Didn't see the last post.

I couldn't agree more that at school they need to handle this better, but how do I make that happen, just telling them to deal with it isn't enough as I think we need to work together. Seems to me like they are not used to this kind of behavior which surprises me as it seems like normal testing boundaries.

BTW we are hoping she gets in to a similar school here that you mentioned for Kindergarten, but she is on a waiting list there. I'm glad to hear it is working for you.

She takes a nap on the weekends. Saturday she tries to pull the same thing with us, but it doesn't work and Sunday we generally have no issues. I do think she is between the no nap and needing a nap. It is possible our nap time is a bit later than at school though so it may make a difference.

Afternoon naptime is a different teacher generally so not a down time issue for the teacher, but it has spread from naptime to morning time too.

It seems to be worse on days when she woke up too early too, but are no longer limited to that. Not something we can control unfortunately although we try with telling her that she has to go back to her room after going to the bathroom and wait until we come and wake her up. Not always that she goes back to sleep though.

We usually have a few good days after she had an episode at school.

Everyday I role play with her on the way to school with the "what do you do game" - our made up game that she asks to play every morning in the car where I make up things and she answers with what she thinks she should do. Ex. If your friend is talking and you want to say something what do you do? I make sounds like they do on a game show for good or bad choice. She knows the good choices so that is not an issue. I started this when she was having an issue of playing in the bathroom and that stopped the behavior. We've just continued as she likes playing it.

I agree that some children test boundaries more than others. One of our three certainly did. I also agree that "making" her sit in the director's office may seem more like a reward to her than a punishment. If I were you, I would request a meeting with her teachers and the director so that you are all on the same page regarding discipline. Her father should also be present at the meeting.

Good luck!

I think the role play game is awesome. I would be observing her in school, even if I installed a camera. Lol. You need to see how they interact with the Leader Type personality.

Best Years, you sound like an awesome teacher. My Mom always said that one can catch more flies with honey. She was a school bus driver for 29 years. She loved her kids and they loved her.

This summer I read the literacy program, "The Daily 5" and it has changed how I function in my classroom. One of their main points is to never let the kids practice wrong behaviour. They use it to apply to literacy behaviours, but I've found it helps in everything. If someone is doing something wrong, you redirect or stop the activity, but never let them continue it. It sounds like the teachers are letting her push the boundaries.

I would never presume to give child rearing advice, but would instead encourage you to read a couple of books by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish----- How to Talk so Kids Will listen and listen so Kids Will Talk, and Be the parent You Always Wanted to Be. Their approach to child rearing, especially sibling rivalry, literally changed the way I relate to my children to this day.

But....it does sound as though something is off --- in the school setting, with the teachers, something. Frankly, it doesn't sound right that a child that age should need so much discipline and since it doesn't seem to be working, I'd observe your daughter in her class. Most prek's have one way glass to allow parents to watch without being seen. You may realize immediately what the problem is, or the behavioral triggers, or see what the teachers need to do differently. And I realize this point of view is antediluvian, but not all kids should be in school at age five....just a thought.

Had to run to take kids to lessons, but I also wanted to add that another thing I've changed this year is that I try give more power over to the kids. When they have a problem or do something they know doesn't fly in the classroom, I'll say, "how can you solve the problem?" or "think of a solution and come back to me" or if they break a rule or get into a conflict, I'll ask them what they think should happen now. Very rarely will they say they should just be allowed to go back and play. At first, they were all about giving themselves consequences (I should sit by myself or I should not get playtime), as we've practised this more often, they are now getting that they should make things right (clean up the mess, be extra nice to the person whose feelings they hurt, etc.). It's kind of amazing how the situation deflates when you take out the power aspect. Really hope this makes sense - I'm right in the middle of report card writing and am probably not taking the time to explain properly.

One thing that may help is to give your daughter some control and responsibility. Since you have noticed a link between early wake up and later misbehavior, why not get her a nice alarm clock? Analog, not digital.

She sounds like a very bright person. I am sure that she would enjoy the responsibility to be in charge of setting it at night and knowing it is OK to be up and about in the morning once her alarm goes off. Then just tell her that if she wakes up early, and uses the restroom, that she needs to go back to bed and try to fall asleep until the alarm rings.

As to the school behavior issues, I think it is also insightful to ask her why she is doing these things, and to also ask her what she thinks would be a good solution to the problem.

And ask her point blank if she behaves unacceptably what SHE thinks the fair consequence should be.

And also let her know that sometimes her task is just to pass some time and not bother other people. Kids need practice with this. Activities like waiting to be seated at a restaurant, going to church, and being a car passenger while mom is busy in interstate traffic come to mind. Does she get practice doing these things without a flat screen in hand? To just sit and amuse herself and not bother you? Learning to deal with boredom is a valuable skill that I think is harder to master than is acknowledged.

You sound like an awesome mom, and so creative in trying to think of ways to teach your daughter good character traits. I agree that sitting with the administrator is only making things worse. Love the Daily 5 program, they use it at my children's school, love the 123 Magic program, and love the idea of positive reinforcement. Moving colors, animals, clips, whatever they come up with is a good way for the kids to visualize where they are in terms of behavior. She DOES sound strong willed, which actually is a wonderful thing. Once she puts her mind to something, she doesn't give up. It will serve her well as an adult!
They need to handle this at school. They may be frustrated, perhaps even inept at knowing how to best handle her, but at least they are not lowering her self esteem through yelling or making her feel less than for her behaviors. She is certainly testing them (she seems very bright) and they are trying to figure out what to do. They need to figure that out. Her kindergarten teacher will need to as well as all of her other teachers. You can support the other adults in her life and teach her to respect them, but I think that is where your job stops. JMO

I appreciate the advice very much and will check those books out to see if they may apply too.

I talked to her teacher when picking her up and it seems very limited in what they can do timeout wise by the state and they can't remove her from the class room and leave her alone. Apparently doing it in the class room doesn't seem to face her or not get participate in some activities doesn't seem to matter. The worst during morning class is her and one of her best friends are talking and being disruptive during class. Small classroom so even though separated they still talk over to each other.

Then at nap time she apparently will scream and 45 min or so - never had that issue at home. I think the most we get is 5 min before she calms down. However this screaming wakes other kids up. This started about 3 weeks ago and seems to be continuing much more often now into a habit that needs to be broken. I'm thinking she enjoys the special treatment and attention at this point. She knows exactly what privileges she's loosing as she answers that when the teacher asks.

The state limits how long she can be in timeout 1 minute per year of age. I asked if it could start counting after she calmed down. They didn't know.

I think the problem is they need to care for the other children too. The teacher said she is extremely smart and she is problem solver. Now if I could direct the problem solving to how to behave at school.

So at home today I tried the approach of tell me what you will do to not talk during class time to her friend and what if she talks to you etc. We'll see how it goes. She started with all the you should be quiet and listen and all that and I said, but how are you going to make yourself do that so she made a little progress there in trying to figure something out, but I don't have any great suggestions for her either on that one so maybe not the best, but I want her to see she is in control of her behavior.

On another note she got in trouble while waiting for me when I was talking to her teacher. She put her mittens on and came and interrupted that the tag was bothering her. My response was I can't do anything about it now it will have to wait until we get home. Continued to talk to the teacher and a few minutes later she came out of the classroom and I asked what were you doing as she was putting the mittens on again. "I cut the tag off". I told her I appreciate her resourcefulness, but next time wait until I can help you as I asked and sure enough she'd cut a hole in them. Good lesson as they were her favorites and the only pair that still fits. Of course she had faith I could fix them, but not happening.

"The teacher said she is extremely smart and she is problem solver. Now if I could direct the problem solving to how to behave at school."

Like I said above, raising Leaders can be difficult. They are never content to be the compliant slug in the back of the room. That's why I was thinking you can gain her cooperation by accessing her thoughts. Max was like this and I had to gain access to his thinking and engage him mentally. Nothing. Else. Worked.

Maybe you could invent another game - where she doesn't get in trouble or lectured - to gain insight as to her emotional state before she acts out. I suspect she knows why she is doing this and the sooner you have insight, the better things will go in the future. She is likely much smarter than her teachers and she has their number.

Oh and I told her we are going to start the sticker system at home so if she is good at school she will get a sticker and when she has 5 we will go to the store and she can pick something out for less than 5 dollars.

I'm not really into doing this one, but will give it a try as it seemed to motivate her more than getting to pick an activity has.

Max refused to call teachers by anything other than their first and last name. Even the Principal was "Mike Smith." I talked to him about how he needed to call them 'Mrs Such and Such." He disagreed with me and thought my idea of respect was superficial. He was 7!!

I have to wonder, is she just bored and in need of more challenges and stimulation? Dealing with boredom, as mentioned above, is a skill that needs to be learned but if it is the problem, you may be able to find solutions. If it is a quiet time, is there something she can be doing with her hands to help her focus (a ball to squeeze or play-doh to roll)? At nap time, maybe you could work on strategies of her singing songs in her head until she calms down or making up a story in her head until she is able to sleep.

I think that way too, tish. Smart kids are a challenge. I keep thinking someone needs to get inside her brain STAT. She is very smart.

Sometimes, and I am not saying this is indeed happening, but sometimes girls especially crave that best friend interaction, and teachers do everything to keep it from happening, as it can be disruptive to the day to day schedule. Which leads to talking and getting "in trouble".

That friendship is important. Your daughter values it. That is a good thing.

Maybe she needs to find a way to know that she can have some dialog time with her friend. Would she want to call or skype for 5 minutes after school? Play dates? Can she and the friend talk freely and giggle for a few minutes at then end of the day before being picked up?

True story. First daughter went off to Kdg. One day while I was in volunteering the secretary voices her concern for my daughter's health. It seems FD is in the nurses office several times a week due to headaches, spending anywhere from half an hour or an hour "resting". I asked the secretary if FD had a fever or was throwing up. I then asked her to follow the school's handbook on illness and unless either of these two things were present FD should remain in the classroom. I chatted with the teacher before I left that day and requested FD not be rewarded by being allowed to leave the classroom whenever she felt the need for a "break". The teacher admitted FD and a few boys were often naughty but that she appreciated that FD was able to be disciplined. She quit when asked!!! She accepted consequences and changed her behavior!! That seemed to be a novelty for this teacher. When I asked FD about her headaches I was not given a very sincere excuse. The next time I was in volunteering in the classroom the secretary let me know the headaches had disappeared. Imagine that...
Once upon a time my MIL told me, a very new mother, women of my generation did not have tough enough hearts to be moms. A prominent and highly successful Psychologist told us during a presentation I attended that pop-psychologists were giving out detrimental advise. Children need to know who is in charge with no gray areas!! My degree in child development/speech/language/hearing disorders and 35 years in the schools tells me they were correct. My own children are now off to college, honors programs, top of their classes,talented and engaged in their communities. I am soooooo glad I had the good sense to believe my MIL and Dr.s Dobson and Guarendi!!!

Related to the "smart" issue, I teach full day Kindergarten (kids are 4-5 years). We do not do nap time (altho sometimes I could use it) and these kids are going full-out all day. We are reading and writing and do about double the mandated math program. My students always tell me they want to do more "work." We do a lot of play too, but I often wonder about bored kids in a regular program. I know not all kids are ready for a program like ours, but girls generally are. I know you said this school is really your only option, but I wonder if they offer an enrichment program for students in which she could take part.

Arcy, well said. Many people have said it in different ways. The Adults must be in charge. The kids must know the parents are in charge. This creates security.

There are far too many Feral children these days.

I think Lyfia's situation is different. I've experienced teachers who can not control or lead a classroom and the bright children sound the alarms.

Had a chat with the administrator this am and she told me she just ordered 3 copies of a book by Dobson one for us to read. So it sounds at least like they are trying to do something. I just don't see how it could have gotten to this point as I do not use corporal punishment on my daughter so can't be that, but it is also clear I'm in charge to her and what acceptable behavior is.

Any suggestions to get my daughter to talk to us about why she does it? I don't want to put words in her mouth, but she just doesn't seem too good about talking about her feelings.

At this point it seems like we are past the being tired (we already have the clock and she goes back to bed, but isn't always sleeping) as this week it has turned into a daily occurrence and seems to be escalating and she had plenty of sleep before yesterdays day.

She is being called defiant and it was mentioned to me by the teacher and administrator that if this was the school district and elementary school she would have been sent to the special class for troublesome students.

Frankly though there are several teachers there and yesterday they sent her around to different class rooms and they all had issues with her. I mean all of them can't be push-overs and should be able to control it.

The kids do have plenty of dialog time - just seems like they are constantly talking to each other. According to the administrator it is my daughter getting the other one in trouble.

I'm just feeling really beaten down this morning about this. Actually her other BFF's mom who doesn't go to this school told me she can't believe what I'm telling her. Doesn't sound like my kid at all to her.

I think golddust is right I need to figure out how to get my daughter to tell me what is wrong.

tish - I thought that was an awesome idea of quiet singing - we practiced this morning at breakfast and she seemed to like the idea.

When I dropped her off today I tried to challenge her to be good by saying I know you know how to behave and I know you are very good at it. Can you show everybody today that you are the best at being quiet at naptime and the best at listening and not interrupting the teacher.

Looks like they are looking at separating the girls into different classes, but the classes are full so not an easy task as that could mean having to move another kid and that is not fair either.

Honestly it seem really out of control and I need to try to work with this for just one more semester. I'm going to see if there are any other options available to us, but I'm not holding out much hope for good options. Hard in a small town.

BTW I asked about her getting to read a book for naptime and they said they can't do that as then they'd have to allow it for the other kids too and then they wouldn't sleep either.

State requires them to keep naptime - I guess laying down and being quiet for an hour is the rule.

Oh I missed one - Great idea on asking her what she thinks consequences should be.

We did work with her coming up with solutions to avoid doing it herself last night, but ...

nan - since the school seems open to documentation I would appreciate it a lot if you could send it to me. The e-mail is my user name here @ hotmail .com - without the spaces.

"State requires them to keep naptime"

Is the preschool part of your public school district or private/fee based?

The private preschool my kids attended in MA gave kids in that older age group the option of nap or quiet play. It seems crazy to expect that all 4-5 year olds need a nap in the middle of the day or that they can just sit there doing nothing for an hour.

I went to try to found the book they mentioned and I'm not sure which one yet, but came across the new strong willed child by dobson so ordered two of those hoping to give one to the school.

I know she is very strong willed - both her parents are too so she didn't have a chance, but neither of us misbehaved like this. I'm hoping this is a book that will help the school and me as she grows.

Edit: Actually I'm attempting to cancel it as I'm hoping for possible other suggestions along this line too before I order. We have a strong willed child and it is not going to go away, but we need to teach her to get along in society and learn to play by certain rules at least. Any suggestions for a better book?

This post was edited by lyfia on Wed, Dec 11, 13 at 11:44

I have another question. Does this preschool follow any particular child development theory or teaching method? If so, what is it?

I liked the Strong Willed Child but I have also really enjoyed Kevin Lehman's Works. He has a fantastic sense of humor. The one for the age group you would be looking at is Making Children Mind without Losing Yours. My library has it, maybe yours does too. It has been a while since I have read it but I seem to recall some good strategies in it.

I would have gotten prickly about the class for troublesome kids comment though. Most schools do not function by putting all the behavior problems in one class. To me it sounds like the school needs a little more imagination. She is 5 years old and while she may be a challenge for them, it should not be an insurmountable one, especially as they are receiving support from home.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Lehman Book

Removing double post.

This post was edited by tishtoshnm on Wed, Dec 11, 13 at 13:08

"I would have gotten prickly about the class for troublesome kids comment ."

Me too. Actually, I am a little ticked off right now after reading this. Starting to wonder about this school. My twin boys went to pre-school for 2 yrs since they weren't ready for K-gdn. Not all of the kids napped.

This comment is out of line and IMO unprofessional.

I have been through some challenges with my son and my heart goes out to you.

May I ask how many days per week she attends this pre-school and her hours?

I'm thinking a couple of things.

1. Your daughter may be bored and acting out because of that.

2. Somewhere in the school, someone isn't using the behavior tracking system they have consistently. So your daughter isn't getting the firm reinforcement that she gets at home and dance class.

3. Your daughter has been labeled the "bad child" and all the teachers in the school know it, so they are looking for and magnifying behaviors at this point. Which they might let another kid get away with.

4. Your daughter now knows that "everyone in the school has trouble with her," and feels like if that's what everyone thinks, then that's how she should act, since her attempts at being good are still being criticized.

I'm having a hard time believing her behavior has deteriorated this quickly. Either there have been problems for a while and the school just didn't address them with you as they happened, but waited until they were at the breaking point, or (and this is what I suspect happened) something has happened at school that has in some way upset your daughter and her behavior is the result of that.

Any chance you could pull her out completely until after the winter break? Then start again with a clean slate?

I read your post early this morning and you have been in my thoughts. I come from the positive reinforcement camp. Since your daughter is 5, she should be pretty verbal. When you ask her about her day at school, does she give you details? Will she tell you about her misbehaviors as well as instances when she has kept herself in check? Focus on the good behaviors and praise,praise,praise.I also think in yours/hers daily activities and during times when you are frustrated (ex:long lines at the mall), verbalize to her how you are feeling (stressed,bored, angry etc) and how YOU get beyond it.

Camlan, I agree with you. I think this school may be a poor fit for her. Still curious about the pedagogy.

They seem to follow what the public pre-school does and is church run (not any other choices here except in home care which will not prepare her for school). I don't think people are eligible for the public pre-school unless there is a disability or a certain income level. We are on a waiting list for a private Catholic school (we are not catholic) that comes very highly recommended to us from friends and neighbors who are not catholic either and have their children there.

Her current one is also spoken highly of in the community and I have to agree the teaching is outstanding and much better than her previous schools, but the way this has been handled has been less than stellar. Actually until about a month and a half ago I was very happy with the school. My first dissatisfaction was finding out they'd lost her vaccine records. She has records from two different doctors and them not owning up to that it was missing, but rather saying I never gave it to them. Again this was the administrator. I did exchange a few e-mails and talks about it and in the end she fessed up it was their general response that went to all with missing records. Would have been easier to say that to start with. Then now it is this which IMHO is being blown out of proportion and they should figure out how to deal with. She can't be the only strong willed child. Maybe the only one that stays for nap.

She is napping now as in being asleep in the 2 year old class with the teacher that the administrator said was a strong disciplinarian.

Hours wise she is there until after naptime and afternoon outdoor time - she doesn't want to miss outdoor time so if we come earlier she asks if she can stay to play. Except on Fridays she is half day only.

She was good earlier today too according to the administrator. I wonder if my encouraging her to be the best she could be and me saying I know she can helped this morning. A bit of a challenge and an encouragement.

I agree that I don't have confidence in the administrator anymore who should be providing guidance here to the teachers too. The whole thing has seemed very unprofessional and camlan I think you wrote out exactly what has been in the back of my head.

I wasn't just prickly I was mad, but I swallowed it and didn't say anything. I felt like I was being bullied, but also had to get to work.

The amount of time she is there varies with different days, but we try to stay consistent. I'm wondering if some of this is because there hasn't been as much outside play time too because of the cold weather here in TX.

It looks like the minimum requirements in Texas says something like napping should be encouraged, but may involve reading books, or listening to music as not all children will nap. A puzzle would keep our daughter entertained.

She does tell me about her day and I do praise the good things, but will start to make a bigger deal of them if you think it would help.

I will start to express how I feel about different situations too to help her figure out feelings.

I will ask if she wants to stay home next Wed-Fri again when my mom will be here, but she has said she wants to at least go in the morning. She really likes learning and school time. Just need to learn how to behave during it too which is why I wanted her in pre-school before real school starts. Learning for all of us.

Just a thought...you may want to be the one to make the decision about going or not going to school when your mother is visiting. Consistency is good, so sending her for the half day is probably a good idea. I am not sure it should be a decision a five year-old should be making and it also sets a bad precedent (going or not going to 'real' school won't be her choice).

JMHO :)

You will get through this.

Just a crazy question, but did the behaviors begin to crop up about the time daylight savings time ended?

I work at a mental health center and we notice a big up-tick in issues every year at that time.

Cyn I agree, but since this has been going on and I've felt like not taking her at all to take a break I wanted to see how she felt about it. I was encouraged that she still wanted to go. If my Mil hadn't just had surgery I would have already pulled her out temporarily to spend time with them to break the pattern that seems to have developed at school. My family is a whole continent away so not much time is spent with them either.

I really appreciate the advice here as it has helped me calm down about things and go back to trusting my instincts.It also helped me have a very useful conversation with my daughter about the nap time issue. She started crying when I gently asked if she liked what she was doing at nap time and told me no mommy so we talked about why she was doing it and it comes down to that she doesn't always want to nap. We talked about what she could do instead and she said she isn't allowed to have a book which was one of the suggestions in the states minimum requirements for children to do if not napping.

Somebody put a copy of the subchapter that one references in her cubbyhole today so I will ask about the book tomorrow. My co-worker thought it was unreasonable to require a child to be still for an hour when she pointed out she couldn't be still herself for that long.

Anyways after talking about other things she could do during nap time to keep quiet I said I know you are really good and I know you don't want to cause trouble and you are a really good girl and I'm very proud of you. She reached out and I got the biggest hug. She seemed so much happier after that too.

We also created the sticker chart for at home and she got to put the first sticker down and then explain it to Daddy just so we knew she got the full meaning. She was really excited about it.

Daddy gave her lots of praise and high fives for doing good at school today when picking her up too.

Chibimimi - no it was later than that basically just the last 3 weeks with the nap time issues. The talking in class has been an on and off again topic, but not brought up as a huge issue until the last week and used to be maybe once every two weeks since the fall semester started.

I should reiterate again that I really appreciate all the view points here and the suggestions and advice as it really has helped me make what I feel is much more progress than we had up until now.

God job. This is a child who needs her heart and brain held tight.

Posts like my last one reminds me of my regional language upbringing - when I don't think about communicating with the broader world.

I should have said that you are doing a good job combining the needs of her head and heart. You are a great advocate for your daughter. Just verify (constantly) that you are connected to her needs. Parenting stretches you as a person and I can see you are rising to the occasion.

Am I to understand that she is there 5 days a week, all day except for 1/2 days on Friday? That is a long time - many days and hours for a preschooler to spend in school, IMO. Most preschools around here are 4 half days at the most, and some are 3 half days. They will be going to kindergarten full days so I think that the idea is to work up to that. I think that many kids just aren't ready for the structure, socialization, and demands that a preschool can bring. If this is the case, I would send her mornings only, and let her have lunch, rest time and play time with mom or friends at home. Sorry if I have misunderstood.

I think it's time to schedule a meeting with the administrator and, if possible, her teacher. Not a quick chat while you drop her off, but a solid hour where the situation can be discussed without interruption.

And don't go in apologizing for her behavior. She behaves for you and the dance teacher and the other mom she has play dates with. So go in questioning what's different at school that leads to this behavior?

Has it been on-going all year and they only recently told you about it? Is it a recent change? You say that she does at times get the stickers for good behaviors and has gotten several prizes. So what changed?

I mean, it's a school full of experienced teachers. None of them can handle a 5 year old who talks out of turn? Really? Based on your posts, all she is "guilty" of is screaming during nap time, playing loudly with a toy at naptime, talking during class to her best friend, potty mouth when sitting with the administrator, and smirking and doing something when told not to. These are not the behaviors of a juvenile delinquent.

Seriously, this is not behavior that would get a kid in public school sent to a special classroom. I have friends who teach and the horror stories they have about kids who spit on teachers, hit teachers and threaten teachers--and they still can't get the kid removed from their classroom--would curl your hair.

Your daughter is exhibiting normal 5 year old behavior. Maybe a bit more of it than usual, and maybe she has a bit more attitude than the average 5 year old. But because she is capable of controlling her behavior at home and dance class--there's something else going on.

From what you say about the medical records, I wonder if there's an issue with the teacher--maybe she's new or inexperienced or something--and they don't want to admit that to you.

One final thought--is there any possibility she is being held to a different standard because she is a girl and is supposed to act "ladylike?" Would her behavior be more acceptable to the staff if she were a boy? As in "boys will be boys?"

camlan - thank you for echoing again what I'm feeling about her behavior and I know because she is strong willed so she will push things a little further until you stop it. If you give an inch she will take a mile. But she is also a very sweet girl who cares for people and doesn't want to be in trouble. At home all we have to do is mention that her behavior is unacceptable because xxx and she stops in firm, but nice tone.

The problem I'm currently having is not the teacher but rather the administrator and it is who the records thing occurred too. The teacher was much more receptive to suggestions and explaining why something wouldn't work in their setting. Actually I got the feeling that they don't want my daughter there at this point from her. This morning was the third time I was told if we didn't like it we could go somewhere else although this morning is the first time she's said it directly after I was trying to suggest maybe let her have a book to read to refocus her attention. Administrator again brought up that the state requires 1 hour of nap time and that she gave me a copy that show that and it does not say it has to be napping and it says rest time and their short handbook versions suggest things like reading a book etc. I'm just trying to suggest things to help them break the pattern, but she immediately jumps to things like I suggested putting her in a different room etc. I just think she doesn't fit in with the administrators unwritten rules at this point and they are trying to make it worse than it is as she wants her gone.

Trust me I'm looking at options at this point as they do not seem willing to work with me at all, or at least the administrator seems very inflexible. I guess they can kick us out and that seems to be what she wants.

Yesterday I suggested the following: "Is it possible the teacher can when they first get their nap mats and lay down to try the positive re-inforcement approach and praise her and give a little extra attention for putting her mat out like she should and for laying down so good etc. Ie try to give her a little more attention in the positive way. I know this isn't fair to the other kids long term, but maybe that would help keep her on good behavior. However I'm afraid she's already figured out which teachers she can push over at this point so not sure if that will work."

The response I got was what they do at naptime as in their normal routine and how the sticker system works. I responded back with "That is good that is done, but I'm wondering if just thanking her to re-inforce positive attention so she doesn't start to try to get negative attention will help. I know it is a bit over the top, but I'm hoping it would be a good start by thanking ahead of time for not doing the bad behaviors. Show she can get attention without doing them."

I got no response to this. I'm not sure at this point what they expect. I'm thinking of setting up a meeting with them, but need to research some of the states rules and also research what alternatives we have if we have to leave since we work.

I really appreciate the advice.

Oh another thing I'm torn about is I don't want to just up and leave as I think it also sets a bad example of you just give up when something isn't working. But maybe she is young enough that it doesn't matter at this point. I really don't want to move her away from friends again only to do it again in the next 6 months again.

Wow. They are ridged. What kind of training does the Administrator have?

"If you don't like it you can leave" sounds cult like. The Administrator is acting as if you are questioning their abilities verses creating a healthy village for your DD.

This might be a good preschool for some but it's clearly not working for your DD. You should always listen to her. If she can't articulate her experience, she can certainly act out on it.

Don't let anyone else ruin your child. Do it yourself. At least you will know why you are paying for the Therapy.

The administrator sounds like a nitwit. That's not very helpful, I know, but I don't think there is anything wrong with your daughter.

My very intelligent, successful 27 year old DD was accused by her second grade teacher of humming when the teacher's back was turned. DD said honestly that it wasn't her, but teacher persisted because it seemed to be coming from DD's row of seats. DD was extremely indignant at being unfairly accused several times, and simply stopped speaking to the teacher. She would answer direct questions, but minimally, and somehow managed not to address her (teacher) by name the rest of the year. Teacher called me in for a conference with DD included, and their accounts of the initial incident were essentially the same. Teacher was then indignant at being ignored by a child and wanted me to make DD apologize to her! I told the teacher that I could force an apology but it would be meaningless, and that's why I would never do it. I was hoping the teacher would have the grace to set a good example and apologize to my child for accusing her of lying, but she did not. And the rest of the year my DD did not volunteer a word to her teacher.

Insisting that the adult is always right is a very dangerous position to put children in, as it robs them of their ability to make decisions and protect themselves from adults when the need arises. My DD had and has a very strong will, and it has served her well.....

Gosh, that sounds like a maddening meeting. It would be very easy for the teacher to make those positive comments to your daughter and other students who are also cooperating nicely.

I don't know if this fits here, or not, but I'll toss it out to see what you think. It may provide a way to stay at the school if you really don't want to leave just yet.

In third-grade my son had a very strict, by the book teacher. He was a somewhat classic absentminded-professor-head-in-the-clouds kid. I say classic because this was a GT class, and those kinds of kids are fairly typical in those classes. Third grade can be a difficult transition year anyway, but it was especially tough for him and us because this teacher seemed to take his absentminded behaviors personally. It was also difficult because I'd never had anything but praise from his teachers, so I probably overreacted. The teacher sent home notes every week about his transgressions, sometimes more frequently, and occasionally called. (He'd left his lunchbox in the cafeteria again, he'd forgotten his homework again, he'd lost his jacket again, he couldn't find his math book again...) I talked with him about it constantly, met with her, observed, tried different strategies, etc. Honestly, we didn't make a lot of progress. He was and is a scatterbrained egghead (he's a physics major at an Ivy League college right now). Finally, to my great relief, we reached the end of third grade. But the relief only lasted about 2 months, until I found out that he would have the.same.teacher for 4th grade. I was beside myself, knowing we just didn't want to suffer through another year like that. Fortuitously, a week or so later, I ran into the school's AP (who I was getting to know socially) at the neighborhood pool. I spilled my frustration, and she had the perfect solution. She said if it's a problem at the school the teacher should be handling it. Since she was the Assistant Principal at the school, had been a fabulous teacher to my son in 1st grade, and knew and respected this teacher very much, I took her advice. Specifically she told me to read the notes, and if talking to the teacher, to thank her for bringing it to my attention, but that I didn't have to provide a solution. (I'm sure her advice would be different if the problems were different. He wasn't disrupting the learning of any students). She said if he wanted to talk about anything or I wanted to ask him briefly that was okay, but not to focus on it. So that's exactly what I did. The teacher continued to send similar notes. His report card often contained related comments, but he was happy to go to school, and seemed somewhat oblivious to her frustration with him. We had a far, far less stressful year. It was great advice.

I almost posted this yesterday. Now I will.

Our 2 DDs had mostly excellent teachers in their K-12 experience. But from time to time there were a few that were just ok.

We made a life lesson to them on this that sometimes people are doing their best, but that best isn't that great. And that sometimes you just have to stick it out if it is ok but not great, if it is something that has a definite ending to it.

Let's face it, we will all at some times in our lives have ok but not great bosses, co-workers, customers, or people we are interacting with in sports, activities, etc.

As long as it is ok ( and never if it is NOT OK), then it can be something that your daughter may be able to learn from.

As long as she has the cognition to understand that YOU have her back and are on her team, and that you all will get to the end of this. If she understands that there are stupid rules that we are going to follow for a while just to make our lives continue on without a big disruption, but that only because your team has looked at the situation and decided that even though it isn't great, that it is OK. Because of course you also want to instill that if it is NOT OK, you want to always figure out a way to take care of your own needs even if it means disruption or inconvenience.

She seems pretty smart. And knowing that you too think the rules are stupid, but that you expect her to follow them, may be just the ticket to getting through this.

If all else fails - I would find the legal written state requirements that mention the option of quiet activities and present that to the administration. If they ignore the state requirements and are trying to push you out ... then I might even pay for a legal letter to be sent, outlining the state requirements and how you will be filing a complaint with the state. Let them feel some discomfort, since they seem to think they have the upper hand.

Be careful. They are caring for your child when you aren't there. Do not make them mad at you. I'm already concerned about your DD there. Leave before legal intervention!!

Also I agree kids should not rule the roost and should stick it out with teachers but she is forming her love or hate for school at this tender age. It's because she is five and in Preschool that concerns me. That's all.

I really appreciate everybody's input. It has been really valuable to me to read and help me work through this.

I talked with her BFFs parents last night whose daughter is not at the school. Her BFFs mom picked up for me as I got stuck in traffic behind a wreck. She read her folder notes and was a bit shocked about the complaints such as wasted time during center time, not standing still in line, etc. Then her husband mentioned that it is not worth for your child to be feeling like she isn't good or picked on at this point in her life when you can do something about it since even though the teachers doesn't say it all the kids know who is the one they call bad and no point in harming her self esteem at this age. He also said he has never ever seen her act like anything but a normal 5 year old and they are around us a lot. They also have a strong willed daughter. He told me to listen to my instincts. I felt better to have talked to them and validate that I think it is a bit extreme.

He also said he was sure the administrator wasn't used to talking to somebody who is well educated and researches everything and then contradicts her. They both know the person in question. It is funny because that is almost exactly word for word what I thought after talking to her yesterday morning about what the law actually says.

Yesterday went good and later in the afternoon when I checked in to see how things were going they said if she wasn't asleep by a certain time then she'd get to read books and do puzzles. Seems like they decided to listen to me about what the state said after all.

This morning was more like a normal drop off with one exception. My daughter said as soon as I parked and came to her side to help her out that "Mommy I have a tummy ache" and I asked if she needed to go and potty, the answer was no and I could feel it seemed more psychological than physical as she was dragging to go into school. Since late last week this has been going on about not wanting to go in vs. she used to run ahead of me and be all excited. I really feel for her as it can't be easy to process.

I left her with that I think she is an awesome kid and I know she is the best and she reluctantly let me go.

Then this morning I got a call from principal at the school we were hoping she would get into for Kindergarten - didn't make it into pre-K, saying they have an opening in the Spring in the pre-K class. I'm going in on Tuesday to meet with the principal. DH and I are going to discuss some more, but we are fairly certain we will switch. I don't want to deal with anymore threats of you can leave if you don't like it when discussing things as I feel it is unproductive and I feel bullied when it is said.

The upside too is that if she already is a student then she can continue into the Kindergarten program and we don't have to worry about being on the waiting list. I also looked at their published schedule and they have story/naptime and at a much later time that seem to fit much better with an older childs need for a nap than the 1.5 hr earlier that they enforce at her current school which works for younger children. Their time is more in line with the time she actually falls asleep on the weekend than the time we tell her to go and take the nap (we try to stick to the same schedule as school).

This just seems like a wonderful gift to me as I was worried about moving her through too many places and doesn't seem like it could have come at a better time. One of the boys on our street is also in this class and she plays with him and his older sister who is in 1st grade at the school.

This post was edited by lyfia on Fri, Dec 13, 13 at 15:07

Yay!!! Spring can not come fast enough for me. I will feel better when she is out. Good job holding her heart and spirit today.

Sounds like a great resolution all the way around. I am truly glad for your daughter and for you. No five year old needs to be made to feel bad about herself. Tell your daughter she's been promoted!