I'm doing my own design right now as well. My thought is, if this kitchen works for you, then stick with it. If you are planning on selling the house, then you might want to consider her ideas. How many more designers are you looking at using? Perhaps they will agree with you- besides, if you spend a lot of time in your kitchen it really needs to work for what you like.
Good luck- this can be such a frustrating thing!

How big is your kitchen? The trend I have noticed in big kitchens is multiple work triangles, such as one that includes the fridge, prep sink and oven and leaves the clean up sink on its own. Or maybe a baking triangle would have the fridge, rolling out counter and oven in it. I think this all depends on the size of your kitchen and the number of cooks planning on using it. If your current kitchen has good flow and works for you, you should keep it. You could post your current layout and let the gurus here have a look and get their opinion.

I have found that each designer, whether ID, KD or cabinet designer, has had a different vision about how my kitchen should look based on their personal and professional biases. For instance, one thought that I should move the fridge because it shouldn't be the biggest thing one sees from the FR, never mind that it would be the biggest thing company saw moments after they enter the front door. And never mind that its current location is ideally suited to how we live and use our kitchen. I've taken all their comments and sifted through them, incorporating those that fit for us and discarding those that don't.

You've only just begin. Interview the rest and then think about what they all have to offer as it relates to how you live and use your kitchen before making any decisions. Give yourself time to consider the suggestions, too, because what seems like a wacky idea at first glance might grow on you as you consider the possibilities, especially if it's an idea you've never considered before.

Work triangle or zones? This could easily be nothing more than an exercise in semantics if one works for you and the other doesn't. In other words, don't worry about labels, look at how your kitchen should function.

I'm curious: did the KD ask you about how you cook and use your kitchen? You said you like the way your kitchen works but it almost sounds as if she didn't take this into consideration. If that's the case, I'd say that's a strike against this KD. If she didn't ask you about your budget but went ahead and recommended costly changes to your kitchen, well, that's another strike. I hope you find a KD that listens to you, helps you work within your budget and guides you towards a great kitchen.

Since you said "prospective" and you're not attached, I think I won't offend. (It's just business, I don't mean it as rudeness.) Why don't you keep your work triangle and redo your kitchen designer?

This KD is trying to bully and intimidate you. If she was just trying to upsell you, and were any good at it, she'd have painted a beautiful picture of how she could make your kitchen much more functional by rearranging it, and make you buy into it. You should be feeling excited and impressed, not confused and worried.

If there's only one cook in a kitchen, and if there aren't a whole lot of alternative appliances, a good work triangle is essential!! In a larger kitchen, one adds extras that make for interesting, overlapping, multiple work triangles. If there are always multiple cooks, these shouldn't overlap. And all kitchens can benefit from well planned zones, but the walking path is still the most important thing. A big reason for my own remodel was to close up a triangle that was way too big. And I've added a prep sink and fridge drawers to make even the new triangle smaller.

Kitchen work flow goes in segments that you can chart: Fridge/sink/prep surface/stove/(maybe oven to finish)/table/wraps & containers/fridge/sink, Pantry+fridge/mixer/baking surface/oven/cooling/wraps & containers/pantry, freezer or counter/sink, pantry+fridge/sink/assembly surface/oven/table/wraps & containers/fridge/sink. Etc. That's beef stew, cookies, lasagna. You can chart workflows for everything you make. And what a workflow doesn't take into account is a trip from the stove to the fridge, while you're browning, to get the leftover wine, or from the baking surface to the sink to rinse your hands, etc. That's where the triangles really become crucial.

In charting workflow, if you account for all the steps, you'll find where you'll need a convenient work surface within your triangle, where it's most convenient to keep your knives, and your packaging materials.

But most of all, if your kitchen really works well for you, as you have it laid out, it's worth going through the planning process to see if there's anything you can make even better, but you shouldn't be being assaulted by people who want you to change for the sake of their own ideas.

But also do keep your mind open to suggestions that might actually be good ideas. I didn't want to mess with my windows, but every contractor and cabinetmaker that came into my kitchen said that what I had looked like a mistake, and that the windows were worn out. So I put the question to the cumulative wisdom here, and they all said, yes, change the windows. So I listened. It caused a few other problems, and I did lose a sunbeam I was fond of, but in the end it's worth it and was the right thing to do.

Yep! I do indeed think I need to find a new designer.

I was planning on talking to a few before deciding on one anyways.

My kitchen is 20 by 17 feet.

I have 4 and a half foot isles around my center island.

The sink and stove and fridge are all on one side of the kitchen, and we have no problems with the configuration.

This designer also said that she was "sure" that we must bump into each other when someone uses the fridge while someone else is using the stove. Actually, we have never had that problem. The isle is huge and the fridge is not directly behind where someone works at the stove; it is to the side.

Time to keep looking.

Because your kitchen is so large, it probably could benefit from zones instead of the classic triangle. Even though it functions well now, it would be a shame to miss the opportunity to make it even better when you remodel. I'm not suggesting you stick with the same KD; she clearly made you feel uncomfortable. But don't let her attitude keep you from at least investigating other possibilities for a new layout. Oh, how much would I love to have a 20 x 17 kitchen!

Can you post a floorplan for how it is now? There are some very talented designers on this board. I bet they could come up with something great. I'm with Cheri....your kitchen is so large, it might really benefit from zones instead of a classic triangle. I have zones in my kitchen and just love it!!

zones are the current thinking over the triangle for 2 reasons:

1) There are generally more people in the kitchen now - whether working or just hanging around.

2) kitchens are larger so that there's more space to accomodate larger work spaces for each function.

If you are happy with your current flow, and you are designing a kitchen for you, then that's a good thing.

Given your space though, there may be ways to make things flow better and a good designer can help with that.

Work triangles and all the hoop la over work zones are over-rated. Just lay it out they way you want.

What are the typical "zones"? I know some people who have a designated baking area, and I assume a cleaning, or dishwashing, area? What else? I don't think my kitchen is set up this way, but I may want to change it around while I have the chance!

before I saw the size of your kitchen, I was about to say that the KD is crazy because the work triangle makes absolute sense in a kitchen. My kitchen is not big but it functions beautifully with the work triangle. But I do agree with the other posters that a kitchen of your size could benefit from work zones, and you don't have a work triangle now anyway. so yes, keep on interviewing till you hit on someone who makes it make sense to you. With that space you could have something really great :)

Before anyone embarks on a new kitchen design it's a very good idea to work through the questions and ideas in the Read Me thread that has been complied from the best of GW wisdom.

The zone idea takes into account that not all kitchen work is cooking. Also, the idea is to have things stored in the place they'll be used. For instance, have containers and wraps in the clean-up to fridge zone, so that you don't have to move here and there when putting away a meal, but can just clear, wrap, store, and wash. Have knives, peelers, etc., and cutting boards in your prep zone, and if you have a sink there, also colanders. In a baking zone, have your staples, if you can, but certainly bowls, scrapers, etc. In the cooking surface zone have commonly used seasonings, oil, broth, wine, whatever you use in your pan. If you use a kettle, also teas, and fixings (honey or whatever) instant drinks, et al. Some people have beverage stations with undercounter fridge for cold drinks and/or wine fridge, coffee maker, electric kettle, glasses and mugs.

That kind of thing. The exact configuration depends on your lifestyle. The difference from traditional is, for example, utensils at their point of use, rather than all together in one utensil drawer. Which supposes a large enough kitchen to have significantly different stations.

None of this eliminates the work triangle. Rather it refines it. And substitutes a prep sink in one workflow and a beverage fridge in another. The basic idea of sink/stove/fridge is still very important. Where people interrupt that flow we start talking about barrier islands.

I have zones. Thank you Buehl and everyone who participated in my discussion (Impossible Kitchen Plan was the title if you're interested). Here's a picture so you can see. This is going to work great for me. It's a tiny different than the picture, but based on work flow. Kids will leave the table, go past trash and scrape plates, pass sink and rinse if need be, put in dishwasher, and out the door into fam room. I have a baking area bordered by fridge and ovens, and a snack/pantry area where I didn't know what to do with the empty space. I never really understood the triangle deal. This is much more intutive to me.
Lisa

Check out the Read Me thread, it lists the most common zones & what is normally located in/near them.

As to your KD...whether I agree w/your KD is immaterial, the fact that she tried to bully you is all I would need to know...it's time to look elsewhere. If you let her bully you now, it will only get worse as she tries to force her vision of your kitchen on you.

I'll be honest, I agree w/her for the most part. I think zones are #1 but the triangle still has merit, especially when discussing distances (e.g., you don't want your refrigerator 20 feet from your Prep or Cooking Zones.

++++++++++++

From the "Read Me" thread...

Common Zones, Appliances In That Zone, and Suggestions For What To Store There:

• Storage--pantry & refrigerator--Tupperware, food, wraps & plastic bags

• Preparation--sink & trash--utensils, measuring cups/spoons, mixing bowls, colander, jello molds, cutting boards, knives, cook books, paper towels

• Cooking--cooktop/range & MW--utensils, pot holders, trivets, pots & pans, serving dishes (platters, bowls, etc.), paper towels

• Baking--ovens/range--utensils, pot holders, trivets, pots & pans, casserole dishes, roasting rack, cooling racks, cookie sheets, foils, rolling pin, cookie cutters, pizza stone, muffin tins, paper towels

• Cleanup--sink & DW & trash--detergents, linens, dishes & glasses, flatware

• Eating/Serving--island/peninsula/table/nook/DR--table linens, placemats, napkins, dishes & glasses, flatware

• Utility--broom, dustpan, swifter, mop, cleaning supplies, cloths, flashlights, batteries, extension cords

• Message/Communication/Command Center--keys, phones/answering machine, charging station, directories/phone books, calendar, desk supplies, dry erase board or chalkboard

Less Common Zones:

• Tea/Coffee Bar--coffeemaker--mugs, teas/coffees, sugar, teapot

• Snack/Beverage Center--near MW & refrigerator or small refrigerator--snacks, snack dishes, glasses often combined with Tea/Coffee Bar)

• Pet Zone--feeding area--food, snacks

Commonly Used Items: pots & pans, utensils, small appliances, linens, pot holders, trivets, dish detergents, "Tupperware", knives, pitchers, water bottles, vases, picnic supplies, cook books, etc.

Foods: Spices, Breads, Flours/Sugars, Teas/Coffees, Potatoes, Onions, Canned Goods, Dry Goods (rice, pasta, etc.), Cereals, Snacks

Small Appliances: Toaster, Stand and/or Hand Mixer, Blender, Breadmaker, Toaster Oven, Food Processor, Crockpot, Waffle Iron, Electric Skillet, Coffeemaker, Coffee Grinder, Ricer, Steamer

Look at Lisa's layout! See the beautiful, tight, uninterrupted, easy to tread main work triangle?

It's an awkward space, so there are some less perfect forms for the subsidiary triangles. That is, the sinks are a little out of the way to the baking zone, and the fridge is a little off for the coffee/snack zone, but both of these functions look like they work very well given the parameters.

Thanks, Lisa! Great illustration!

Cross posted w/you Lisa! You're welcome (and thank you for the compliment!)

As I was eating a late dinner after my first post, I got to thinking...it's not that the triangle is dead and zones have replaced it, it's that zones are a natural development beyond the triangle.

The work triangle was the beginning of a concept of kitchen design...the zone concept merely extends it.

You still want decent minimum/maximum distances b/w major appliances/fixtures, but those appliances/fixtures are in zones... The refrigerator & pantry are in the storage zone(s),
The main (or only) sink & DW are in the Cleanup Zone,
A prep sink (or very close proximity to the only sink) and the refrigerator (close proximity to it) are in the Prep Zone, and
The range/cooktop is in the Cooking Zone
Lastly, the Prep Zone & Cooking Zone should be either next to each other or very close to each other...preferably w/o the Cleanup or other Zone between them.

The zone concept also encompasses the workflow...that Zones should follow the natural workflow in a kitchen (as Lisa shows & Plllog also described)

Storage --> Prep --> Cooking --> Serving --> Cleanup & Storage (for leftovers & ingredients left out during prep)

These are also the main work zones. These zones are the ones that are the primary components of the work triangle. The others zones/centers are almost always secondary and it often makes sense to have them outside the work triangle somewhat so they don't get in the way of the primary work zones where most of the work in the kitchen is usually done (yes, there are exceptions). Of course, you don't want those secondary zones/centers so far away that they're impossible to use...

If for some reason one of those secondary zones/centers has to be located elsewhere, then adding appliances/fixtures will make the zone/center more useful. For example if the Baking Center is far from the sink(s) and refrigerator and pantry, then locating the oven(s), adding a small sink, a small refrigerator or drawer, and appropriate storage in that center will make it more usable for its function - baking.

Sometimes even the major zones have issues with appliance/fixture location that the addition of a small refrigerator or drawer or prep sink can solve...but great effort should be made to not have these issues with the major work zones.

Complimenting or maybe even extensions of the zone concept are ideas such as... Adequate work aisles,
Adequate workspace in each zone and amount of workspace tailored to the activities done in that zone,
Adequate landing space around & located for each appliance/fixture (including safety margins and emergency landing space around ranges/cooktops/ovens),
The Refrigerator & MW both being on the periphery when possible to allow both the kitchen insiders (i.e., those working inside the kitchen) and outsiders access to them w/o the outsiders interfering with the insiders,
Separating...

Work triangles are a thing of the past.

They are also rooted in sound principles - ones that still work today...............for some.

For others , those with expanding size kitchens and multiple meal preparers the triangle may not be the best solution. The days of your mother or Hazel being the only one in the kitchen doing tasks is long over for the vast majority households.

So , it really depends on your needs, lifestyle and the space you have for a kitchen. There is no one right answer.

It's worth noting that the work triangle was originally developed back in the 1920s, when the American kitchen was significantly smaller than it is today and was much more likely to be a self-contained space, with most rooms closed off from one another to retain heat, separate uses, etc. And the concept of two sinks or two ovens was pretty much unheard of! (I've been doing some fun research on the history of the triangle after we discovered that the woman who developed it grew up on our street---really fascinating to see its origins, since it really did revolutionize design in its time!)

To that end, I think the work triangle still works well in small kitchens as a way to think about space, but the further you venture away from that world, the more you may want to incorporate other concepts like zones.

This argument against work triangles really puzzles me. What Buehl said is absolutely right on. Zones, or subsidiary triangles, enhance a main work triangle in a large kitchen, but doesn't obviate the need for a nice, tight triangle, no matter how many cooks. Otherwise you just end up with a heck of a lot of hiking.

In a large kitchen with multiple cooks, it's important to have the storage areas equally accessible to primary, secondary and tertiary prep zones, and to have the prep zones accessible to their associated cooking area(s). Multiple cooks, however, does not stop the person who is sautéing from needing to get something out of the fridge, or to pour out something into a sink. Even if someone has a kid to fetch and carry, that kid is going to grow up soon, and it's silly to plan for a permanent scullery maid unless you're really going to have one permanently.

If Msgronlud likes the way her kitchen functions why are people trying to talk her out of it?

So we don't lose this discussion...

Another factor to consider is the roles of the participants in cooking. Growing children in this society, if motivated, will begin to take a greater role in cooking, esp. daughters like mine. and eventually they will become true adults and co-cooks in the space. One primary cook with a helper is different from two cooks working simultaneously and independently. Dual cooks is very different from having an extra hand or two when scraping dishes and cleaning up. I had no idea that my younger daughter would become an aggressive presence in my kitchen when I designed it for ME before she was born. We got to the point where I had to leave the room when she was there--she overwhelmed me physically because she is a large woman and was so different in workstyle that we made terrible co-workers. If we had had more independent work areas and no overlapping walkpaths, we could have been happier. The kitchen became a part of a much greater ongoing struggle as she hit the awful years of adolescence.

Besides good design, there also need to be some rules. I finally made the rule that all cleanup had to be finished before this daughter left the room. This made her movements more predictable when we both used the kitchen and decreased the number of misplaced items. You will find that you will similarly codify protocols to make the work areas more efficient, even if it's just to require the other cooks to call out "coming through!" or "behind you!" so you know where they are when they work outside of your line of vision.

My daughter now lives alone, but loves to cook with me when she can, and she is more body-aware now and more solicitous of my feelings and preferences. The kitchen survived her adolescence, but has not done well in my retirement.

I have come to understand that multiple cooks require more and more redundancies--sinks, chopping and work surfaces, commonly used knives, walking triangles, even equipment like measuring spoons and spatulas and measuring cups. I think there need to be at least two triangles that don't overlap if there are co-cooks. Those of you who hire help for parties will need to take these additional people into account, but I think it's more important to have "escape" routes from a closed kitchen space than it is to have lots of work zones and redundancies. We can get too crazy about designing for the extraordinary instead of the ordinary.

Working alone, I would be happy in my old kitchen, with a single triangle so long on one end that it was almost a straight line. But now both spouses are retired and my guy is a major presence in that kitchen, both as cook and companion. I am trying to avoid the martyr syndrome and the stereotypical "wife feels retired husband is invading her space." We've designed a G-shaped kitchen. I just hope that whichever of us survives the other, that person will still be happy in this new larger workspace we're designing.

Go through a number of scenarios in your design...

Whether it's the triangle or zones, what really matters is how you use the kitchen, how you and the others at home cook together. When I was trying to figure out what to do, so many KDs said, "oh, we'll put the sink under the window", or "you can't do wood countertops" or other things that made me feel like a total idiot with no clue about how a kitchen "should" be. I ended up shelving the whole project for a few years, until I had figured out more how I wanted the kitchen to function. Then I found a KD who seemed to understand what I was saying, who gave some constructive and practical suggestions about things I hadn't thought of. And so I went ahead - oh, of course, with tons of help, practical advice, photos etc. from GW :)

And size does play a role. My kitchen is a galley, 10' x 7' before I moved a short wall and added 3'. And I didn't put the sink under the window! That's where my longest run of countertop is, where I do my baking, and where the cabinets are with all my baking stuff, including a toekick drawer with baking pans - this is a zone idea I got from GW. So I have a basic triangle, although it's a bit elongated from what it was in the old kitchen, with a baking zone.

From all my experiences, and the comments so far here, two things stand out for me: 1) figure out how you like to work/cook/use the kitchen; and 2) find the KD who will design the kitchen around you/your family.

I think one might have to really understand the KD's advice and plans some more because it could be hard to tell the difference between semantics and poor design.

In your post, it sounds like you may have yourself identified a work "zone" that requires a work triangle, and the KD wasn't listening and was trying to divert you because of other issues in the KD's own plans for the kitchen.

For instance, since I do a lot of stovetop cooking with stuff that comes from the frig and may need to be rinsed and cut up, then my main dinner prep zone needs for the most part a classic work triangle. In fact we have that in our current small boxed in kitchen and one of the things I'm working on is how to preserve that, or preserve it reasonably well, in a remodel.

I have seen a number of kitchen photos in which they identified "zones" that completely lacked the elements necessary for a really functional zone--e.g, a water source if that is used often for that job, a way to keep stuff from falling on the floor, clean up easily, and so forth. Now, sometimes that's okay if what it is is "expansion space"--that is, if there's a great work triangle and it's just me, I might do all my prep, of every type of cooking, in one area, but with added space, a certain counter top becomes a place for an occasional second cook, or school project, or whatever. In that case, it can be important to plan it for what it is, and not somehow make a plan in which you are forced to do certain types of prep in less conducive area because someone thought you needed more zones.

So, agree with tossing the labels but looking at flow, jobs, # steps, pivots, barriers, bumping butts with others. Most people can't get all of the flow all of the time, but if you can identify your Zen moments vs. "hot spots" -- those things where you enjoy perfect flow the most or those that irritate you the most--then you try to get the most + with the least - .

This thread, in particular the focus on what tools and foods need to be located at or near each work zone, is a useful reminder (to me) that attractive designs and clever space utilization isn't enough, if things aren't where they functionally need to be.

I was going through my evolving design last night, and realized that the planned appliance garages place the food processor, blender, etc across the kitchen from the countertops where they will actually be used. A dumb oversight but one that somehow escaped notice until now. Very humbling.

johnliu, that is a great observation, and for great reasons.
One is that, it isn't that appliances can't be stored away from the counter of use. Lots of times the "best" design for space and budget and other priorities might require that. It's that you would not need to create or pay for an "appliance garage" in that case--so, appliance garages have a few very specific advantages that can be used, or lost.

I think the kitchen designer in the OP's post does what many contractors do-they point out all the "flaws" as a way to justify their usefullness. If the kitchen was already perfect, they'd be out of a job-or, at least, doing a whole lot less.

Zones-I think they came into existence because the average modern kitchen now has so much stuff that it doesn't all fit into the triangle any more. When you get rid of the warming drawers, the beverage fridge, the wine cooler, the speed oven, the coffee center, the prep sink, the second DW and the redundant seating (island and table), and reduce the fridge and range to a mere 36", what's left fits into a triangle.

what's left fits into a triangle.

When you get rid of ....what's left fits into a triangle.

There is still a triangle.

When I meet designers and salespeople I use this word ("triangle") as a way to see how they deal with people. Their reaction. Many of them tell me the world now thinks in terms of "Zones", and they convey a bit more than that while saying it. It can be quite revealing.

Davidro, excellent way of saying it!! How concise! I think that's what I was trying to say with many more, imprecise words.

The Zones concept is excellent, and really the only useful way to organize a large kitchen, but "death to the work triangle" is like "death to the old ecomonmy".

I think the "triangle" is a one-size-fits-all that doesn't. Fit all, that is. But that's not to say that it doesn't fit some!

This has been said above but I'll say it again:
If you're kitchen works for you, then don't let anyone tell you that you have to completely reconfigure it. OTOH, be open to new ideas because you never know but the one thing you never would have thought of might be perfect.

I suspect the OP has long since moved on to other KDs. It might just be that the perfect thing for her is to keep the same exact footprint. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if there ARE some improvements to be made, the ideas for those changes need to be presented properly.

I've said this before, but I believe that the vast majority of people who remodel (or redecorate or redesign or whatever) hire someone with the idea that they will come in and just "fix" everything, with minimal input from the homeowner. That's what the designers are used to. People who already know what they want are the rarity so designers assume you WANT them to come in and just "take over". You have to find the (IME relatively rare) designer/contractor who is more interested in hearing your ideas and then working with that. They're out there, you just have to keep looking till you find them.