I see construction photos, but no kitchen plan? How do you build and install by 'just doing what feels good?' I think I'm confused about this.

Love the granite, though. It looks like you have a nice, big open space that can handle the visual strength of the color and movement.

Confusing, I know, but there are no plans!

We started by taking down the exterior wall---and one thing led to another. We knew we wanted to incorporate old patio space into living space so we dug a foundation, decided where exterior walls were going to go, built the roof and added windows in that order.We then tried to decide how to use the interior space. Still no plans--just started framing. Definitely not the norm. Crazy I know but that's our story.

I do have a friend who is an architectural intern that came out the other day to take a look and I asked her if she could draw up a very basic to scale plan for me. I just have it as an email. Is there a way to get that info here?

Wow! Crazy, you brave souls. I can't wait to see a drawing. This is a great place to go from a good plan to a great plan. Everyone here is just wonderful and so giving. A pizza oven, my new must have in my dream kitchen, which is still a dream. I have tried to attach pictures of James pizza oven, the only other pizza oven I have found on the kitchens forum.

/Users/debbie/Pictures/iPhoto Library/2005/06/10/IMG_1106.jpg
/Users/debbie/Pictures/iPhoto Library/2007/12/19/a_Kitchen1.jpg
/Users/debbie/Pictures/iPhoto Library/2007/12/19/d_Kitchen4.jpg
/Users/debbie/Pictures/iPhoto Library/2005/06/10/IMG_1105.jpg

I see now that you have written explanations if we click on each photo. You do have plans afterall, just not drawn. It'd be much easier for us, so we could be much more helpful to you, in floorplan form, so we survey the whole idea at once. We'll be able to see what rooms are around, what the traffic pattern might be from different directions, aisle widths, etc.

There is a lot the photos don't tell us: We don't know if you have little kids who like to help or older ones who need a place to do homework...or if you're past kids or before kids. Are you going to live here forever? Is this a place that might have to accommodate older folks? What is your cooking style and activities, besides making pizza? Lots of baking? Lots of entertaining?

We all love to help, but we need a bit more detail.

I'm still trying to figure out how to somehow get my little house sketch here. In the mean time:

debsinthepink, couldn't get to pictures you sent but I have actually seen james pizza oven from another post. I've always known I wanted to do a pizza oven so contacted him early on and got great help.

rhome, thanks for sticking with me. Just a little more info. yes, I love to cook--but after living in the basement these last 7 months I'm not sure I remember how :).
We do eat a lot of pizza but hopefully will be able to use pizza oven as a second oven for lots of things. We don't do a lot of formal entertaining. More spur of the moment with a few couples and whatever is on hand- but our house is always open to family and friends. Our kids (2) are grown and married but hope the future will make it easier for them to come home more.

My husband and I are both retired and he has recently started to want to experiment in the kitchen and needs lots of space!!!. We do a lot of outdoor grilling in summer and love to roast veggies straight from our garden ( pizza oven?!)

This is our forever home. We have lived here 30 some years already and I don't see that changing.

thanks for the input on the granite---never having had granite it really scares me. I guess I'll just try to think of it as a piece of art and I do love the colors and movement.

If you can at least draw up your floor plan showing where the doors & windows are and let us know what appliances you'd like, whether you want kitchen seating, size of sink(s), etc., it would help immensely!

Be sure to include dimensions! Not just overall, but the distances b/w doors, windows, walls, etc. Graph paper to scale would be ideal, but not required! As long as everything is labeled (distances, gas or water hookups--if they cannot move, etc.)

All you have to do is draw it up, take a digital picture of the drawing, and post it (upload it to your picture account). Include in the drawing the rooms around the kitchen so we can see where the Kitchen is relative to the rest of the living areas and what doorway goes where.

The pictures you were unable to open are pics I received from Jamesk. (a really nice GWr) I bet you already have them. Can't wait to see your drawings but I obviously can't help with that process. Buehl's suggestion about using graph paper is good one. When I started using graph paper things started to make sense and became fun. debs

You do have a fabulous space to work with and an amazing view. I love your sense of adventure in just going with what feels right, and so far, it looks like you've made good choices. I agree, though, that for anyone to give very concrete suggestions, at least a rough drawing is kind of essential. It's hard to place yourself in that space and see where everything is relative to everything else without seeing some sort of layout or coming for a visit. I think a layout would be easier. :)

And the granite is gorgeous! I think that your space can handle it, and I think it will pick up the tones from the stone in your fireplace very nicely.

I will look forward to seeing your fascinating project progress!

Thanks everyone.

It's been a long haul and I find I'm either very excited or worried silly. I feel so very lucky to have found both a grounding spot and an invaluable resource at the same time.

Will try to get layout pic to you asap.

Even if it's just the walls, doors, windows....you don't have to draw in cabinets, etc. A list of what you want (appliances, seating, etc.)

Okay. I have tried to attach a couple layout sketches. Don't know if you can work with them or not. So please let me know. Also wish I were better at describing things for you.

Some specifics.
In case you can't tell from sketch, all exterior walls in kitchen are windows or doors.

Kitchen is approximately 16' wide by 19' deep

Depth = window wall to backside of built in fridge wall. More like a room divider than an actual wall.

Width = interior edge of the 9'island (island extends 3' into great room but I am not counting this 3' as part of kitchen space because it doesn't line up with cabinets under window wall in front of kitchen.

Center island possibly 54" by 66" (maybe even 72")

I am trying to keep all walkways around center island at least 48" ( (54" would be even better by fridge and 2nd island if that works out)

Would like to have:
30" to 33" main sink with disposal
small prep sink on one of the islands (not sure of size) with disposal
36" induction cooktop
down draft ventilation
DW--possibley drawers
36" single door CD fridge
30" single oven ( needs to be undercounter)
WD and MW
or Advantium 120 ( in butler's pantry)
Coffee station ( in butler's pantry of kitchen)
Bar sink (in butler's pantry ?)
Really really like to eat in kitchen but have only been able to come up with seating at bar between kitchen and great room.
wine storage and/or beverage fridge (possibly in pizza room)

Don't know if there is anything else I should add except that I prefer not to have my back to people when I am cooking. No little kids. DH and I are usually both in the kitchen trying to cook or sharing the days events
Yikes!!!Maybe its too much already......... :)

Here is a link that might be useful: photobucket

I know I'm being picky, but can you re-shoot sketchofhouse008 so its more straight on?

What is the little square box in the 9 foot island - a column?

Is the little sorta "H" shape of walls behind the ref required? Is it structural? When you refer to a butler's pantry, it's really those cabinets on the back of the "H"?

Do you cherish the idea of two islands? Do you absolutely not want a tradional pantry?

Where do you see a pizza being assembled before cooking? Do you want to move the coffee bar/drinks thing to the pizza oven area?

Do you want people to graze at the buffet?

Do you like to walk?

Will you consider his and hers designs?

Am doing my best to see the plans. I think I'm loving most of the kitchen itself, but would like a better view of the details.

One thing I wonder...Isn't a butler's pantry usually in the path to the dining room from the kitchen? It seems a bit out of the way, with a more direct path available straight from the kitchen to dining area.

Like Bmorepanic, I wonder where you'll do all the pizza activities. I would be concerned about walking clear across the great room, snaking through people and furniture with pizzas ready to bake, or hot pizza needing to be cut and served...And if you're assembling and/or cutting and serving in the pizza room, it's a long trek back with dirty dishes to the kitchen. It also seems like the dining area is a long way from the cleanup sink and dishwasher area, but the island is close, so if you do a lot of your eating there, I suppose it's OK.

You have miles of counter, which looks lovely and expansive. I would consider for yourself if you need more storage and less counter. I had a smallish kitchen (tiny compared to this one) in our last house, and countertop in non-essential areas seemed to collect junk and need dusting without being of much use. Just something to think about. You could add more full ht storage to lessen the counter if you think you might want it.

bmore,
I will try to reshoot tomorrow.

yes, the square box is a structural column. Thinking of facing it in same wood as cabinets. May or may not have island surround as shown.

H shape of wall behind fridge/oven is not structural.
Needed a way to incorporate fridge and oven into kitchen without blocking views.
Also serves multiple other purposes:

It creates a hallway from back entrance and laundry room into the kitchen.
That hallway is what I am calling the butler's pantry.
I can have tall pantry storage, upper and lower cabinets and drop zone counters, a bar sink, a desk, a bench or any combo on either side of hallway. Can maybe see it better in larger view.
It keeps stairway from master bedroom that comes down into that hallway more private.
It blocks view of powder room door from kitchen.
I needed to somehow define the dining area and this creates a niche for a buffet that does that nicely.

Two islands? could possibly go a different direction although the kitcen is pretty big and I wanted to somehow connect to but divide from greatroom. what are you thinking?

Traditional pantry? Just didn't want to build a wall anywhere that would block a view or stop the beautiful light from the windows.

Making pizza in kitchen then relaxing at big round table or freestanding banquette in pizza room.

Walking not an issue yet...:) very subtle--had to laugh.

Graze at buffet? possibly or friends can sit and chat while I cook.

Don't know what his and hers are. Although DH (newly retired and really just starting to cook) likes to help. Mostly he doesn't last all that long and ends up sitting at the counter having a glass of wine and thinking he's doing a lot. Definitely won't be in kitchen if we have company but usually women friends are.

Rhome,
I was afraid my sketches would be lacking!!!

You are right about the butler's pantry. I just didn't know what else to call that hallway with cabinets, etc on both sides.

Both you and Bmore make a good point abot pizza room. Unfortunately pizza oven has to go in that spot. There used to be a chimney there so it has a great foundation that can handle the weight. Originally the kitchen was going to be in the greatroom space and that made more sense for the pizza oven-- but not as much sense for other things. Hopefully if we are making pizza for a crowd everyone will pitch in. When it's just the two of us maybe it won't be too much hassle. Non pizza meals will probably be at the counter or in front of the tv (sad to admit)

Before the "remodel" the whole house had 7'6" ceilings, no view and very little natural light. As much as I hate the idea of more housework and would love more kitchen storage, I don't want to give up any of the great feelings I get from the natural light and mountain views.

2 new layout pictures. hope they are easier to see. I am lousy at this!!!!! :)

Here is a link that might be useful: photobucket

Wow!!! Overall a very cool space. I really like what you did with it and how you are incorporating the 2 islands and the frig/oven/buffet area. Couple of thoughts/questions:

How far is the "butler's pantry" area from the prep sink island? Reason I'm asking is maybe you would want to put your frig and oven against that wall and move the coffee station nearer in the buffet area. You could put frig drawers or a wine frig in there as well. Guests could just go there if they are sitting at the island without getting in the way of the "cooking" part of the kitchen.

I don't really understand the "bench" part in the "butler's pantry". If you do move the frig/oven over there, you might want to just have a landing space in between those 2 appliances. You could also then eliminate your 3rd sink, or move it to the buffet area to assist with quick snacks and/or drinks.

Overall though, very cool space. Love all the windows and it looks like it will be whole lot of fun to live in.

That's great pictures now!

The coffee bar/bar wants to be used for company and could be used for a pizza process staging area. I understood that you had a few beer-pizza genes floating around too. How many people do you have for pizza (usually)?

I understand about the back hall, I think. The coffee bar feels lonely and I was wondering about the buffet and "H" thing simply to see if any of that was something that could or should move.

Your actual working prep area is really tiny small considering the size of your kitchen. The "prime rib" is the two feet to one side of the prep sink and the three feet on the other side of the same island. For comfy rangetops, you'd like about 30 inches on BOTH sides. For comfy prep, about a single four foot stretch.

His and hers could mean His prep area v. your prep area so he isn't underfoot all the time (cough) at the tiny small prep island.

Is it really good pizza? I heart pizza!

I agree with Bmorepanic (again) on the space around the cooktop. Pretty skimpy. Otherwise, pretty cool, but that particular thing could be frustrating.

Mahgold, I feel like the so called "butler's pantry" is far enough away from prep sink to make moving fridge and oven over there inconvenient and out of the main kitchen work zones.

Hmmm...

you all have me rethinking coffee bar.

Does it help to know that I originally planned it in "butler's pantry" (think I should start calling it the back hallway???) because it would be right there at the bottom of the steps when we come down from our bedroom in the morning. Could just grab a cuppa and head on into the kitchen or greatroom. Or could easily grab a cup when I come into the house later in the day.

Bmore and Rhome, I have worried about the center island too---something about it just didn't feel right. I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

Could possibly make the island bigger. I just worry about having this BIG MASS in the center of the kitchen.

Also could move cooktop and sink, or just cooktop, or just sink to big island. I thought of doing that in the beginnig but wanted to keep the cooking part of the kitchen--odors, mess,grease, noise--away fro the great room and dining room if I could.

Any ideas?

My old kitchen had 2 separate cooktops. The one on the island that I used for most things was just a two burner with a prep sink on the same counter run. I think the island was about 5' long and I didn't really have a lot of space there either. Didn't really bother me---but then I could always go to the 4 burner across the room if I needed more room.

Lack of space might not be such an issue when it is just the two of us. And the main sink could also be used for larger prep area or when there are two "cooks" in the kitchen.

Bmore, pizza better be fabulous!!!! I can't wait..... Pizza forever!

Probably won't be cooking pizza for a "crowd" very often---maybe at first though--- our style is more just 2 or 3 couples or our two kids ( can you still call them kids when they're mid 30's ???) and their spouses and a few of their friends.

Thanks everyone for sticking with me. And I love it that you like my space as much as I do.

I think I would prefer the prep sink and cooktop on the same island. Can the buffet area be moved to the right at all? Not sure if it interferes with the space out of the powder room? You do have some extra space on all sides of the cooking island. You could expand it and I don't think it would look too big. Especially since you have the large eating island right there. I guess if I was going to move the cooktop or the prep sink it would be the prep sink. Would move a sink slightly closer to the pizza area and good proximity to the buffet area.

Silly thing to start more conversation. Am still thinking about pizza...
{{!gwi}}

No prep sink?

OK so I spent the last 2 hour upstairs ( we live in the basement since demolishing the better part of the house) in the cold -- 7 degrees!!!--no heat yet--- measuring, walking, trying to mimic working in the kitchen. so if I make no sense my brain could be frozen.

mahgold-- didn't mean to not answer your past ? about bench. I know it seems a strange place for it but thought it would be an easy spot to take off shoes or put on boots when coming and going?
no chance of moving buffet over closer to powder. Could possibly make the actual buffet part smaller and move fridge and oven back further into that space. this would affect the symmetry of the dining area though.

bmore---
I really like the look of new kitchen on paper but:

1--long way to fridge and freezer--although I can get over that especially with fridge drawers

2--island creates a fairly big barrier when carrying things to and from main sink and cooktop into dining room

3-- presently, there is no wall between kitchen and dining room---the structural column (11"x6") you see isn't attached to anything except the beam above it. Because of where it is located in relation to the buffet/pantry it creates the feeling of an entryway into dining area. Pictures may or may not give you a better feel for this.

4--yes, i know this is funky but what can I say?

5---I still like the idea of of the 2nd island because it divides the great room from kitchen yet allows me to be a part of whatever is going on elsewhere. Also keeps the chi from coming in the french doors in the kitchen and blowing straight out the pizza room windows :).
6-- thinking of doing a bar sink and drink fridge over by the pizza oven and possibly using a freestanding furniture piece in buffet alcove instead of built in cabinetry ...

rhome---I'm 50/50 on getting rid of prep sink. my friends all convinced me I would want it citing the way I cooked and prepped in my old kitchen.

And,of course, I completely forgot to mention that forever ago the plumber came and said we had to make decisions right then. So we have plumbed for main sink, prep sink on island, bar sink in back hallway, bar sink next to pizza oven and for fridge on fridge/oven wall. If I can make things work this way it would be better for us. If I need to change now is the time rather than later.

Thanks all. m
ps. having crockpot leftovers pizza sounding waaaay good

Yeah, but.. Do you have enough space in the basement to mock up that island? Please don't go back in the cold.

I mean with boxes. You can tape the prep sink and cooktop on top. Or use saw horses or something else that's actually there.

If you have multiple people, there isn't any good place for them to help. The prep sink will be a trip-over-people zone because of the ref, particularly when its door is being opened all the time for beer. At the same time that I'm arguing that position, the cooking/prep is oddly far from your guests - I don't think much conversation will occur between the guests seat ten feet away and the cook. That's part of why I think they'll all drift back towards the prep area.

Standing at the boxes, imagine where the pepper is, a caddy of tools, the pot lids, etc. I really don't think that's going to work for you because all the "stuff", the pot parking area and all the great prep space is in 3 feet that goes around a corner.

So that drawing is a pitch of a large island with enough counterspace, etc... I can sorta see gaining more counter by hooking the second island onto the outside window-side cabinets. The peninsula becomes much longer, you can cook facing your guests and not do prep in front of the ref.

I can also see an "L" of guest island hooked to a narrower, but longer "island". With the person at the cooktop standing about where the prep sink is, the prep sink moving to the "guest island", it would make a great cooks castle. It would require some sort of beverage ref or ref drawers on the clean-up sink side of the castle to keep people out from underfoot. It's a lot closer to the guests because you prep right at the back of the guest island and you can simply push over washed food you want them to chop.

So this is another concept of the two hooked together.
{{!gwi}}

bmore,

Once again I really like the look and I would love to be a queen but my castle feels confining--and access to the other rooms is a little weird through the dining room.

You are so right about cooking/prep area being oddly far from guests. That's been bothering me all along I just didn't put a name to it.

I can definitely see what you mean about prep sink creating a bottle neck. Would it help to change fridge to french door or side by side with smaller door swing? Beer fridge in pizza room. Wine storage in dining room

I tried hooking the big island to the outside window wall last night but the kitchen window wall and the great room wall aren't in line. great room wall jogs out 4' -- so if island extends into great room you would block off the corner of the great room---I love that window and would hate to detract from it in any way.

Need a kitchen that is comfortable for two first and foremost and then for company.

So what to do? What to do? Still feeling two separate islands are more to my liking with flow in and out of kitchen. Can you see a way to do that?

ok...I think i'm starting to panic.
going back upstairs to look at first layout with only one island. maybe move fridge to back hallway as in your 2nd drawing, bmore. put coffee bar and small sink where i originally thought of putting fridge and oven ( on short wall of buffet area facing into kitchen.) ?

Forgive me if this sounds stupid (not enough coffee!).

The difference between the two islands and the "L" is the lack of a pathway from the ref to/from the great room and I hear you saying that's important to you - do I have that right? Or is it the lack of one of the direct paths from cooking to clean-up? Or...

What the heck is chi?

I was thinking of hooking the smaller island to the outside wall, I could do a concept sketch of that idea... Are you thinking modern style or olde worlde or what... Am asking to know about island shapes available.

Sorry to not be clear---and believe me, I think it's more my inability to adequately explain than your lack of coffee

If I have 2 islands I can easily walk around the center island from any spot in the kitchen to get to great room, pizza room, dining room. If configuration is L and I am on cooking side of island with prep sink, cook top and R around the corner I must either go around the island by way of main sink or through the dining room if I want to go into great room and pizza room. I know this doesn't look like a big deal on paper but I don't like it so much when I do it. It's not the walking--it's the path through
the dining area.

Chi is a principle of Feng Shui and has to do with energy flow. :)

I'm more old world than modern but not really either.

Have I thanked you lately??? Do appreciate your help.

How does chi blow in the door? And why would the island stop it? I'm trying to understand before taking another crack at it!

Ok - Old World, one island down!

Rushing out again this morning but will try briefly to explain. According to old Chinese philosophy of Feng Shui, Chi( Qi) is the positive energy that flows all around us. Feng Shui is the practice and arrangement of space to achieve harmony with nature.
I have a lot to learn about it still. For me it means not having sharp corners on things that you could bump into. Not filling the house with clutter. Bringing the outside in. Using the healthiest materials I can find when building. Keeping the flow of energy in the house circulating----according to feng shui when you open the door you allow energy to flow into the house. You want that energy to "circulate" though the house freely. You you don't want to block it completely so that it stagnates or let it go straight in and straight out and loose it. Basically, it's about harmony and balance.

Sound goofy?

Need to rush off again today but I have been thinking about old world vs modern. May have led you astray.
When I think old world I think mor of texture and colors. Plaster, slate, terra cotta, tumbled rough edge travertine. When I think of modern I think of SS and sharp edges. I prefer the straight lines of craftsman or mission style to ornate or big heavy looking design. Don't know if this helps.

It's interesting. I think of modern as smooth, shiney, function becomes art. Just wouldn't do a couple of island things, but now would think about wrapping the structural column with a decorative column and perhaps creating a matching column on its other side.

Anywho, I'm not sure i got the chi thing. I don't have an opinion about it - I want you to have what you think is a great kitchen, so I'm trying to understand. I come from a different context than you is all.

This are two opposite pegs of a peninsula.

{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

Now you can go "I hate those"! :)

I had wondered if you had ever though about a "restaurant" style prep line running down the middle of the room with sinks on the ends and nothing on the walls. Run a prep and cook line down each side? I don't know if it would work without drawing it and what happens with the chi thing.

Just got back in town and would love to "play" with the new layouts upstairs but we are back into the 7-9 degree temps. No room to do any kind of a layout in the basement so I'm hoping it will warm up soon. Not to worry about the chi thing---my idiosyncracies are showing :)

Hadn't really thought of about moving everything off the walls. No reason not to try that one out too when I'm upstairs again.

Wondering about the configuration with the cooktop on an angle by the window---what type of ventilation are you thinking? And were you thinking of something to the right of the sink? I can't quite tell from the drawing.
Matching column by pizza oven?

Gotta say I love the "function becomes art" part of your description of modern and even the smooth part but the shiny is a hard one for me. Then why the heck a big splashy shiny granite? I'm not really sure. Think I would prefer the feel of soapstone ( which everyone here calls waaay modern ) but don't like the veining so much and there isn't anyone here who has some for me to actually see and compare. Also we live in a small town in the west and have a small cattle ranch and granite just seems to fit the space. So now, I wonder am I modern or old world?

I'm really having difficulty figuring out your kitchen, and I realize that the whole thing revolves around the pizza oven and pizza room (which I can't see on any of the layouts). Nor can I find James' pizza oven, so I don't really know what you're looking at.
But, to throw a wrench in the works, I was wondering if you had considered getting a Hearthkit, which is an insert that goes inside a regular oven, and acts like a pizza oven. We've had one for years and we love it. Friday nights are pizza nights at our house, as well as special occasions, birthday parties, etc. You have to use a pizza peel and pizza screens work on it, too. And it just stays in your oven all the time for excellent roasting or making artisan breads. We only have to take it out when we're cooking something really big like a turkey. IMHO, having used it in 3 different ovens, works best in electric true convection oven - cooks pizza in about 6-8 minutes. Just something to think about.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hearthkit (on sale!)

{{!gwi}}

warming up!!!!!! Going out tomorrow to try layouts. Wish me luck.

well, the temperature went down instead of up but finally got to spend sometime in the kitchen space this afternoon.

C9pilot, ( yea, another pizza lover!) the hearthkit sounds like a great idea, but the pizza oven kit is already on order and should be here anyday.

If you are interested in seeing where the pizza oven will be, go back to the original photobucket pictures and look at the 3rd sketch. apparently jamesk had pictures of his pizza oven posted but they are no longer there---I emailed him because I had read about his kitchen and he emailed back with info and pictures but for some reason I couldn't open the pictures or I would try to share them with you..

bmore, if you are still out there--- I had to tear the "dummy" kitchen apart to actually get the feel of all the different layouts. I still love the "idea" of the two islands--so much wanted a room divider and to have my granite be a stunning piece of art but after a all the mock ups.....I'm beginning to feel that the very first layout you drew ---- single island (with the cooktop across from the clean up sink and the seating on the opposite side facing the window wall) really works so much better.

To make it work just a little better for the way I use my kitchen though I'm wondering if it would be okay to change a few things relative to that drawing:

move R to back side of buffet where you put it in the 2nd layout?

add prep sink to end of island opposite the big oven, on the corner closest to R? I know it could be a possible bottle neck but maybe keep it far enough to the side so it won't matter---make aisle a litter wider?

put espresso machine where R was in my original layout?
storage above and below espresso machine?

have counter space next to espresso (where oven)
was in the original layout---to be used as landing for
R?

pantry adjacent to new R space where you had drawn the tall shallow cabinets in the hallway?
And more pantry across hallway adjacent to bench?

add one stool to end of counter on great room side to creat some type of demarcation from one space to another?
not have stool next to prep sink?

not have a sink in the buffet area but keep one over in the pizza room?

Does this make any sense at all? Thoughts? Thanks m