The low one would worry me a little...with not much in the way of details they could end up "nickel and diming" you (to death). It leaves a lot up to them in how they interpret the plans since there's no detail. What you think is included in the plans they may not and they can then point to the contract and say that it's not in it. Then again, they may not. The lack of detail may be deliberate or it may indicate that they don't know for certain what's really needed/involved and they may think they can figure it out as they go along.

The other two are tough. On the one hand, you know from personal experience that the high bidder's work is very good and that they are dependable. But, you also know that you will have to pay the cabinet manufacturer more on top of that for installation.

The KD w/the middle bidder has a personal relationship w/your wife's parents...which is not always a good thing. Often we hold back and "make do" when we don't want to "rock the boat"--especially in personal relationships. On the other hand, this bidder is working w/the KD providing the cabinets, so it may help if there are cabinet issues down the road. Also, painting is not included, so that will add to the cost (just like the cabinet installation will add to the high & low bidders' costs). The big question I have for this one though is...if you have problems with either the KD or the KD's contractor and need to play hardball, how will that affect your relationship with your wife and/or her parents?

Just some things to consider...

Congratulations for realizing that each contractor included different items in their bid. Most home owners don't pick that up, they just look at the bottom line. Most people choose the middle number, they never want the lowest or the highest. Having said that there is a lot more to a contractor than their bid. Which contractor will provide the highest quality work? If this is a a true bid contract there will be change orders. Where are the weaknesses in the bids? Try not to focus on the small stuff like recessed lights that are faily cheap, look at the big picture. If you took away the bid pricing, which contractor would you use? We always tell our clients to choose a contractor that you want to work with and then tweak the pricing. If the highest number contractor is one that is familiar with your home, they might be the best choice. If so, go back to them and talk about the pricing and how to get it down.

Architects and homeowner get a false sense of security and control from a bidding process. They always try to get 3 bids and end up with the middle one. I could tell you stories that would make your toes curl from owners who picked a contractor based on the bidding process. It genrerally isn't an accurate way to get a good fit for what is a big investment.

Take care!

Based on what you've written above, I'm leaning first toward your middle and then to your high. Nothing against the low, but in this equation they are too big an "unknown."

What appeals to me most about your middle is both how specific the contract is as well as the fact that the KD would, in addition to you, be overseeing the process, and your KD is clearly really familiar with the whole thing! The fact that the cabinetry install is included is a definite plus, but it really was the above two reasons which swayed me.

I like that you've worked with the high before, and there's certainly something to be said for a prior, positive working relationship! However, their bid is considerably higher and still doesn't include an expensive portion (cabinet install) -- I don't know how many cabinets you'll have, but I'm going out on a limb and assuming that will cost you more than the painting (which was left out of the middle's).

I can see why you're having a hard time! But given what I've read, I'm still leaning toward your middle.

I'm always wary of the lowest bid because it usually means something is left out.

I'm usually wary of designers as contractors, but isn't this the guy who came up with the piano shaped island? If so, I'd say he's a superior designer, and with those recommendations he could well be the exception to the rule.

Re the high from your GC who has done such good work for you before, you can ask for a revised bid with more detail and a payment schedule before you decide. If you're really getting less for that much more money, it's worth really considering going with the KD. In most cases I think middle bids are best because they aren't lowballing or padding. But in the GC's bid, some of what isn't specified might actually be stuff you want that the KD didn't bid on. And there may be some play specifically because you didn't have your lighting plan, so that they'd do 18 high hats for the same price :) What would make me consider this higher bid (with more detail) is, "They do good work, are always on time, stick to their schedule and have been great to work with." Knowing this, having experienced this, going in is golden.

My painter's crews aren't the best painters in the world. They're good, but not the best. The best painter ever is hard to get hold of and takes forever because he works alone. He's brilliant and expensive. My painter is excellent himself, returns all messages, shows up when he says he will, charges what he bids, and his crews are nice, clean, clean up after themselves, etc. Brilliant guy isn't bad to have around, but my guy is just so easy to work with I wouldn't have anyone else.

Part of the answer depends on your comfort level of each and what you know about their work. I would not be as quick to dismiss the low bid as some others if I was comfortable with their level of work. After all, $10K is $10K. But I would talk to them about your concern over lack of detail in the contract and see if they can expand it to your satisfaction. Someone is always going to be the lowest bid and to dismiss the lowest out of hand IMO is wrong. Lots of factors go into the bid process - the low bidder may have lower overhead than the others, work on a smaller profit margin, or may not have the same amount of work on the books as the others. By this I mean, we have used a contractor at the company I work for for several projects. Their pricing will vary at different times of the year depending on how busy they are. When its low, doesn't mean they left something out or will do shoddy work - rather its just that they are more hungry for the work right then

Basically, I would look at the bids you obtained as the starting point for urther discussions with whomever you choose toward a final contract you are comfortable with

Hi all - as always great comments from the GWers.

Let me hash thru your feedback and see if that changes the "group think" at all.

One thing to clarify, the KD is the middle bidder - we would hire him and he would essentially become the general contractor as well as sell us the cabinets.

I do admit that the lack of detail from the low bidder is a bit disconcerting. I think, however, its just how they do things. Part of the price is because they are a small firm (2 partners + subs) that do NO advertising. All their work is word-of-mouth referrals and they are not hurting for work (they are currently already scheduling for this summer). They have given me referrals (I have not called any yet) and the architect says that their clients they've referred to these guys have all been thrilled.

Since the plans show the two kitchen sinks, they have told me that they are included in the "plumbing to code" line of the bid.

As for the second two, it is a a tough call, but $13k difference is nothing to sneeze at especially because the higher bid is higher still becauser we'd have to pay the KD for installation (and unfortunately we've never gotten a number for that, but I assume 10% of the cabinet cost).

Our cabinet pricing is right around $30 and including all the trims, crown and end panels is around 72 individual items.

Pllog, yes, this is the guy that came up with the piano shaped island (great memory). We ultimately changed the island shape again, but this is him. His experience shows - on Saturday we asked him about changing the doors for the cabinet over the oven since we've decided to put the kitchen TV there. He said, "just leave them off and we'll trim it out to finish it off. Keep the doors if you ever want to go back to a regular cabinet" Since our current TV is out all the time, that made perfect sense but never occurred to us. We were thinking pocket doors or a rollup door.

As for the painting, the allowance in the highest bid was only for $2000. Not enough of a difference to matter given the overal scope of the project. Since we'll have time between finished drywall and cabinets, we might do the painting on our own anyway.

If we had to choose, all other things being equal it would be to the middle or high bid mainly because of experience with the high bidder (whose contract is plenty detailed - about as detailed as the middle bid) and reputation and relationship with the middle bidder. Part of the appeal of the middle bid is that we think things will go more smoothly (coordination, etc) if one person (acting as GC) is responsible for the entire project.

buehl brings up a good point about the relationship with the KD (middle bid). This guy accepts nothing less than perfection, so I don't think we'd have any issues about rocking the boat or making do if we run into problems. While he has known my in-laws for 30+ years its not the type of close relationship that would be damaged if our project were to have issues. My FIL has already offered to see if he could do better on the cabinet pricing saying that we can't really negotiate that with him, but he (FIL) could. As for my relationship with my wife, if anything she's the one that'll play hard ball not me, so no worries there.

Ok, so there is more food for thought....how does that change our opinions??? Thanks again.

First off, check the references. Try to do an in person meeting and see the work. Bring a plant or a pie or something and get chummy :) You have three good recommendations, so now it's time to see which quirks you can live with and which you don't want.

Do the first bid people do a lot of kitchens? There are perfectly good contractors who are great on basic construction and framing, etc., who aren't experienced enough for kitchens. For instance, in the appliance forum a lot has been said about the difficulty of fitting warming drawers flush and about putting the gas hookup in right so that the range can sit all the way back. Someone with no experience, excellent specs, and the ability to think things through correctly before doing them, can do an excellent job first time. There's a lot in a kitchen that has to be equally precise. That's a DIY, usually, not a contractor. If they've done a lot of kitchens and have done their on the job learning, and if they're meticulous they could do just fine.

You keep saying the KD would be one person responsible for the whole project. While that's true, it's unlikely that he'll be on site all the time. Unless he's said he would? Most designers who run jobs pop in for half an hour every day to see progress and talk to the subs. If you're lucky :) (Which you probably are with this guy.) Does he have a foreman or construction supervisor who will be on site? Does he expect to confer with the subs and then set them loose? How long has he been employing these particular subs? Are they the same ones who've worked on the projects in the supplied references? A great thing in the KD's favor is that he's a good problem solver. Those are rare.

How does your GC work in comparison to the KD? Same questions. Have they done kitchens? Do they have kitchen references? Would the same subs as have worked on your house before be there? Who will be on site? A great thing in the GC's favor is that he knows your house and any quirks and you already know they're great to work with.

Sometimes it's harder to choose when you have three decent options :)

Hey plllog -

Regardless of who does the construction all of the cabinet installation and appliance installation will be done by the KD. He has a crew that specializes in the installation of the kitchen and its equipment. This is one of the reasons we did not have the low and high bidders include the installation of the kitchen. Given the nature of it we felt the installation responsibility belonged to the KD.

Really all we're asking of the low and high bidders is to build out the space. The middle bid (the KDs) takes care of that from his end.

Either of the low or high bidders has done everything from additions to full builds. I don't really have any concerns with the high bidder's ability to deliver a properly finished space ready for cabinet/appliance installation.

As for job site supervision, I'd expect the KD to stop in at least weekly to check on construction progress (if we hire him for the space building) and more often (if not 100%) when the cabinets/appliances are being installed regardless of who does the construction. As for his construction crews, I don't have any concerns with the quality of the people he uses.

One thing that I didn't mention which is a big advantage as far as oversite of the job...I work from home and will be here during the process. I'll be available to answer questions or call whoever the GC is in case problems come up that we need their help resolving.

Honestly, we're leaning toward the middle bid (KD). I don't see the painting to be that big of a difference. The cost of installation being included in the KDs bid probably means the low and KD bids are more like $5k apart and not $10k. If we hire the low bidders we need to add the cost of installation (which again, the KD would do) to their bid #.

Just to be very clear, part of what I was referring to on the appliance installation included putting the wiring and piping in the correct places, not necessarily the actual appliance installation.

I agree that the painting isn't that big a difference.

Yes, it does look like you're leaning toward the KD. :) That's good!! It means you're coming to a decision. Isn't it great how having to explain it to people helps make up your mind? :)

plllog -

It sure does help!!!

As for the rough ins, I would expect (and assume he would from what he has told us) the KD to be here to work with the subs on those locations for those items (and yes, I misunderstood you) regardless of who does the construction.

I guess, its just another reason to hire him for the whole shebang.

Well, decision made.

We decided to hire the KD for construction, cabinets and installation.

I let him know this morning, and we are meeting Saturday to drop off sealed plans from the architect, sign the contract and first payment.

Hopefully our final door samples will be in too.

Aiyeeeeeeeeeeeee - I feel some relief to finally be moving and a bit like I've stepped into a void because of the $cope and amount$ for the project.