Some manufactures when 13 SEER came about couldn't build coils fast enough to meet the demands so they had there equipment tested with some generic coils.

If you already have one installed then ask to see the ARI match with that coil and make sure the coil has the manufactures warranty.

thanks, hvac122, okay that makes sense. The 13 SEER transition was mentioned, but I didn't catch the why of it. When ours was installed a generic was used but by mistake, 10 SEER coil was installed inside, for our 13 SEER HP, and no one caught it.

"10 SEER coil was installed inside, for our 13 SEER HP, and no one caught it."

This is not good. You need to have that inside coil matched to the condenser coil, especially because it is a heat pump.

With a smaller indoor coil matched to a larger condenser, your SEER will be less than 10, and your btus will be significantly decreased.

Best to you.

Has it been changed yet? When they do change make sure they give you the ARI rating for a matched system.

garyg - thanks; our system has been in for awhile, and has had many problems and service calls. It failed completely over 2 weeks ago - some valve. It took some persistance on our part, but they are replacing the unit (someone is here as I type - the unit install next week). The reason given for all the various symptoms is this undersized coil, but I am not sure I understand why it would kill the HP - probably hear more about that today. Our old system in another house is a Trane installed in 1989. Only thing it has ever required was a single small part about 2 years ago. This troubled unit is another brand - or maybe they just aren't making them like they used to, but I was not expecting so many issues with a HP.

hvac122 - I will ask about the ARI rating, but can you tell me what it is and how it will help me to know what I am getting? Thanks so much.

Double:

An undersized indoor coil never has the correct refrigerant charge which leads to all kinds of problems.

To verify that the new coil is a match, and confirm the ARI (American Refrigeration Institute) rating, you need the model# of the indoor coil that they are giving you. If you provide this, as well as the model# of the heat pump, I can give you SEER/EER as well as btu ratings IF it is an ARI matched set. The contractor should provide the ARI# to prove to you that it is indeed a properly matched coil.

Best to you.

Here is a link that might be useful: ARI Directory

Thanks so much garyg - I was just doing some more reading on this forum, and see that there can indeed be issues.

Our system was installed early in 2006. Since then, this will be the third HP to be installed. First HP was replaced due to extensive damage sustained in set-up, which they could not repair.

Middle of 2006, the compressor began to fail in HP #2, and they replaced it. It worked well for a short while, then a whole variety of problems cropped up, none really dealt with completely. And then finally died in the last couple of weeks or so. We've even had the therm replaced, as it was cycling every 3 minutes, turning the HP on/off. Turned out there was a service recall or such on that unit.

DH just asked for those numbers; was told they had already checked them, but did agree to email them. I will post when we receive them. I had DH ask them again for the warranty, both by this company and the mfg in writing for our files (has been some confusion in the past 2 years over this; with a new start, I would like something in writing that accurately reflects what was promised orally).

One more question - can a serial number of an individual HP reveal whether it has had only one owner or more than one?

P.S. We've had major refrigerant charge issues as well, so this explains much. Our good news is that we have system redundancy, with Jotul woodstoves, and a trane propane gas furnace. So we are fortunate to be warm in the snowstorms, and of course, lucky that nobody is balking on replacement anymore.

Double:

You might want to check into a PARTS AND LABOR warranty as well, just to cover yourself in case your bad luck continues with the new unit. I'm not being pessimistic, just making a suggestion. With all of the problems from the installer, they should provide some kind of enhanced labor warranty (I would tell them that directly). Most labor warranties are 1 to 2 years depending on the contractor and manufacturer. Parts warranties are 5 or 10 years depending on manufacturer.

I'm a little confused. Your original post was about an undersized inside coil for a new heat pump. You are now getting a new heat pump (outside unit) as well as a new coil for the inside unit? Are you getting a new air handler for the inside or just a coil?

I would not accept any quote that does not include specific model numbers of all equipment provided. This prevents the "bait and switch" and provides you the info needed to verify EER/SEER as well as btu ratings for the matched set. When I say model#s, I don't mean "Trane XL14i", for example, I mean condenser "Model# 2TWB3036A", air handler "model# 2TEC3F36A", etc.

As far as the S/N, you can contact the manufacturer and ask who this unit was/is registered to. They may only show the supplier/contractor who it was shipped to if it wasn't registered by the homeowner.

Keep asking questions. An educated homeowner makes good decisions.

Best to you.

I was typing during your last post. Since you have a propane furnace, I am figuring that you are getting a heat pump plus coil only (the furnace is the air handler). Propane is a very expensive heating fuel. God bless the wood stove.

The refrigerant charge issues are probably due to mismatch heat pump/coil combination.

Is Trane the mfr of the new heat pump? R22 or R410A refrigerant?

gary -
Yep, gotcha - just replacing the HP plus inside coil, the trane is used as the AH and works like a dream. The trane here was installed in 2004 strictly as backup to our Jotul Oslos (we've heated primarily with wood for many years now). Back then, propane around 90 cents, so it made sense at the time. Now at 2.19-2.69 currently (but it has popped up at times even higher), we are thankful that the only propane appliances are that trane unit backup and our gas range.

Our electric rates are cheap; had we known more about propane, or that it could leap in price like this, we would have just gone for another Trane HP, despite the quotes being 3-4 times the cost of the Lennox 13HPD-060 R-22 we purchased instead. I didn't think Lennox was a bad brand; still believe our problems are likely installation issues that could have all been avoided.

We opted for a less expensive HP because we'd already spent quite a bit with a set-up that is for sure no longer a cheap way to go (the gas part, not the wood, which yes is a blessing, even as we get older - come from a long line of elderly wood splitting fools:).

P.S. I appreciate the advice re outlining exactly what they intend to provide with exactness in writing. We were told that while our old HP was under a 2 year labor warranty, the new warranties were 3 years - however, once they agreed to replace it, they are now not certain which labor policy will apply (this is large company with offices in multiple cities). We'll be digging into whatever that means, too. While I am not entirely sure what has gone on, there is no reason not to do a more careful deal this time; and learn whatever small amount we can in the process.

Double:

That model# tells a lot of info.

It's a Lennox Merit Series 13 SEER. Basically a builder's grade heat pump. There are 81 possible coil/furnace matches on the ARI website. Looks like 11 EER, 13 SEER, 7.7 HSPF, 57,000 btu cooling (a full 5 tons is 60,000), 55,000 btu heating at 47F. OK numbers across the board for heating and cooling btus but a little weak on heating efficiency at 7.7 HSPF vs 9 for a good#. With your cheap electric rates, the efficiencies don't mean as much as the btu outputs, which are solid.

This heat pump has a 5 year all-parts warranty, other Lennox models have a 5 year parts but 10 year compressor - just so you know the difference in coverage. The warranty is weak, you need to push 10 years all-parts, plus 5 years labor (3 minimum).

The HPD has a scroll compressor which is industry preferred. It tends to last longer and put out better temps than a reciprocating compressor.

PS. Doubleshot = JD, tequilla, Wild Turkey? Crown Royal, that's it.

Good luck.

doubleshot,

I read your posts with garyg, he has a lot of valuable information for you. if you are concerned about your system match up, ARI Directory is a good website. However, ARI reference numbers ratings are brand matched.

By the way a 13 seer hp needs to be matched with a indoor air handler that has a coil with a txv valve (meters rEfrigerant thru the indoor coil) if the air handler has a 10 seer coil in it the refrigerant will not be metered correctly, this will cause a change in the systems behavior in extreme weather conditions. 10 seer coils do not have txv valves, they have pistons(orfices) some 10 seer coils can have special kits added to them to have a txv put on, but that usually will create service calls.

my recommendation is that you have your system installed according to manfacturers specs which approved ARI. Your first post was shoul I have it all the same brand? YES
go to the ARI directory that garyg gave you , hit the center of the screen, hit heat pumps , then you will see the slot the box to the left ARI REFERENCE # type in 702819and hit enter( that is a five ton heat pump from 13 seer R22 FREON 3 PHASE UNIT WITH A 13 SEER COIL AND AIR HANDLER HAS A STANDARD MOTOR

Here is a link that might be useful: ACCA AND ASHRAE CERTIFIED HEATING & AIR CONDITIONING LOAD CALCULATIONS AND DUCT DESIGNS

thanks gary! That is all good news for our situation, ie this wasn't a bad HP choice. I am not entirely certain I can get them to improve the quality of the installation, which is a big deal.

In my youth, doubleshot referred both to my coffee and my whiskey habit - JD:) In my old age, I have settled down and it is just about coffee (and the occasional nip of Bombay Sapphire gin). However, if all my appliances and HPs continue to behave erratically, I won't rule out a return to the whisky, lol...

pearson21 - thanks so much for the info and the link. Dh again emailed our hvac person, as we have not received the promised serial numbers, etc, nor info on the warranty. Last we heard, the HP they plan to install is in state, to be delivered to our city, but the inside coil is coming from California. Something to the effect that this was the only left hand one Lennox had in their system.

Okay, here are both the Model numbers.

Lennox Heat Pump Model #13HPD-060-230 (5-ton, 13 SEER, R-22 refrigerant) matched with Indoor Coil Model #C33-060-2F-3.

We are still in discussions re enhancing the labor warranty to ease our concerns.

And garyg - I saw on another thread about mismatched SEER numbers a mention by you of a TXV. What is that?

One more thing - I am on the ARI site, and finally found my HPD-060-230; but not with a matching indoor model number C33-060-2F-3. I have tried quite a few different ways to search, as they recommend, but come up with nothing.

Does that mean this isn't a matched system or that I am not yet competent in using the search function there?:)

Double:

There are 6 ARI matches with heat pump 13HPD-060-230 and coil C33-60D. Note that, based on the furnace used, the HSPF (Heating Seasonal Performance Factor - basically the cost to run the heat pump in winter) can be a very poor 6.7 (average is 8, 9 is excellent).

You will see some matches include the coil plus TDR as well as TXV. TDR = Time Delay Relay which runs the heat pump for a few seconds before turning the indoor fan on and also runs the indoor fan for a minute after the heat pump shuts off. This TDR is a relay in the air handler. The TXV (thermostatic expansion valve) is a valve at the indoor coil that regulates refrigerant flow to the indoor coil. It maximizes the efficiency of the indoor coil (in cooling mode only) under all operating conditions.

Good luck.

Thanks so very much gary for the added info. They are here for the install, and dh will get the serial # and ARI # when they open the HP box. And we were given the wrong model number for the coil, as it is indeed a C33-60D. HVAC guy emailed the wrong number. He also said all we were getting what their usual warranty, which is no longer 2 years but only 1 year labor.
So we spoke to someone with more authority in the parent company, and are getting 5/5 parts & labor, and are happy about that. For safer margin of error, I still might add an extended warranty onto that.

I will look into the issue of our coil and the Trane air handler re those efficiency numbers. Again, thanks for your help, it is very much appreciated; we are in the middle of nowhere, and it was very nice to have someone give a helping hand. Have a great rest of your holiday season!

Double:

The model# of the heat pump will be on the heat pump data tag, but the ARI# will not be on any data tag as it is found by looking on the ARI website. It will be interesting to see what ARI# is provided by the installer since you have a Lennox coil in a Trane furnace/air handler.

5 year parts and labor is fine. More is better. Negotiate the price of the extended warranty with the contractor - don't just accept his price (make them feel a little guilty about their last poor installation). Make sure you have the warranty info in writing.

Best to you.