Where do you live, do you have access to water or will you have to dig wells or bury a pipe field? All of this will affect the price. As to having to rip out your ducts, Geothermal units can heat through your existing duct system. If the ducts are sized properly. You are talking about a heat pump that uses water as a heat exchange medium rather than air. These systems can be very efficient. 30 EER and 5 COP. Some states have programs to help offset the cost of installing super high efficiency HVAC system.

Good luck,

We live in Easter PA...not sure about the water situation. Any Ballpark figure on what a heat pump to geo solution would cost. Are talking over $5K, $10K....who would I even call for an estimate?

Bonanza's making all the right points.

For a conventional geothermal heat pump there are closed loops and open loops. Closed loops typically require the removal and replacement of many, many yards of soil to lay pipe which then provides the heat exchange. These can work very well but can be problematic if there is a leak. They may also run out into a body of water, which might be much cheaper, or even down into wells. Open loops draw water from some convenient source and then discharge it. It is usually not permitted to send it into the sewers, so a discharge well or sump will be required. The cost of pumping water from a well can be substantial or very modest, or even, in the case of an artesian well, nonexistent.

It's hard to say what it might cost, because installations vary so much. I paid less than $10,000 for my Climatemaster Tranquility 27, installed, but I did a lot of the work- it could easily have gone to $12,000, I guess. I also needed a well, and have $4400.00 in that. The well will probably pay for itself as much in reduced irrigation costs as in geothermal supply.

I'm sorry not to be able to speak more fully to your question, but my experience is very limited. Perhaps if you combine what I've learned with several others you'll get a fuller picture.

Good luck,

Mark

Andrelaplume2,

The price (unfortunately) will depend on where you live and to a great extent on the contractor providing the bid. I live in South East PA and I have been quoted $12,500 for the installation a ClimateMaster Traquility 27 (64,000 BTU, two stage) system. The well driller will charge another $9,600 to lay down two to three vertical loops of a total length of 750 ft. These costs are very typical of where I live.

I also received a quote for HydroDelta heat pump (same size as above) and it is $1000 more.
If you neen additional information, let me know.

Regards,

VK

Re: andrelaplume2

Yes you should consider geothermal. You probably wonÂt have to replace all your ducts. They may have to be modified to possibly handle a larger volume of air. Your contractor will advise you on that as well as the price for the entire installation. Find an IGSHPA accredited installer in your area. See the link below.

Re: Mark

Any system that leaks is a problem. Any geo-exchange loop that is PROPERLY fused & installed and undisturbed will NEVER leak. I know never is a long time, so letÂs just say 3 generations after the original owner is dead. Calculated out over a 20-year period, a closed loop system will usually be the cheapest way to go.

Re: jvk in pa

The system youÂve been quoted on is a nominal 5-ton unit @ 150ft/ton loop. Watch your ground temperatures; verify that this enough loop length per ton or else you may be running more aux heat than was estimated. Having said that, youÂre probably OK Â just double check before signing; call the manufacturer of the GHP.

SR

Here is a link that might be useful: International Ground Source Heat Pump Association (IGSHPA)

Andreplume2,
I forgot to mention that my home is about 17 years old. I am getting a geothemal system to get away from using propane.

SR,
Thanks for your input.

150ft/ton is what installers use in this part of the US. ClimateMaster also runs their GeoDesign calculations based on the energy load for the house. They estimated a length of 680 ft - so I guess 750ft would be adequate. The installer had suggested 850ft to get a higher efficiency but an additional 100 ft would become very expensive.

Regards,

VK

I would be cautious about retrofitting to a geothermal system using the same heating ducts you used for a combustion furnace.

Combustion furnaces (oil, natural gas, propane) generate higher air temperatures in the heat exchanger than a geothermal or air-to-air heat pump can. That means you'll have to move a lot more air through the ducts to deliver the same amount of heat. This requires either larger ducts or higher air velocities. From what I've read, a conversion to heat pump that uses the smaller ducts that worked fine with the old combustion furnace is not a good idea. It results in a drafty, noisy heating system. By the time the heated air from a geothermal unit reaches your registers, it may be so "cool" that it feels like a cold draft to your skin. Think of it this way -- air at 80F actually "heats" your home even though it will feel cold to your skin, which has a temperature of ~ 91F.

We have a geothermal unit and love it for both comfort and efficiency, but the ducts were designed for the higher volumes of air needed when heating with a heat pump.

Java

Hello all. Just an observation or two-

Re SR's note:

>>Re: Mark

Any system that leaks is a problem. Any geo-exchange loop that is PROPERLY fused & installed and undisturbed will NEVER leak. I know never is a long time, so letÂs just say 3 generations after the original owner is dead. Calculated out over a 20-year period, a closed loop system will usually be the cheapest way to go.It goes without saying that properly done the system won't leak. It needed, nonetheless, to be mentioned that in the real world it doesn't always work that way. There have been discussions here about such things, and I'm aware of one or two in my neighborhood.At the very least I'd suggest documenting each joint in the closed loop, so that it may be more easily located if issues develop!

>>From what I've read, a conversion to heat pump that uses the smaller ducts that worked fine with the old combustion furnace is not a good idea. It results in a drafty, noisy heating system.This has not been our experience, but it may be the case in different applications. Perhaps our ducts are relatively large. One thing for sure- they're old! I will say that our heatpump is quieter and less drafty, with lower swings in the temperature, than the gas forced air furnace it replaced. The old GE pumped out quite the hot blast, but in spite of its efforts the house dropped down quite a bit before it came on. Probably could have mitigated that with better thermostat placement, I don't know. Quite a few dead spots, too. This is not to disagree or argue, but to flesh out the picture with varied experience.

I'll mention again that our vents are centrally located, rather than arranged around the perimeter of the house. Our installer warned us that this wasn't optimal, but it's working well. We do have a few cold spots around the edges- not an issue to us at this time. Check back with me in 20 years when I'm pushing 80 ...

Best, and a good weekend to all,

Mark

Re: Mark

Even if you document each joint, howÂs that going to help you if the defective joint is at the bottom of a borehole? What you need to document is that the installer doing the fusion joints (and it better be fusion joints!) is properly trained and certified. That the joints are inspected and that the whole system is PROPERLY pressure tested before it gets buried. That and a proper log of ALL the procedures with measured results recorded and signed by the installer is what are needed. If it leaks after that it should be the installerÂs problem.

BTW: Our house too was a retrofit from fossil fuel furnace and the ductwork is fine, with minor modifications.

Thanks for the good holiday wishes. Likewise to you too and anyone else reading these posts.

SR

Well, if the install is say $21K all together, It would be hard for me to expect to recoup 15K even over the next 20 years.

Andrea-

It might very well go to $21K, and I have to agree that it's hard to imagine recouping the $15K rapidly enough to make it economical if that were the case. It might also cost less; the only way to find out is to get a bid.

Good Luck with it- I hope you'll let us know what you learn.

Best,

M

Your present thinking will lead you to not install geothermal; that is certain and more is the pity. You can always and in every situation come up with reasons not to do geothermal, that is also certain.

Look at it from a different point of view, purely as an investment, just as you would any other investment. Will the annual energy savings be greater than what you could annually earn on your money elsewhere; will you have your principal returned when you cash out?
Also keep in mind, we pay tax on money earned  not money saved!

SR

fsq4cw, not everyone can go completely eco friendly. for example, i could invest over 137k in a solar array to provide HALF the power needed for my house. this would only give my house an increase of 90k in appraised value and save me roughly 200.00 a month in electric charges. that means that it would NEVER pay for itself. the same thing for andrea and a geo system, if it is too much it just does not pay to do it.

i do plan to put in solar in a few years though, as soon as the prices drop enough to make it cost effective. who knows, when my second HVAC system needs to be replaced i may even look into geo for it, though there is not anyone in the area who does it.

I argued this point here last year and it looks like IÂm doing it again. To install a geothermal system for my new home would have cost double the price for my traditional electric heat pumps with fossil fuel back up. I dug into this option for more then 18 months and it just didnÂt make any financial sense.

If I financed the additional costs of the geothermal system, even after my (questionable) energy savings, my monthly expenses would have increased, not decreased. Going with geothermal might, (and I stress might) save energy but it wont save you money.

If anyone attended the annual "Building Science Symposium" in Westford Mass. a just a few weeks ago, you would have also heard Geothermal didnÂt get rave reviews there either. I was at that symposium and so was over 300 of the best Engineers, Architects, Scientists, Builders and Building Science people from around the country and the world. If you think Geothermal is this fantastic system to save energy and save money, I suggest you try to speak at next years Symposium. I would have some better ammunition to try and sell geothermal to the real experts however. They will eat you alive.

Geothermal has been around for decades. If these systems saved energy and the bottom line MONEY, the residential geothermal market share would be far larger then the paltry -1% market share that geothermal currently has.

Engineers have always been some of the biggest skeptics; scientists canÂt agree on ÂGlobal WarmingÂ.
Geothermal is and will continue to grow saving energy and money for those that embrace it despite the Flat Earth nay-sayers. It may not be appropriate in every instance, but where it is it has proven better by far.

Like geothermal, the electric car has also been around for years even though it presently represents a miniscule percentage of cars on the road today, these are the directions weÂre headed in (electric, hybrid and plug-in electric hybrids as well as geothermal space-conditioning) as energy becomes scarcer, more expensive and near zero emissions demanded.

IMO

SR

Here is a link that might be useful: An electric car site

You should know those Scientists, Engineers, Architects and Building Science people that you call "Flat Earth nay-sayers" are the biggest bunch of tree hugging environmentalists that you will ever find under one roof. If you can show them that geothermal is this great option, they would worship you as a God. I will be at next yearÂs Building Science Symposium again. Shall I put you in contact with the right person so you can speak?

YouÂre also using a $100,000.00 electric car to support your position to using geothermal?????? My god man, lay off the kool-aid because thatÂs absurd. Financially, that car is far worse of an energy investment then even geothermal!!!!!

If you are going to push this ideology onto people who are seeking honest information, start with some honesty. Like geothermal is a great option if money is no concern. If money is an issue (and it usually is) then geothermal is a poor option for most people.

"Caveat emptor" or in English "let the buyer beware".

Geothermal is always great for the next owner of the home as the original owner rarely re-coops the $20,000 investment in geo.

Perhaps in addition to the Building Science Symposium, you and other skeptics should consider the Geothermal Technical Conference and Expo 2007, Oct. 29th  30th in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. If this is Âjunk scienceÂ, perhaps you could show this group of professional engineers, architects, building science people and scientists the error of their ways. IÂm sure youÂll be warmly received.

Obviously there will be no agreement here, so perhaps we should just respectfully agree to disagree.

SR

Here is a link that might be useful: For those on a budget...

I think the bottom line is we all can only afford so much. We all would also like to be a *green* as possible. If I were building and needed to drill a well anyway, geo might be a cheaper prospect than retrofiting a 20 year old colonial for $20K....yes I'd save each month and be greener but that fact is I likely would not recoup the cost unless I lived here forever. Also, no one is going to pay 20K extra down the road for the home, but yes, whoever buys the home would likely be happy to have the geo system. Also, if payback were 20 years or something, what are the odds the system will last that long and not need a replacement?

If these are serious systems, then the price has to come down.

fsq4cw:

The Building Science Symposium reviews building materials, building systems, material and system manufacturing, moisture control, building types, construction methods, etc. etc. etc. That symposium is not slanted in any direction except the best way to design and build buildings. Do you honestly think anyone at the Geo Conference will admit that geothermal for the residential application is usually a poor financial decision??? No offense but I seriously doubt it.

For some reason you want to avoid the real issue. I have never heard anyone say that geothermal is "junk science", nor have I stated its junk science. Nobody is skeptical about geothermal doing the job itÂs designed to do. The only issue about geothermal is this; "for the vast majority of homeowners itÂs a poor financial decision".

Understanding that itÂs a poor financial decision, I canÂt agree to respectfully disagree. Giving myopic information could end up costing some unsuspecting homeowner a ton of money when they are counting on saving money.

I make my living as a builder and real estate investor so I have zero vested interests in pushing my views either way about geothermal. You wouldnÂt happen to be in the geothermal business in anyway would you SR?

I am in the process of putting in my own geothermal system, because I believe in the technology and the benefits, but not in the upfront costs. I had 6 quotes for a four ton system with a horizontal loop, all between $25k and $33k.

I am buying my premium geothermal heat pump (2-stage, R410A, ECM fan), pumps, loop pipe, storage water heater, thermostat, electrical etc. for $10k. I have a company doing the ductwork for $1500 and the excavator was out yesterday for $1000. The cost to do this myself is less than half of their quotes. The government in Ontario currently has rebates going on that will amount to $7300, so my net cost is about $5500.

The industry does need to change if it wants this technology to become widely used. The heat pumps are overpriced (they should be cheaper than standard air to air heat pumps) and the installers are after the wealthy, high profit customers. As soon as the government rebates were announced the price went up the same amount.

Just my thoughts. I've researched it to death, and I am glad I am doing it, but I am doing it despite the industry's attempts to make it unaffordable.

andre

What type of insulation package do you have in your 20 year old colonial? Is it 2x4 with batt insulation or 2x6 with cellulose?

The GT systems are great - I had a very large system recently installed. However - the GT systems do have limits and I would worry about using one in a house that was not well insulated (not saying yours isn't - but a lot has changed in 20 years).

The other thing to realize is that while the GT pump cost part of the equation can estimated fairly well- the outside work for the loops or the wells are site and loctaion dependent and have a huge impact on the final cost. My GC estimated that the pit for my loop system would be under $5,000 - we weren't even close. Boulders - boulders - and more boulders (andf I am talking about small asteroid size boulders) drive the price way up). Wells might have been a little cheaper - but not much.

So be cautious. The GT thing is wonderful, but it might not be right for you. There is more to it than the pumps and the loops - you need to have a well insulated house to realize the cost savings that are quoted for these systems.

Best of luck

I am buying my premium geothermal heat pump (2-stage, R410A, ECM fan), pumps, loop pipe, storage water heater, thermostat, electrical etc. for $10k. I have a company doing the ductwork for $1500 and the excavator was out yesterday for $1000. The cost to do this myself is less than half of their quotes. The government in Ontario currently has rebates going on that will amount to $7300, so my net cost is about $5500.

out of curiosity, what manufacturer are you going with and what are all the rebates? I thought there was only about $5000-$5400 in rebates available.

Armstrr

The Federal Govt is offering a $3500 rebate if you do an energy audit on your house. The provincial govt matches this and also provides $150 towards the energy audit. There is also a PST grant in Ontario worth about 3% of the cost of the installation.

I purchased the unit from Boreal Geothermal in Quebec, but they are manufactured by another company. They offered a lot of help, and are even coming out to my house in Southern Ontario to help start it up!

Send me an email and I will send you the details about the unit I purchased and give you some contact information.

Here is a link that might be useful: Eco Energy Grant

I believe I have 2X4 w/bats insulation.

You might also consider going with an air-source heat pump which is basically a reverse-cycle air conditioner, it will heat as well as cool your house. They are a lot cheaper than geo if that's not a possibility for you, yet still take advantage of 'free' heat outside, however, in most colder climates it's not a replacement for fossil heat nor will it work as well as geo but will work well down to lower temps (just below freezing if I recall correctly)

That's how I plan to go since I don't have the readies to go geo (I suspect wells/verticals are cheaper for most if you don't have the room for trenches) and here in my part of BC a significant amount of the heating season will suit a heat pump, we should be able to cut our gas use a lot, and electricity here is relatively cheap.

That, plus the fact that I have no a/c here and it's a significant help for resale to have it, and my furnace is relatively new but only 80-85% efficient, make a heat pump a good option for me, as my research so far suggests