I can't tell if your hood is on an outside wall or not. If it is, Independent makes a hood that can vent horizontally directly out the back thru the wall (rather than up and out).

If thats not an option, have you looked at other brands instead of VAH to see if any of them require less than an 8" outlet

Ok, I know little about hoods, but what I'm wondering is... why can't you go straight out the wall without going into the floor/ceiling above first? Is the range against an exterior wall? (And I hope this isn't such a stupid question that it just stresses you even more!)

WHat is your GC or installers take on this situation (or are yyou DIY? I can't remember)

Mainly.... just sending good thoughts and solidarity - sounds like you're hitting snags right out of the gate, so here's hoping it will settle down soon! Good luck. Oh, and breathe - it WILL work out in the end somehow, even if not exactly as you planned :)

How is your MBR closet organized? We reorganized ours last year and have doubled our space. If you take the vent through - and there's room to relatively inexpensively rework the closet - I think you'll be happiest.

We have something like the one I linked in. It made a big difference, and it was incredibly easy to install.

We also have 4 underbed storage boxes from Ikea, for foldable jeans, shorts, and sweaters. I think this is the right link (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20092230); although ours have little wheels, and I can't see any here.

Here is a link that might be useful: Closet System

ok, I'm reading this and all of a sudden I just had massive panic. there is no whole cut in for my hood. I have no idea what kind of hood I've got either (I let the kd handle that since I didn't care) but I hope the kd and the gc have talked because I have no whole in the wall....maybe I have recirculating?

Another kink!

BTW...the cooktop is on an interior wall (the wall b/w the LR and Kitchen...the main load-bearing wall as it goes the entire length of the house).

Even if we can go up through the MBR closet, it turns out we would have to have 2 bends to get there...the main waste pipe crosses the bay (the space b/w 2 joists) where the vent hood needs to go. We would have to jut out toward the center of the kitchen about 4" beyond the upper cabinets and then go up...we could probably do it w/45o elbows, but I don't think I'd like the look! If we had a "warehouse" style, it might work, but we have a traditional style so I really don't think it will work!!!

The waste pipe used to be in a soffit and our KD had an idea for working around it, but when they discovered the 6" space and the tub waste pipe on the other end (exterior wall), they realized it wouldn't work.

Her idea, which she's done before, was to build a mini-soffit b/w the two short upper cabinets & either side of the vent hood and then running the waste pipe through the back of the tall upper cabinets.

Two pictures to show you what I mean...the first shows you the bay the Hood ductwork needs to go through. My KD was planning on going behind the main waste pipe and then across to vent over the window on the other side of the kitchen...until we ran into the 6" wall space problem and the tub waste pipe problem. (I don't think she knew that HVAC duct work was there either...we did open up several peepholes into the soffit, but you couldn't see it from any of the holes.)

This shows you the tub waste pipe that runs through the bay on the other end. This is the exterior wall.

[BuffetGirl, we may be in the same boat w/recirculating!!! Could you be venting straight up through the ceiling?]

I couldn't follow all of the twists and turns about the needed twists and turns and blocking waste pipes, but I'm linking to a very informative site that has some nice explanations about planning ventilation exhaust routes. Of course, I can't guarantee any of these will work, but at least it'll help you identify the options.

In ours, we had to convert from a 6" round duct to a 4 x 10 rectangular to go through our rafters/joists, and also swivel over to the next joist space to avoid bathroom drain lines and recessed can lights. Since our hood was boxy (versus a chimney style), we were able to zig to the side inside the box using a couple of 45's before disappearing into the rafter space.

Hope this helps...

Here is a link that might be useful: Useful info about venting

Buehl - I feel your pain! I also started demolition on Monday and have had a couple of problems already. First - major duct going to my son's room and main bath on 2nd floor in soffit that was being taken out. The fix -- install a second heat pump in attic ($$$, $$$$). At least we have heat on our second floor now -- the old heat pump really couldn't get a lot of heat up there.
Second -- sim. to you -- was going to use existing duct work to vent my VAH. No go, the architect measured incorrectly (gasp!!). My GH said recirculating hood, I said no way. They are going to put another duct in through another bay, I don't think it's going to be 8" round, but square. Goes all the way up through 2nd floor and attic, out of roof. Hope this works for the VAH!!! Does anyone else have this set up?
The "architect measuring wrong" really makes me nervous about what is to come next!

Perhaps you can ask the plumbers if there is anything that can be done about the waste pipe.

jayne

buehl - no, couldn't be going straight up - that's my bedroom. in fact there is no duct work in place at all..

My contractor isn't here right now but when he gets back I'll ask him.

the only thing that is keeping me calm is that the other day I was snooping through paperwork in his folder (hey, it's my house, I'll look through the folder that has MY name on it LOL ) and I found range hood info that he must have gotten from the KD, so I know at least they're on the situation, but maybe he got the info and forgot? I hope not.

Another idea. Maybe you could create a custom cabinet with a very shallow top shelf along the cabinet run, effectively making a soffit *behind* the top shelf. (It's always hard to reach the stuff in the back of the top shelf anyway.)

jayne

Thanks so much everyone for the ideas & support...you're all awesome!!!

Sweeby, I like your idea. We would have to switch to either an under cabinet mounted hood or a chimney the same width as the hood...but that's OK if we can get one that looks nice, thanks!

Jayne, so are you saying rather than have a chimney style hood, have a cabinet above the hood, w/a depth of say, 18" (slightly deeper than the uppers at 12" & 15") & shelves that are very shallow (4" maybe)? That's definitely something to think about, thanks!

I need to talk to my KD but she's not available until this afternoon...

I got a call from the contractor and they're on a "stop work order" until this issue is resolved. The electrician was supposed to be out this week to begin wiring for the lights, etc., but he's been put on hold along with everyone else.

I also had to "put my foot down"...apparently someone complained that my DH was in the construction area too much yesterday. DH says they kept asking him about the issues and that's why he was there... The supervisor's reply was that if there are any issues or decisions to be made they will make them b/c they have years of experience in building kitchens. That's where I basically said, no, it's my house & my kitchen and that I worked many months on this design and everything is the way it is for a reason. If anything is to change b/c of a problem, I want to be in on the decision-making process. I told him I'm the one who has to live with whatever changes are made...that he and his people will finish and be gone...but I live here!

He then said we follow the design, I replied that he had already deviated from the design and that while I was not happy about it, I could live with it.

I'm probably now labeled the "difficult customer"....but I want my kitchen to match my vision and design! I'm willing to work out solutions, but I don't want someone else making decisions w/o my input!

But I digress...thanks again everyone!!!! Please, keep the ideas coming!!!

Oh boy!

Sweeby's 4x10 sounds like it might be a possibility, but if that doesn't work, could you create a faux beam across to cover the duct that would stick out? Maybe another just to balance it and make it look like it should be there? Can't remember the look of your kitchen, but a beam or two will work into a lot of traditional kitchens.

Kudos for putting your foot down! I knew more about my kitchen than anyone working on it and while we had issues to solve like you have, the problems or disappointments were thigns they did with out my input. I thought I would get my bathroom repainted while they were working on my kitchen. Wrong! I was always in here answering questions or giving directions, etc. Hang in there, and good luck.

Buehl, good for you. And can I just say that this kind of behaviour horrifies me?! In fact, my GC and I had a LONG chat yesterday about things like this - he said it burns HIM when GCs do that. There are ALWAYS multiple ways to skin an installation cat - especially when resolving unforeseen problems - and that in his opinion it's the builder's job to work with the customer to find the mutually satisfactory resolution, NOT just to plough ahead (likely leading to complaints and redos as the customer says, "Uh - no, not what we wanted - fix it")

Good luck with all this!

oh boy. You're right to put your foot down. this is your space and you should know everything that is happening there.

As much as it killed me last week when I wasn't feeling good, I am happy that if something comes up my guys stop and give me a holler until I make a decision. There are many times where they could go one of 5 ways and all choices are acceptable decision to THEM, but there may be one perfect choice for ME. It's not their job *unless you want it to be* for them to decide things that could effect your kitchen.

I'm just sad that they didn't have this all coordinated better before work started. sigh...

oh and if you're keeping track, I asked my guy about the hood and he said whatever we have they cut the holes for later on when they have the vent. So he said they're on top of it - they know what's going in but they don't do that stuff till later. Okey dokey.

Often when a vent fan recommends a vent pipe of a certain size, e.g. 8", you can substitute a different size pipe as long as the cross sectional area is roughly the same.

My vent fan specifies a 7" diameter duct minimum, which is about 38.5 sq inches. So I was able to use a 3.25 x 14 inch rectangular duct and to run it up to the ceiling completely inside the 2x4 framed wall. Although I will admit that finding turns and elbows and fittings for the rectangular duct was not easy.

Oh good BuffetGirl! It sounds like you'll get your external hood! Still working on mine :-(

I talked to the contractor briefly about going through the roof and he said they would not do it b/c if the roof leaks later than they're responsible for it, so their policy is to not break into roofs. If that's the case, then maybe it could make a turn in the attic and go to the outside wall...but then the run will be very long...not a good idea, I know.

Thanks Bob. My KD considered a 7" x 10", but 7" is still too deep. The joists are also only 12" apart in this location b/c the oversized tub in the master bath is above it.

I am a bit lost on where some of the obstables and turns are also, but if you have 6"x12", you have more than enough space to get the same volume as an 8" round duct. Is there a route to run it? If so, you can get the duct made by a sheet metal shop. It shouldn't be that expensive, and I know my KD had a sheet metal shop they used for lots of special projects.

I'm not exactly sure that I was suggesting the same thing you are describing but it sounds like you are starting to think about other things that might work for you. I don't think I realized that you had a chimney style hood. You might have more options with a shell kind of hood (and there are VAH liners for many of these.) You might be able to conceal more ducting behind panels and neighboring cabinets that way.

jayne

Here is a link that might be useful: type of hood style that might work

Not sure which style of Vent-A-Hood you picked, but VAH has some styles that can vent either through the back or through the top. You might want to check out other VAH options. Is there anyway to vent out the back instead of through the top?

I have re-written this email about 10 times already tying to come up with a solution for you. I looked at your photos of the kitchen layout. Doesn't the vent hood have a stainess cover that hides the exhaust pipe? How deep is that off of the back wall? It appears to be rectangular but there aren't any measuements.

The waste pipe looks like it is right up against OSB. I would imagine the OSB is 1/2" thick, like the sheetrock. The horizontal waste pipe should be about 4-4.5" thick. Not sure this would work but why not use 8" oval pipe for the exhaust. Even if there is a round 8" hole for the exhanust you can either use an 8" round to oval adapter or just form the one end of the oval pipe into a round shape and the other side will be oval.

This pipe is only 3.5" thick (same as that HVAC duct). This would then give you a total thickness of around 7.5 - 8" off of the wall to clear the waste pipe. I would imagine that the vent trim on the hood should be at least that deep if not deeper. Then you don't need any offsets to get around that waste pipe. You then would do an oval 90 degree to put you inside the joist bay and then run it to the point that you would be inside the back wall of the master bedroom closet. Put another 90 and install oval pipe inside the rear wall of the master bedroom closet to not loose any space and then right up to the attic and out the roof.

I am not sure how the sofit deal will look on either side of the hood. You could do a built in range hood, which would total hide everyhting and then you easily miss the waste pipe. Also the idea of cutting away a big chuck of the back of the cabinets to run the pipe through doesn't sound ideal either and no idea of what that will do structuraly to the cabinet.

Besides furring out the ceiling, the other option is to fur out this back wall. . Rip out all of the sheetrock and install a 2x6 studs directly in front of the existing studs. This will hide all of the plumbing, eliminate any need for the sofit at all and have the exact look that you show in your drawings. The only thing you loose is 5.5" in depth, so then you would just need to reduce the size of your 24" cabinets that jut out into the room on your layout. You would then gain back the space that you would have lost to the waste pipe in the upper cabinets. So overall you probaly would gain space rather than actualy loose any space. It also appears that there is a vent pipe or another drain pipe that ties into that horizonal run that protrudes even further into the room. The furred wall may cover that or you may need to rework this section of plumbing to try and move it closer to the wall.

Personally this is what I would do to have a perfectly flat back wall without any protrusions to worry about.

No resolution yet on the vent hood. I called my KD and basically told her we don't want a recirculating hood and I described some of the options presented here. She told me she was meeting with other designers tonight to try to figure out what to do...she hasn't called back yet, so I assume they haven't figured it out yet. She did mention that there needs to be at least 12" b/w turns and a couple of other issues that I can't remember right now (I'm tired!)

I want to thank you all for your creative ideas. I just hope we can come to some resolution w/a ducted hood!

Todds...I actually considered bringing out the wall but that would necessitate re-ordering cabinets, etc...something that we cannot afford to do...we're at the limit of our budget now! However, I will keep it in mind as a last resort...

I need sleep, but I wanted to let you all know that I haven't been ignoring you...my DS had a concert tonight (Jazz Band) so I've been out-of-touch.

Buehl - I hope they come up with something today. This isn't fair at this stage of the game.

In the end, just remember, it's ONLY a hood. In the grand scheme of things, it's only a hood. And then use my motto:

breathe in....breathe out....move on.

Buehl,
I feel for you - and tried following the twists and turns in this thread -

My thoughts-
1. If KD signed off on the orig specs for the ordered hood then KD is responsible for fixing the mistake - if GC signed then GC is respn
2. That said, what is "best" solution - I see lot's of renderings above & I'm no expert so won't even try to determine what is "best" - Given your efforts in design - I'm glad to see you will not cave to recirc option - that is not an option.
3. I would seriously consider having an HVAC engineer offer a consult here - I can't imagine the cost would be that great and think your problem warrants a weigh in from the experts - GC's & KD's are not HVAC experts - they want the quickest solution to make the problem go away - You are likely spending a fortune on this remodel & want ventilation that will work! Not "fit" which may be what you are getting led into -
4. I have seen remodels where this issue has come up - the last one the GC's crew came up with a creative solution to run the ducting through a childs bedroom, creating a built in storage bench on one wall - that the duct was housed in - creative, looked fine .
So, don't settle for the attempt of moving the project along - every twist & turn in the ducting will diminish the effectiveness of the hood

I hope you had a discussion w/the GC about his supervisors presentation - that is just not acceptable

Good luck - breathe in, breathe out - PUSH on the owners of the problem! ;)

buehl--If you went straight up with the vent--into the master bedroom, I'm assuming that it would be next to a wall in the bedroom. Would this then be an 'opportunity' to add architectural interest to the bedroom. Like boxing it in and calling it a 'column' and adding some crown moulding, etc.? Or is straight up into the BR land you in a doorway into the BR or something like that?

I agree with jejvtr to bring in an HVAC to take a look.

As far as furring out the wall, it may be possible that they can rip studs down smaller than 5.5" as well. Don't know what the walk space would be if you lost 5.5" when walking from the dining table into the kitchen. Maybe that would work? Then you wouldn't have to change anything with the cabinets.

Buehl: I also had some venting issues with my remodel, though in the end we opted for the "simple" solution--straight up, only I have a vaulted ceiling so I had to change my vision of what I wanted my kitchen to look like. In the GCs defense, I will say until a house is opened up, no one really knows what type of problems they will encounter so I don't feel it is fair to just figure it is his problem to fix it and/or absorb added costs. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised, though, that the KD allowed cabinets to be ordered without opening up the walls and making these "assumptions." You can use this to your advantage, if perhaps, you now need a hood cabinet to route ducting through. I'm a bit bothered though by the attitude you feel you are now hanging around too much and are a difficult customer. I would definitely consult with a VAH expert. In my case, I worked through my appliance salesperson who knew of different hoods and then they had VAH call me directly to discuss my options--at one point we were considering a custom hood so there are lots of options there--as long as you have the time and money to do it right. What they told me is not to do 90 degree angles and even 45 degree elbows reduce efficiency by about 50 percent, though my GC would routinely put them in that way. What I would not want to see happen is you pay for expensive ductwork and then have the hood not opperate efficiently--might as well just get a good quality recirculating vent then. The HVAC plan and selection of the actual hood with CFM's need to be reevaluated at this point. There are other options with attic blowers, etc. and/or increasing the CFMs. I know this is difficult but you need to make sure you know all your options, any added costs as well as a guarantee from someone that the hood will operate efficiently before moving forward on this plan.

We had a related (and worse) issue than this when we put in a new furnace--it did not fit as planned for the return air duct below the furnace and they wanted to take out the bottom 1/3 of my one and only hall closet for it and then move my subfloor access to my DD's room. I just told them no it was not acceptable and so we came up with another solution. I was not too happy about that one either, but in the end it was the lessor of two evils (adding two rectangular ducts in the wall).

Good luck with all this.

Whenever a doctor gives me bad news, which is fortunately rare, I get a second opinion. Say to your GC, with all due respect, I want a second opinion, and get it first without your GC present, so it is truly independent. If the opinion is different, then arrange for the second opinion giver to have a chat with your GC. I would insist on ouside venting. Inside is not an option, unless you just boil water for a cup of tea occasionally.

When we finalized our design & plans, it was understood that we might have an issue w/venting, depending on what was found once the walls & ceiling were opened. What no one anticipated, though, was that it would be this difficult. Everyone expected "standard" things such as the distance b/w ceiling & 2nd floor, etc. It's the non-standard stuff that's caused these problems...the fault of the original builder.

I agree that it's not the GC's or KD's fault and that they should be expected to solve it on their own...BUT, I do expect them to work with me to find a solution I can live with. My KD first told me I had no options...when I objected and said there has to be a way, she wasn't too receptive. She even told me she had gone over every option with other designers w/o my husband or me. That was part of my objection...I feel/think that my DH and I should be involved in this. Unfortunately, she hasn't been totally on board with that...

I still have not heard from her and today is the second day with no work being done...so while we had a great first 2 days and an OK third, we're now at a standstill until this is resolved. The contractor will not do anything more until we resolve this issue. In his defense, we're at the point that we probably shouldn't do anything more since a change may impact flooring, electrical, etc.

On a positive note, the county's plumbing inspector stopped by yesterday and passed us... So while the KD & contractor weren't working, the county was!

IF we can get them to agree to go through the roof, the vent will go through our closet and use whatever is needed for an 8" in diameter vent plus framing out (a 14" x 14" square maybe???)

I will broach the idea of an HVAC consultation w/my DH this evening, but he's already stressed even more than I am about the amount of $$$ we're spending on this remodel! But, I will emphasize to him that we don't want to spend all this $$$ and not get what we want! I'm hoping that will get through to him!

Can't offer any advice here except to reiterate that in the end, the hood needs to work properly or there is no point in whatever convolutions you, the KD, or the GC go through to get it in. I second the vote to get an expert in to assess the options and recommend CFM/ducting/etc. options. They deal with issues like this all the time and I guarantee, they've seen stranger setups and worked around them successfully.

I am far more concerned about the notion that you or your DH are not welcome to be present and observing during the work. It's one thing if they are saying "please don't stand in front of the guy with the nail gun while he's firing it" -- quite another to suggest you should not be observing the work as it progresses. I work from home, and went down -- literally -- every 5-10 minutes to watch our renovation. I often stood there, watching, for long periods, sometimes chatting, sometimes just watching. I asked questions (why is this here, what is that for, how are you going to deal with that?) ALL the time. And only because I was watching did we catch things like #12 or #14 electrical wire when the cable lighting manufacturer required #6 or #8 (required a phone call to the manufacturer, then putting the electrical sub on the line with them, to convince him of the need for that ... I had to ask the manufacturer rep "what would happen if he uses the #14 he wants to" and the response "your house will probably burn down within two weeks" -- I just asked him to please repeat that to the sub. Did the trick. We found we had to do that a lot: check and double check, research ourselves, read the installation instructions OURSELVES so we'd know if things were being done properly (we got the wrong size duct -- and hole in our roof -- at first, because he read the instructions for a 600 CFM hood, and we had a 1,200 CFM hood... his response: "Dang it! Why do they put all the instructions in one book!" (the 600 CFM instructions came FIRST in the book... he just read them, then figured he was all set and cut the hole... my husband came home that night, looked at the hole in the roof, said ummm... let's check that.... and voila, WAY too small!)

(Ditto for the Miele -- how DARE those uppity Europeans put so many different languages into ONE installation manual! It's just not FAIR! :) (I even went so far as to offer to get a Miele installer out, once it was apparent my GC had never seen a Miele before ... he said "heck no, ya' seen one dishwasher, ya' seen 'em all, they're all the same...!" and proceeded to install the bottom strip backwards...)

Bottom line: you need to know what they've done, how they did it, where they made changes (you might have to deal with the effects/consequences in your wall later on, either because you have a problem down the road or because you want to do something further). You have every right to watch what they are doing. It's your money, they work for you, you call the shots. A good contractor with competent subs should never object to being observed OR to being questioned about how something is being done and why, IMHO. I hate to think what we'd have ended up with (besides a house in cinders) had we not watched every move our guys made!

I know you said its not the GC or KD fault. However, if they did their due dilligence there are things that could/should have been discovered from the onset.

Without knowing what could be in the walls or ceiling, the KD should not have ordered any cabinets prior to doing a more extensive search or demo of the room to ensure the design would work. Regadless of whether you "finalized" your design or not. That design is based on the fact that there are no obstructions on the wall preventing you from installing those tall cabinets to the ceiling. It was also predicated on that style range hood as well.

You said above that you were aware that there may be venting issues so this should have prompted the KD to say that we need to see what is in the walls before actually ordering the cabinets. It also isn't just a range hood venting issue. The bigger issue I see is the horizonal waste line running across the back wall. Cutting a chunk out of the tall cabinets to run the waste pipe through them is not what I call a solution and obviously wasn't dicussed when the plans were "finalized" since the KD has now proposed this solution after the fact as well as adding a small soffit to cover this waste pipe in the exposed areas.

FYI, If they did cut a sizable hole in the soft, prior to ordering any cabinets, etc. One should have seen the horizontal plumbing running across the wall where you want to put your range hood and wall cabinets. Typically the ceiling inside of the sofit isn't sheetrocked so then they should have noticed the smaller joists as well, especially since you said the original plan was to vent through the joist bay and not through your closet above. The GC could have also went in the basement below and measured off of the outside walls to see if there was any plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc runing up the wall, in the cavity where the range hood would go.

Todds....we did know about the waste pipe... My KD told me we could either:

(1) keep the original soffit OR

(2) move the waste pipe...which would have been very expensive as it's the main waste pipe for the entire 2nd floor of the house and would involve rerouting the waste pipes for both upstairs bathrooms (2 tubs, 1 shower, 3 sinks). OR

(3) put in "mini-soffits" and run the waste pipe behind the upper cabinets. It's actually the reason the outer cabinets are taller than the inner rather than the other way around.

The decision to go with #3 was a compromise b/w my design vision and our budget. My DH was already stressing about $$$. (He had unrealistic expectations about what things cost today...this has been a real eye-opener for him!)

My DH and I have now proposed moving the MBA tub's waste pipe and our KD will have the plumber out Monday to check it out and give us an estimate. (It's the one in the second picture.) If this pans out, there's a very good chance we will be able to switch to a 6" x 9" pipe and be able to vent outside rather than recirculate.

On the bright side, that waste pipe freezes at least 2 or 3 times each winter, so maybe by moving it and adding add'l insulation, we can fix that problem!

So glad you have a plan of action. It seems to me that, when a problem is looming, the most difficult time is when I'm trying frantically to come up with a solution. Once I've hit upon a solution, even if it's not exactly what I first wanted, I feel much better.

I hope that's true for you, too, and that this doesn't cause you too much anxiety over the weekend. Mostly I hope you're able to proceed as you described and get on to more fun aspects of the project.

Beuhl, I've been watching your problem posts but haven't posted b/c I haven't come up with any good solutions for you!

Having just read that the waste pipe has frozen in the past, I really think that moving it will be a very good decision for both your kitchen and your entire house in the long term. Not good for the budget for sure, but the security that it won't freeze again would be more than enough reason to justify it. Can you imagine what a huge disaster it would be if it froze and cracked? EGADS! That would be terrible!!!!

Buehl,

My first thought was to move the waste pipe. But there also has to be some reason of why the plumber had run the piping to cross over the joist bay and then go down the current bay. Otherwise he could have just run down the bay, that the tub's P rap is currently and that would have been 1 bay to the left of where you want to put the vent.

I am thinking that it has to pick up some other waste line along the way, like the bathroom sink or just a vent line. You don't have a pic of that entire joist cavity so I can't tell. I believe you need a vent within like 6' of the trap so that it why I think there would a connection along the way before it connects into the horizontal stack.