

"Bosch is a nice tradeoff here in Europe"

Used to be the case here, I used to recommend Bosch units for fully integrated high quality DW's where the client was looking to save a few hundred bucks. I even have a couple of their models myself in use.

Sadly , their mgmt here has decided that the good/better/best brand strategy is the way they want to go. That's worked out great so far for Daimler and Volkswagen. Wonder if a sale of Gaggenau and Thermador is in our future?

that the US 500 Evolution series (that should be MOL) are nothing else that americanized BOL euro models (those SGS.... models called Avantixx and Classixx in UK): that' s why you' re flooded with hybrid tubs : you lack the actual MOL series

The overwhelming majority of DW's from Bosch here have the plastic bottom now.

Eh? The only plastic bottomed DWs are the "Avanta"(??) series - the fourth tier. The 800, 500, and 300 are all single stainless steel tub.

Antss, sorry, but Miele's customer service is no paragon of quality. Last year, I had the sorry misfortune to confront customer service for both Miele as well as Bosch. At the end of the day, I tore my hair out listening to the Miele CS agents' double talk - something no ordinary person should have to face - and between the two, the Bosch CS came out the better. Based on all the rhetoric, I honestly expected the opposite.

There have been too many reports here of hair-tearingly frustrating experiences - something I can personally and independently corroborate - with Miele customer service so the old stock in trade that Miele's is grand is simply a myth at this point in time. My good experience with Bosch's CS may have been an anomaly - I can't say, as it was the only time I needed to face either - but the poor grades for Miele CS are not unique either.

Miele makes fantastic products. I wouldn't trade my Miele items for love or money. But I do *NOT* want to talk to a Miele rep for either, either.

What about Fagor? Theirs are fully integrated, have solid (one piece) SS tubs, and they actually dry the dishes. Imagine that. Less than $1,000 for the high end model (not tall tub).

I have a KA (low end) and a Matag at our lake house(very low end), and quite franky, it's just a dishwasher. How on earth anyone can justify spending $1500+ for a dishwasher is beyond me. Did you guys drink the lemonade? No offense of course :-)

As someone considering the bottom of the line panel ready Miele, (about $1,200) I'm trying to justify it as I do many other bigger purchases in my life--buy it once and buy it right. If another dishwasher performs very well, has a good reputation, and can be fully hidden, I will consider it. For me, even with a tight budget, saving a few hundred dollars isn't worth it for something that I will look at and touch everyday for the next 10 years.

We dont see many posts on the lower line Miele DW's.

If you look at it as a 10 year investment, the extra $500 for the Optima, may well be worth it, and in fact, based upon appliance price hikes since 2005 (5 years) and assuming that trend will continue and it probably will with Miele , Gaggenau, SZ and other high priced brands,---That extra $500 will look like "Nutin" in another 5 years.

Let me give you a couple examples.
I bought the Jenn-air 48" paneled fridge (not what our "Purist" here "call truly integrated" for $4588--price any 48" built in fridge now--not good news.
I paid $1094 for my Miele _semi-integrated (the controls show and that's what wife wanted--I like it too. What is the Optima now--$1800?

Anyway, I think You see my point? It smarts now, but ya looks at the price of those appliances in 5 years and you will say, "Such A Deal"!!!

I know, I almost bought an Asko for around $800 instead of the Meile---sure glad I didn't.

Hopes this gives you some "Insight" from "One of Us That Has Been There, Done That" (LOL)

Regards:

Gary

Numbersjunkie - I am with you :) My 400 dollar Whirlpool cleans just fine. I am particularly sensitive since I want two (large family/lots of entertaining).

Any more info about the Fagor? Except for the issue of service (we have to go to Atlanta to buy it), I am almost sold. Love the heated dry, great reviews, and surely better than the 400 Whirlpool ;). It also has delay start which is a MUST in my house - run the dishwasher while we sleep and unload in am. I don't think the least expensive Miele has this?? or am I wrong?

I have to have fully integrated though which is what is leading me down this path. Otherwise I'd get a kitchenaid.

mindstorm - I'm not trying to discount you're poor service experience. But keep in mind that service depts. are made up of people and every situation is different so even the best are not immune to pissing off people.

I just came from a former clients home which we did 7+ years ago but did not sell the appliances, and I noticed she had a new Miele DW. Turns out about a year ago her Incognito red light came on and wouldn't go off. Techs galor came out and replaced about everything- no luck. She got a brand new unit after some calls from the dealer. So, a couple hundred dollar service call for an out of warranty unit equaled new DW. This is on the other end of the spectrum from your experience.

My point is really that my experience of 15+ years has lead me to this: Miele has better products and service than Bosch does. This is by no means a guarantee that everyone will get a flawless product from them that lasts 20 years or that if svc. is needed that it will be up to high standards. People can also still get a gem from Bosch and a freebie from parts now and then too.

BUT, playing the percentages - you are better off with Miele.

Miele Miele Miele. Wish I could afford one!