manhrut

on the surface, a very nice system possibly with some overkill features. I will assume you are sized correctly.

however, let's break it down.

1. an 80% furnace is a dinosaur with today's energy costs.
OK if paired with a high eff heat pump.

2.I hope your quoting dealer told you this system does not qualify for the Fed Govt tax credit of up to $1500. A big mistake leaving this on the table.

3.I do not like 3rd party evap coils like ADP. Why was this quoted?

4.Merv 16 filters are overkill in my opinion and sometimes counterproductive.

5.I see no mention of a new refrigerant lineset which I recommend.

6.I do not care for plastic condenser pad base.

7.any specific reason for the humidifier and UV light asbly?

perhaps others can offer their opinions.

this is mine.

TD

Thanks for these comments tigerdunes. I appreciate you taking the time. Re the refrigeration piping this is what it says "Contractor shall pressure test the existing refrigeration piping, verify that it is holding pressure and then evacuate the system for 2 hours to remove contamination and old Freon 22" but we (this is for a daughter's house) will ask for it to be replaced it seems to make sense.

Re the tax credit he explicitly says in the proposal that the system qualifies for it. We took him at his word but we will read the regulation to check on that.

I also raised the question to my daughter of the need for the air cleaning controls (filter, uv etc) as there is no indication air quality has been a problem and there are no people in that household with lung or allergy issues. And the need for a humidifier I don't know unless that is typical for such a system (I have radiators and a boiler and a separate ac system so we have no experience of the dryness from forced air). What kind of pad would you use instead of the one proposed? Thanks for any additional help.

Just to clarify on the tax credit, the system does actually qualify (tiger, see ARI # 3282904). That's probably why the ADP coil is being used--to get the required ratings.

and i would highly suggest changing the lineset (copper tubing) especially if your going from r-22 to 410-a. there is some stuff that can be used call r-11 flush we sometimes use it if its a must have situation but usually we switch lines. i dont see anything wrong with having a plastic pad. thats what we use and sometimes they have a concrete covering w/styrofoam it usually depends on availability but both do the same job.

thanks Ryan

3282904 Active Coil (Mix-Match) ADP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ANA736A30 ADVANCED DISTRIBUTOR PRODUCTS C36A***C536 58CV(A,X)090-16 34600 13.00 16.50 1 RCU-A-CB 226 Yes

my bad. Sometimes the AHRI Directory is not as accurate and dependable as it should be. If you type in a three ton for qualifying Infinity 17 models, all you get are six systems with air handlers, not any mix match/third party coil systems.

with that said and today's high energy costs including nat gas, manrut gets the tax credit but an 80% paired with a straight AC is a mistake for DC area/climate.

I prefer a concrete poured pad over a cheap plastic pad.

New refrigerant lineset is preferred if there are no building obstructions.

Why the need for a Merv 16 air cleaner cabinet? A Merv 10-11 would be more than adequate.

Why the need for a humidifier and UV light asbly?

It's a pitiful situation when one has to reach for third party coils to meet tax credit qualifying standards.

I have no problem with the 80% eff furnace for DC area if a qualifying HP condenser is available. Otherwise consider a 95% eff furnace that also gets the tax credit.

IMO

I would also recommend upgrading to the 95% efficienty furnace. The 58MVC80 Infinity furnace paired with a 4 ton Carrier coil could work. The furnace would qualify for the tax credit, but the AC would not.

This assumes PVC piping could be installed to vent the furnace.

1409019 Active Systems INFINITY 17 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ANA736A30 CNPV*4821A** 58MV(B,C)080-20 35000 12.30 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 236

The 15% increase in efficiency can easily offset the additional cost. I also recommend a 10 parts and labor warranty preferrably directly from Carrier.

I'd agree w/ tigerdunes that a HP is probably a better choice than 95% furnace. But it's going to depend on local gas and electric rates. HP to move heat around at 3:1 heat to input power is going to use less energy than burning gas, but it's a question of what the costs are. Especially since the newer HPs will function to pretty low ambient conditions.

Thanks everyone for this additional input. Re the heat pump for heating over the gas furnace, electricity rates in a newspaper article are said to be going up to $149.96 for 1,000 kilowatt hours from June 1 and gas seems to be around $1.1933/therm. I can't get better than this as we are billed in DC and this is for a daughter's house across the DC line in Maryland so I got these of the internet.

No-one seems to like the ADP coil. I understand why it was proposed but what is wrong with it?

Also does everyone agree that the Merv 16 air cleaner cabinet is overkill and that 10-11 would be fine?

Thanks a lot again.

What length warranty are they providing on the coil and system as a whole? I certainly don't think the Carrier coil would much more if any more reliable than the ADP coil. ADP coils are used many times for efficiency ratings (I think these setups are computer simulated though, so whether the efficiency is actually what it is rated at is anybody's guess -- it qualifies for the tax credit and that's what matters).

You're right in my general location (Montgomery County) I believe. I'm not in the business but am more than happy to share the names of a couple companies I know to be reputable. I'm sure you've been quoted a high price comparatively speaking for this top-end system so it doesn't hurt to get a couple more bids. I probably know of the company, if you want to share who you received the bid from.

Hi Ryan
This is the warranty information.

Two (2) year warranty on all parts and labor provided by (contractor), from date of installation.
Two (2) year preventative maintenance coverage, from the date of installation, with a preseason check out of the system in the fall and spring of each year.
Ten (10) year manufacturerÂs part warranty on all Carrier equipment, from date of installation.
Ten (10) year manufacturerÂs part warranty on the Carrier compressor, from the date of installation.
Twenty (20) year manufacturerÂs limited part warranty on the Carrier heat exchanger, from the date of original installation.

Base Contract Price:$10,100.00
Add for humidifier, air filtration and UV lights:$ 1,300.00
Add for domestic hot water heater if done at same time:$ 900
Total Contract Price: $12,300.00
Website Coupon $1,100
Net Price Paid to contractor: $11,200.00
Carrier Rebate (direct to owner): $1,150
Federal Tax Credit (ARI #3320500): $ 1,500.00
Net price after rebate and tax credit: $ 8,550.00

Another lower price option was also given.
Substitute the Carrier Model 58PHA-090-1-16 furnace with the Carrier Model 24ACB436A condenser rated at 16 SEER / single stage / reuse thermostat. Deduct $1,550.00 from the net price paid after rebate and tax credit.

I don't want to post the contractor's name here but will tell you in a separate email. We have used this contractor for a new boiler,new runtal radiators plus smart tank system a few years ago and we have been told by another company (Arlington H/C) that has always serviced our equipment but did not come through with a bid on this job that it was very well done so we have some confidence in the firm. In the DC area it seems to us that prices for everything are much higher than they would be in other parts of the country. I would appreciate suggestions of other companies to contact if you send me an email from my home page at gardenweb. Thanks

I appreciate the advice on the Carrier system in my first posting and we have noted changes we want to that based on your comments. Now we have two Lennox quotes from another dealer and I would appreciate any input.

1. Lennox G4OUH-36B-090 90K BTU/hr, 80% B.T.U.E

Condensing unit Lennox 13 ACX-036 with C33-38 B coil 33,800 Btu/hr sound 72 decibels, SEER 13

Thermostat Aprilaire 8363 with matching heat/cool sub bases
TOTAL COST after rebates from Lennox ($700) and company ($200)=$5468

2. Lennox G6OUHV-36B-090 90K BTU/hr, 80% B.T.U.E

Condensing unit which qualifies for $1500 tax credit
Lennox XC21-036 with C33-38 B coil 37.600 Btu/hr sound 72 decibels, SEER 18.9

Same thermostat as above

TOTAL after rebates as above = $8029 (not taking into account the tax credit).

Thanks. I hope I have typed this out correctly as it was given in a pdf file so I could not cut and paste.

Hi all

Our daughter has decided not to go with the 95% models (good reasons) and we are now down to deciding between this system below and the Lennox in my posting above. I would very much appreciate any comments. Thanks very much.

Bryant AC Model 180ANA036
Bryant Air Handler or Furnace Model 315AAV048090
Heat Exchanger Warranty 20
Bryant Evaporator Coil CNPVP 3617ATA
Gas Valve Two-Stage
Blower Speed Variable
AFUE Rating 80%
Thermostat Evolution
SEER Rating 18.0
EER Rating 13.2
Compressor Speed 2
Job Pricing $10131.00
Company Discount-$400.00
Bryant Rebate -$1000.00

Job Total $8731.00
Option: Bryant Water Saver By-Pass Humidifier. Price Complete- $610.00 at time of system install (normally $860.00 value.)

Other things they will do which may be standard with equipment in some cases: factory supplied Bryant filter cabinet capable of accepting standard 1 inch throw away filter, new A/C pad; new outdoor electrical disconnect;new refrigerant line set with a new filter drier. System to be purged with nitrogen and a triple evacuation performed to ensure complete moisture removal;new 3/8 inch vinyl tubing from condensate pump to outdoors; necessary flue piping.

All installed Bryant Equipment has a (10) ten Year ManufacturerÂs parts warranty.
A/C & Heat Pump have (10) ten Year Compressor Warranty.
Contractor will guarantee the labor on this installation for (2) two years.

Hey Tigerdunes,

I'm here in Frederick and was wondering if you would share those reputable dealers/installers for the area? Thanks, Glen

Hi dopalgangr

Tigerdunes just commented and did not offer any contractors if I remember. I was the poster so if you email me directly I will be happy to let you know who we interviewed.

manrut
a very nice system that qualifies for the tax credit. I have to admit that I don't care for the 80% eff furnace unless paired with a HP. However, that's your decision.

IMO
Good Luck!

for dopalgangr

can't help you with a dealer for your area. perhaps Ryan will see your post and be able to respond.

Good Luck!

Thanks tigerdunes and ryanhughes for all your help in getting us to understand the systems we have been offered. It looks like we will go with the better Bryant equipment and I have emailed dopalgangr privately with the names of contractors we liked. What it came down to with us was how comfortable we felt with the contractor and that was in large part determined by the time he took going over everything. I think all of them would have been OK with a few tweaks and the costs were pretty much the same apples to apples comparison. Of course it didn't do any harm that the person we are going with was the last one to come and our learning curve was pretty steep thanks to the help from this forum.