Applnut mentioned it in the post linked below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Applnut's post

Yes, Bradlee must really be wondering about this current epidemic. Apparantly, we are members of an exclusive, but growing club. But I have been told more than once that any other company would not back up their products like Wolf does, which is one of the main reasons I bought several appliances from their line.

Thanks, Rhome.

I agree with you, Gharborwa. One of the reasons I finally decided to buy these horrendously expensive ovens, even at the floor model price which I paid, was Wolf's excellent CS record. So far so good with that, but I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of their oven quality.

Update: My new ovens were installed about 20 minutes ago. They look great, and the installers were very capable, funny, friendly, and careful guys. I apologized when they walked in for creating such a delicate work environment for them: hardwood floors, white cabs, and marble and walnut countertops.

I'm in the process of doing the slow burn-off method, which will take many hours, but I'm willing to give it a try if there's even a remote chance it may prevent the porcelain issue in the future. Not holding my breath though. :-(

Aaah, fellow "Wolfies", my L series oven was installed yesterday and I will be on heightened alert for the dreaded flaking syndrome. Plan to perform due diligence with the "burn in" process. Thanks for all of the posts! Ciao ciao, L

Hi
We designed a new kitchen and planned it for a 30" Wolf e series and steam oven on top.

I'm concerned about the flaking porcelain issue and called Wolf. A tech there told me that the new e series is designed with a separate bottom to eliminate the flaking so many have reported. The rep also told me that there's a new 30" steam oven due out next year. Anyone else hear about this?

Any help is welcomed
Thanks
Rich

I think the separate bottom would help a lot with the crazing/flaking issues like I had in the corners of my oven. The seam should mean the porcelain doesn't take so much stress when the oven heats and cools. I hadn't heard they'd be doing that in the E series, but if they are, that's smart, and a good thing, IMO.

Links that might help:
http://newgeneration.subzero-wolf.com/Content/WolfAdvancedDesignGuide.pdf

http://newgeneration.subzero-wolf.com/product-availability/built-in-ovens#filters

Does anyone know if they are using blue enamel in the m oven?
I do think if you have separate pieces, it will be much easier to repair.

Hi
We designed a new kitchen and planned it for a 30" Wolf e series and steam oven on top.

I'm concerned about the flaking porcelain issue and called Wolf. A tech there told me that the new e series is designed with a separate bottom to eliminate the flaking so many have reported. The rep also told me that there's a new 30" steam oven due out next year. Anyone else hear about this?

Any help is welcomed
Thanks
Rich

I just did my initial burn-off with my new E-series oven. I have the prior model E series. My distributor is also Bradlee in Seattle.... hoping that my oven won't be experiencing any chipping issues...

Forgot to add that I have a Rev B version of the E-series oven. Will report later after some significant cooking has occurred.

Fox, what do you mean by "Rev B" version of the E series oven?

"Wekick" did you ever try and contact anyone else at Wolf? Write a (hard copy) letter or pursue this further via another method? I'm still just kind of surprised, and saddened, that you didn't get any better resolution.

There were "Rev. B" stickers on the box, materials and oven when I received it. My SZ also had a "Rev. B." I'm assuming they made minor changes in some of the components at one point and labeled it that way like software gets version codes?? I'm not sure at all. The manufacture date of my oven was Dec. 2012.

No applnut, I haven't. We have been gone most of the summer and busy. It has gone to the back burner so to speak.

I just spoke to a product specialist at Wolf. The new E series will have a removable bottom. This is how Wolf is addressing the porcelain chipping problem. They would rather replace the bottom rather than a whole oven.

Way less hassle for everyone involved, I'd think.

I sure wish they'd told me they were working on this change instead of bailing on me. A little transparency and reassurance that they were doing something about it (they obviously already had this change in the works) and I would still have a Wolf oven. (And talk about hassles that could have been averted.) I miss mine so much! My dream is that they'd see the 'errors of their ways' in my case, and make sure I had one again. Like I said, it's a dream.

Maybe i missed something - how will having a removable bottom address the flaking on the oven door that breezy had? I can understand it might help the bottom corners of oven, but the door?

It won't, of course, halt all chipping, but doors are already easily replaceable, and there doesn't seem to be as widespread a problem with the doors. Replacing double ovens is no small task, so replacing the bottoms of the oven cavities will be much easier and faster, and require, probably, only one service person. --And with no risk of damage to the rest of the house and cabinet. Lots of plusses, besides the possibility that the porcelain won't be as stressed, so may not chip as readily.

Okay, thanks Rhome! All that makes sense. Is there a reason why they continue to use the blue porcelain at all? Not trying to be sarcastic, but if they are having these problems, wouldn't an alternative be to discontinue the porcelain? I am just trying to learn here.
BTW, how are you making out with the Gagg?

My 2nd Fisher & Paykel oven had black porcelain, and it pitted and splintered, too. I think it's less noticeable because the metal and porcelain sort of match? It may also have to do with oven shape. On a rounded corner (rounded in 2 directions), while the metal expands and contracts, and the porcelain can't, it seems a recipe for problems, not matter the color. My hated GE Monogram oven had the speckly, gray interior that seemed thinner and more paintlike... It didn't have problems, at least not in the several months I had that oven.

The Gagg is ok (the porcelain seems to be staying intact, I have to say that), but I really miss the Wolf. It was just more 'me,' I guess. The size and the racks are an adjustment I haven't enjoyed, as well as pizza baking issues. Obviously, pizza isn't everything, but it's become a yardstick for measuring oven performance, I guess, for us. I have been planning to write a blog post about the details, and why I have that dream of Wolf coming through for me... So now I think I will follow through on that, rather than write a big, long post here. I'll come back and give the link when I have it done, for those who are interested.

Here is a link that might be useful: Blog post, contentment w Gagg vs Wolf

This post was edited by rhome410 on Sun, Nov 3, 13 at 0:17

Bad news from A2 land.
My Wolf oven is popping up with the dreaded MDL Circuit error. I am just about to call Wolf. Keep your fingers crossed that they will fix it for me.

The good news - I just turn it off and back on and still working so far.

If you are still under warranty, I would email Wolf and let them know about the error message. Keep a copy of their response so you have a record of notifying them while still under warranty.

Kalapointer I am between 2-3 years so will be interesting to see how they handle my oven. They are coming dec 11

I have an authorization code - so stay tuned! They are sending an actual factory repair person and not from the local repair shops.

I rejected the local repair place as they totally messed up my DW years back.

This post was edited by a2gemini on Tue, Dec 2, 14 at 15:27

Hi, I am deciding between the double Wolf eSeries and the double Bosch Benchmark side swing oven. The Wolf porcelain issue concerns me. I've heard Bosch doesn't have as strong service as Wolf. Anyone used both? Thanks!

Yesterday, I had 24 people over for Thanksgiving dinner. Had my two turkeys in my double over for an hour, then took one out to flip it and baste it, and put it back in the oven to continue to cook. When I tried to lower the temperature, I got the dreaded MDL circuitry error code and both ovens stopped working. Ugh! Wolf service recommended turning off the circuit breaker, which we tried many times, but it never worked. My oven was installed one year ago - all I can say is that an oven that costs this much should never have something like this happen to a customer. Totally unacceptable!

Well, sure sorry to hear about that, butt~~~~~~, how bout the rest of the story, What happened to the turkeys, were you able to use a neighbor's oven, or do you have a very reliable "backup oven", like our 9 year old Electrolux Icon, that hasn't had a single problem since day one, not even a burned out light bulb.

We had nine ppl over and one turkey, several pies etc, so I can certainly imagine how you felt when the oven would not come back on.

Gary

My brother lives two blocks away so we took the two turkeys and five side dishes to his house to cook. They were just starting to eat dinner when our oven conked out so their oven was available. My husband and I made four trips back and forth, leaving us with little time to socialize with our family. It was a total drag, but the food all turned out great. On our way home we saw an ambulance at a house down the street - - reminded us that despite our oven problems we have a lot to be thankful for.

Glad it all worked out.

Strange World or at least "Coincidences" . Wife saw an ambulance at our next door neighbors, last evening, (Thanksgiving). They also had 19 guests.

One Lady apparently fell, who already was recovering from hip surgery. She fell, broke an ankle in one leg and broke the big bone in her other leg, so Yep, an oven problem, thou a "pita", is pretty minor compared to ambulance visits!

Gary

Jean- I had the dreaded MDL twice. Wolf covered the repairs out of warranty. Good luck!

Gary, sorry about your neighbor.

Well thanks, it was actually a relative of the neighbors, but of course we feel for her.

Gary

Here is the BIG test. We have an e-series which we have enjoyed for many a pizza dinner, steak broiling, countless tarte tatin's, baked chickens, potatoes gratin, etc. We, too have been hit by the dreaded MDL error - many times over the past 5 years. To date, flipping the circuit (a pain) has worked, or wiggling the latch..but this week, it gave out completely on us.

I just reached out to Wolf asking if they would cover the repair, noting that we are far outside of warranty period and suggesting that the MDL should be covered as it was a manufacturing error (bad part).

I'm hopeful of a positive response. I'll keep you posted.

While this issue is annoying, we do a great deal of cooking and make big demands on our Wolf cooktop and E-series oven. We have been a Wolf family for over 30 years (my mom, Anne Otterson was one of the first chefs to install an industrial Wolf gas stove in her home....before permitting laws made that impossible! FYI - the stove still works great! And, in 30 years, she only replaced the Wolf ovens once) - so much to say....we're big Wolf fans and believe there is value in the hire investment required to move up to Wolf.

Eric - how did Wolf respond? We have E Series ovens way out of warranty which also display the MDL circuitry error. Gotta be honest, I haven't been impressed with Wolf. Numerous times we have had techs come out to look at our oven temps - consistently states it reaches desired temp but numerous oven thermometers have confirmed our suspicions of 25 degrees cool. Techs blame opening the door, not allowing enough pre-heat time, techs "tested" it with grands biscuits which allegedly are sooo consistent - Guess what they were a little doughy!!! Well Wolf paid for a couple visits, no repairs, and the oven "trained us" by just adjusting cooking temps +25. Shameful coming from such an expensive appliance manufacturer. Now we are dealing with this....

Well, it's been a while since I've posted!

Again, I'm sorry about the problems folks have had with the Wolf ovens.

Some of you may recall that I bought all my appliances back in 2006. Soo~~~~~, how have they done?

The Electrolux Oven, The Electrolux Speed Oven, The Electrolux Induction cooktop and The Electrolux wine fridge have never needed repairs in all these years, cept for tightening the handle on the speed oven! The regular oven continues to work as it did when brand new and the 3 fully gliding out (ball bearing) racks still "smooth as silk".

The Miele DW had to have an inlet valve changed about a year ago now, that cost about $500 and I wrote a check to Miele but~~~~ they never cashed it!

The DW is rarely used and works fine now.

The Jenn-Air fridge bit the dust after 11 years, due to the inability of Whirlpool recommended companies being able to fix a defrost problem, (Horrific Service)!!! Anyway it was replaced with a Sub Zero BI 48 and we love it!

Gary

Hi Gary, good to see you here. My Electrolux oven is still going great after 10 years but did require the liner to be changed due to blue chipping. I still love the way it bakes so will dread the day it goes. It was much cheaper to change the liner on the Elux than the Wolf.

Our sub-Z's are 9 yrs old and never had one issue or complaint! Our Bosch dishwasher has also been flawless. Wolf gas cooktop = flawless. Wolf microwave = flawless. Wolf warming drawer = no problems but does not maintain humidity of the food as advertised and stated by sales professionals (so...meh, its okay). Wolf E-Series ovens = not good and I haven't recommended Wolf for quite some time. Sounds like we should consider Electrolux when replacing our Wolf double ovens.

Good to see wekick and the rest of you as well.

I never had any problems with the cobalt blue interior of my Electrolux oven.We have only self cleaned it once in the 12 yers that we've owned it. The oven has the removable bottom so it is easy to clean and just no need for self cleaning. Unfortunately, Electrolux discontinued the removable bottom.

As far as considering Electrolux ovens to replace the Wolf, I would STRONGLY NOT Recommend in dong so. Why??? First Electrolux ovens are not built now they way they were back in 2006. They have been cheapened considerably, and recent reviews show poor ratings for the Electrolux ovens!

In fact my next door neighbor was going to remodel their kitchen and asked me for advice on choosing appliances. Sooo, once again I hit the net and studied up, (to get current).

Some of you may recall that Electrolux tried to buy out GE appliances when it was for sale. Our "xxx Government, (I'll be nice), turned down Electrolux and instead let a Chinese company buy GE Appliances. Yeah our Govt picked the Chinese over the Swedes, (that's all I'll say about that!!!!). Anyway this added to problems that Electrolux was having (in the upper Echelon) and for now, I recommend, "Stay Away"!!!

Anyway doing my appliance studying diligently I recommended my neighbor buy the Bosch Induction Range. They did and are very happy with it, except it does not have the nice bright lighting for the controls that my Electrolux Icon Induction cooktop has and they will install a new hood with lights in it, above the range.

As my previous post indicated, I had horrific service on my Jenn-Air Fridge, (Now owned by Whirlpool), and my neighbor had the same horrible service with their Kitchenaid dishwasher (also owned by Whirlpool) needless to say, that Whirlpool and the appliances that it owns, (Maytag, Kitchenaid, Jenn-Air and Whirlpool) appliances were "out of the running"

Anyway to "Sum it up", right now I would look at Bosch and Miele appliances should I need to replace any of my appliances. I do hope Wolf gets their oven act together as I do love our Sub Zero Fridge, but for now I would replace any of my appliances with Miele, should the need arise, (due to their GREAT Service), except for the Fridge, I would buy another SZ but as I'm 76 yers old it "should" outlast me LOL!

Gary

Great insight Gary. Have a great day!

Update: Contacted Wolf and was connected with a great representative. Explained problem & she looked at our service history and noted several other issues. We asked is it time to stop dumping money in this Wolf hole, part ways, and we try another manufacturer? She listened and really wanted to help. Stated they would send local technician out at their expense to diagnose and offered to cover parts expense for repair. We would have to pay for actual labor. Circuit board and relay latch were replaced - back in business!!! It's been a few weeks, and no problems.

Very satisfied with Wolf's customer service. Hopefully trouble free from here on out....

This has been a great discussion! Thank you to everyone who shared their experiences.

i need to be ready to replace my 13 yr old Jenn Air (sensor board died last year and is acting up again this year, out of warranty of course. Plus the convection never really did anything).

I bake at high temps every week when I make bread. Also, frequently use 2 or 3 racks at a time.

Love the idea of the new convection in Wolf M series, but concerned about interior chipping and really don’t want to pay that much.

Mistakenly thought that only blue interiors were porcelain so elimated some brands unnecessarly and was considering Fisher Paykel, Thermador, Bosch and Miele.

Since Wolf is too much $, the Gaggenau is out of the question. Any recommendations for 500 F cooking and an oven that can take a lot of use?

I’m not sure my opinion is a huge help, since 1) I haven’t fully researched ovens in a few years now (thank goodness), and 2) I’ve become a bit jaded by spending for premium ovens to get quality, only to get problems.

F&P and Wolf were my best baking ovens, but too many porcelain problems. My Gagg doesn’t have the porcelain problems at all, and, while I love the amount of control I have in choosing which elements it employs for what I’m baking, and whether it uses convection fans or not, I’d never pay the price for it again. -Mine was an outdated floor model, so a comparatively ‘good deal,’ but still more than I wish I’d spent. And a new one at new prices? No way.

I’m pretty much fully on board with what 59 Dodge (Hi, Gary!) said above. Elux used to be a good choice, but I wouldn’t trust it now. When we first looked at ovens, Miele was my ‘If price was no object’ dream oven, based on their strict quality control in the manufacturing process, from start to beautiful finish. However, several years ago some very experienced bakers had some temperature issues that Miele didn’t seem to be addressing to their satisfaction. Also, my sister, a specialty dessert and wedding cake baker, bought on of their double wall ovens, and was never impressed as she thought she would be. The performance was ‘fine,’ but not spectacular, and she said they were small inside. So, this is where I part ways a little with Gary, I am not sure I’d consider Miele...although all of my concerns may have been addressed in recent models; I just don’t know. They’re pretty pricey and I’m less inclined to take expensive risks any more.

Bosch is made by the same parent company as Gagg. We can hope that, but certainly not count on, they use the same materials or technique in coating their oven interiors. (They don’t have a stellar reputation for service, but then, with my Gagg oven or Bosch dishwashers, I haven’t needed to find out!) We haven’t seen anything here, that I know of, about porcelain problems...or, really, any other problems with Bosch ovens. Last I looked in person, they had roomier interiors than other brands and good lighting, and from what I see in current ads, their styling has improved and looks great. All this to say, I’ve decided that if I replace ovens or do another kitchen, Bosch is at the top of my list. If the baking isn’t as controlled as Gagg or as perfect as Wolf, but I’ve got GOOD performances, spent half (or less), and don’t have any hassles, I’d be very happy.

Also, I had a JennAir ‘convection’ range about 15 years ago. It turned out not to be ‘European convection,’ but their own version that used another fan set up. Like you found with yours, it was all hype. When, because the oven vented hot air right in front of the electronic board for the cooktop, so it kept melting the wires, they gave me a partial refund. I replaced it with a plain, non-convection GE that did better 2-rack baking! So if that’s the kind of performance you’ve had, I’m betting the Bosch would be a big jump you could be happy with.

Best wishes.

Thank you!!! Glad to hear the Gaggenau is still going strong. I will focus on the Bosch line. In another thread-under Appliance- I asked for feedback on certain Thermador, Miele and FP models. Someone asked why I didn’t consider Bosch and I explained that I had but a salesman steered me towards the Thermador and said it was better built. The poster mentioned that since they work on commisssion, he would expect that. I never considered that. So appreciate your input even more..

I suppose you know that Thermador is in the same family, situated between Bosch and Gaggenau. I *think* that it’s a dressed up Bosch rather than a dressed down Gagg. They are cool looking, to be sure, but when I looked (2013 or early 14?) I don’t remember them having any more remarkable modes or features than the Bosch, especially for the price difference. I would have a salesman try to be very specific about why and what is better before I gave that claim any credence. It’s true that in addition to actual info about the ovens, you have to consider the salesperson’s motivation in how he/she steers you. Another layer to this complex decision!

Yes, I know they are under the same umbrella. The Masterpiece line hasn’t been upgraded since 2012 (professional came out 2011). Once I got specs from Thermador people and saw that they were updating both lines to go in same direction as others with WiFi, it turned me off. I am a bit concerned about being able to get parts in 10-15 years if I go with existing models. When does the 10-15 years of getting parts kick off, when it was first released or when I buy?

I headed over to the more simple (non steam, WiFi) Miele ovens because of the twin convection. Seems like it would be a better way to go but not sure if it really is a better convection system than Bosch or Thermador. Those handles do worry me though. Being attached to glass seems problematic.

The Fisher Paykel looks good with the telescopic racks. But service is a concern and the chipping a deal breaker.

I have to say I loved the dual convection in the Wolf. It was very well tested and accomplished what it claimed. I was aware that Jenn-Air was trying their own version when I got the Gagg, and should’ve realized others would’ve by now, but haven’t seen the Miele twin convection. Sounds intriguing! I don’t know your situation, and if you have the money, go for what you think will perform best for you... but I always have to consider finances, so I’d be thinking a lot about how much ‘better’ it might be, and how much better is necessary.

I’ve always said I wish for a fairly basic oven with build quality and good (convection) performance. Too many bells and whistles take away from the goal of excellent and even baking, and add more things to go wrong!

I totally agree. Just want something that bakes evenly, can withstand high heat of bread baking, and allows for multitrack cooking (preferably without having to move top to bottom and front to back). Why ovens are going in the direction of wifi is beyond me. I get the guided cooking trend but doubt I would use it very much. Also get the steam trend but don't want to deal with hassles of maintenance. I too have to consider the cost and make sure that the benefits are warranted. It is so confusing, I created a spreadsheet of pros and cons to keep everything straight. Just hope I can figure this out before my Jenn Air dies completely. The convection roast failed last night so the chicken breasts were dried out but the potatoes and carrots didn't suffer too much. Luckily, I was also using the sous vide for steak tips so was able to serve them as the main courser for dinner. Will have to doctor up the chicken for another meal.

Is there anywhere you can see live demos of the ovens you're considering? Does your appliance store have any live ovens that they might let you try out, or is there maybe a distributor with a demo kitchen nearby? They always want to show cookies, but if you could try breads, it'd be more telling, and could go a long way in helping you determine whether or not the extra money for Miele (or Thermador) is worth it over a Bosch. It's a hassle to push for it, and might feel awkward to bake in public, but this is a major, long-term purchase! -And, of course, always, always, take the pans (and the quantity of them) you like to use and make sure they fit.

Maybe, I know that the place I am looking to buy from does live demos on Wolf. I will call tomorrow to ask about the Thermador and Miele ovens. Good idea. Would you be concerned about servicing the Thermador down the road since new models are coming out soon?

I’m not at all knowledgeable about that, but I think you’re right to be concerned, and I’d ask lots of questions. But if the model is that old, while other ovens are moving forward, I’d want to check on what you’re missing for any possible price savings. I gave up gliding racks in buying the older Gagg version and that’s a daily sacrifice after having them on other brands! I’d also see if Thermador has specific parts you need, because Gagg parts are pricey! If you can talk to an appliance tech, they might have some insight on brands and parts availability and prices. They have their own biases, but their opinion isn’t affected by a sales commission.

I'm having the MDL run timeout problem also. They never seemed to fix this. I would never buy another Subzero product. My Wolf microwave, oven and SZ refrigeraytor all broke within 5 years of purchase. Never had that problem with my old appliances.