Not unusual. Others have posted about this issue. I hope they chime in.

you can easily look up the cabinets yourself, but I have seen this before. What brand are you putting in?

Kraftmaid Cherry in Cabernet w/ Onyx glaze. Pretty excited about it.

My philosophy is this..... Would you buy a car without knowing how it is equipped?

This is a big purchase and I don't want any surprises

Kraftmaid Cherry in Cabernet w/ Onyx glaze. Pretty excited about it.

My philosophy is this..... Would you buy a car without knowing how it is equipped?

This is a big purchase and I don't want any surprises

You have every right to go somewhere else and price shop. This has been discussed about a gudzillion times without a clear cut yes/no answer.

If she won't give you a list of cabinets, has she given you floor plans and elevations? They should be listed there.

Good luck. Had 5 'estimates' not one gave me a price nor layout. Very upsetting. Each had different ideas and layouts. They were close but slightly different enough that it was hard to compare.

Design services are usually free. The actual designs are not. They are intellectual property and belong to the designer. The cabinet list and layout are only yours when paid for with the cabinet purchase. Until the cabinets are purchased, every single bit of paper belongs to the cabinet company. No, you are not due any documentation of any choices, whether a cabinet list or even an elevation, until the cabinets are paid for. When you pay for the cabinets, you are paying for the right to use the design, and all of the paperwork and layout that goes with the design. You are still not paying for the design itself. That still remains the property of the designer.

Unless you re dealing with a company that has a provision for a design retainer to be paid in advance of the work being performed. If you've paid a design retainer, then some of the documents belong to you. Exactly what documents that you may be entitled to at that point would be covered by the contract you signed when you paid the retainer. Some will say that you are due the entire design including all of the drawings. Those are usually the places that you've paid a substantial retainer. Some will include perspectives or non-dimensional elevations and a basic cabinet list, but not the design drawings.

GreenDesigns - doesn't the OP have the right to see the list and review it before ordering - she may not be able to take it and shop it but how do you prevent errors if you sign on the bottom line without knowing what you are agreeing to?

If you get the cabinets and they are the wrong size, some kitchen pros here will then blame you for signing off on it. On the other had, the designer has cause to be concerned, especially if a lot of work has gone into the design. Maybe you can offer a retainer so that she feels safe.

Silly business, isn't it?

The ordering process itself isn't a 5 minute meeting. At that point it time, the whole list and design package is gone over. That takes at least an hour and a half. And all of that should occur after the design has been checked out by the installer against the actual measurements of the space. Yes, it's kinda funny that the installer gets a whole copy of the design before the customer does, but that's usually how it works if the customer doesn't put any money down up front. If you've got a retainer on board, then most of this is moot. It's only when the customer doesn't have any skin in the game that everyone is a little wary.

I'm a little confused....

You said that you and your wife had settled on a design. How did you see the design? Did they email it back and forth or present it in person. If in email, then you should have a pretty good starting point for the list. I, too, like to mull over ideas for several days and I think that I would've addressed this issue with them at the get-go.

I can understand their point of view as well. They have invested a lot of time and energy into this and surely wants to be compensated for it. It's like going to a photographer. They own the copyrights to their photos, and even if you have paid them for it, you do not have the legal right to reproduce them without prior permission.

Another point is that if everything is as agreed, they are legally bound by the contract to provide you with the cabinets that are in the agreement and make sure that the job is free of errors and defects. Basically, all the liability falls on them to make sure it's right.

And, I would assume, that at this point, you and your wife have seen the design several times to know exactly what the layout is and I am sure that the elevations and floor plan become a bound part of the contract once it is signed and you will get a copy for your review.

And, they may be actually calling your bluff because you do intend on getting prices from other companies (I would!!) If they are scared of that, then maybe she doesn't have the most competitive prices on the product to begin with. You might do well having another designer that sells the same line of cabinetry (if Kraftmaid is what you're sure you want) design the space to: a) see if they provide any better of a layout and b) compare prices.

It's a LONG tedious process going back and forth with designers. In hindsight, if I were you, I probably would've sought a couple of different designers in the beginning so that you would already be at the point of deciding which contract to sign.

We are getting ready for a kitchen remodel and I've had 6 estimates and I've been at this for close to a year. Unlike buying a new car (in which there really are only a few options or packages to choose from), custom kitchens are exactly that: custom. No two will likely be exactly the same (unlike vehicles). They require a great deal of time, thought, planning, and effort from KD's and homeowners.

HTH!

I was uncomfortable with this as well and I did not use the retailers who were secretive. While I understand the need to protect design specific details, I want to know that my details are included in this purchase that probably costs more than a car. Insist on detail to allow you to know what you have purchased. If it gives the designer a higher comfort level, ask the designer to prepare a list of what's included in the price and have it ready when you bring your deposit.

I would at least insist on some level of detail when you put down the deposit such as such as x Brand Cabinetry (and specify the line of cabinetry if there are multiple lines i.e. Medallion Silver) Cherry raised panel doors (specify the door style) , fulloverlay / inset/ partial overlay cabinetry with 3/4 plywood constructed cabinet boxes. Stained or painted x with glaze y. Specified drawer glides and soft close hinges. Specified hardware (knobs and pulls) if included. Then I would want to know how many cabinets I am purchasing and the features I am purchasing for each, such as: "12 base cabinets: one with pull out trash and one recycleable bin, white plastic; two 3 drawer base cabs, one sink base with tilt out tray, one 2 door cab with (wood or metal) roll outs, one lazy susan (with wood, metal or plastic trays), etc. I would want the same detail for the uppers. I would also insist on the molding detail to be specified (i.e. size of moldings and detail about the choices - dental, etc.) and any other special touches you have added (glass doors - specify the mullions selected; end panels / finished sides, cabinetry legs, cutlery drawers, tray dividers, corbels, etc.). Remember you might have different detailing for the island. If so, specify it.

I think if you had this detail of what you were paying for, you could be more comfortable even without having the actual design in your hand. While my order was very detailed, it did not specify wood lazy susan.. and guess what? I got plastic. Yes, its buyer beware, even with an excellent designer.

Expecting her to just turn it over to you at this point means you expect her to have done all that design work for you for free. This isn't a perfect analogy, but imagine if you go to a well-known dress designer to have a wedding dress made. You meet with her several times and a design is agreed on based on sketches. Would you then ask her for the pattern and the list of materials? So you could see if you could find someone else to make the dress at a lower cost? Probably not.

You could offer to pay the KD now for the time spent on the design in exchange for her agreeing to credit that amount back to the total cost if you do eventually purchase through her.

I recall sitting down and going over everything in detail, but did not get a copy of anything to take home with me. But that was OK with me since I wasn't planning to price shop, and I knew what I was getting.

Well, if you are comfortable with everything from sitting down with her and going over it in detail, and, if you weren't planning to price shop, then I'm not sure what the problem is now. I don't think she is being shady at all.

Plan another REALLY long session with her to sit down, go over the plan again, ask TONS of questions, get specifics on things (like dilly_ny said), make sure you see it listed in the contract, and then you can feel comfortable signing and confident that you will get the kitchen you dream of.

You may even ask to videotape the meeting so that if something is discussed and ends up not being in the contract, you have something to fall back on if push comes to shove instead of a "Well, I thought you said...." and a "No, that's not what I said...." dispute.

The devil is in the details. I would not like to sign a contract on what I "think" the designer and I agreed to, I would want it in black and white.

I would also think that the designer's way of doing it could potentially cause many issues down the road when a client believes they are getting one thing but instead receive something else. How does that get resolved for the same price? Who takes responsibility if the designer has not specified cabinet types, finishes, etc in the contract?

If I am hiring someone and they tell me or treat me like I am not trustworthy, then why would I want to trust them with my money and work?

I think a lot of you are missing the point. Anyone who buys cabinets certainly does get a list of everything that they've ordered. That is not at all an issue! Everything has already been gone over a couple of times by the time things get to that point anyway.

But, for someone who isn't going to make a committment to you in the form of a retainer, and is just price shopping, why would you give your work away to them? That's just not how business works. Sure, I'll tell you what's included at that point, and you can make all of the notes that you want. But if the whole point of coming to me is to use my services for the benefit of my competition, why should I help you do that?

That's a totally different scenario where someone has paid a retainer, and actually IS going to purchase the cabinets from you. That person, has committed, and is just ironing out the details.

So, why not pay a retainer if you're ready to be serious here?

If you want to price shop, take a list of cabinets around to different shops and ask for a price for them. You'll surely get that! But, be careful if that's your primary criteria here. You are likely to get exactly what you ask for! And you're missing the whole point that a KD can provide. They can take your budget and give you the maximum kitchen that you can afford by guiding you to the lines and choices that will make the most impact.

I had to go back to the OP and then read Green Designs' perspective again. I think the friction here is the designer's need to keep control of the creative work until she sees cash on the table and the OP's need to see exactly what they are paying for before they actually do so.

We bought our cabinets from HD and installed them ourselves, so it's not the same, but I think the final sit-down would be much the same. At the meeting where we signed on the dotted line, we were agreeing to a very specific list of cabinetry and trim and we went over each piece. (Since we also did our own measurements, we also signed in blood that those were correct, and if they weren't, too bad for us.)

Maybe, dntutley, you can solve your problem by having the KD meet you in your kitchen space with the drawings and together you can review what exactly is planned for where so you can visualize it one final time before signing, and the KD can keep possession of the paperwork. I'm not talking about grand sweeping vision, I'm talking about starting at one end and accounting for every inch before you get to the other end, and triple-checking to be sure that is what is on the paperwork. I would want to know that she and I didn't have any miscommunications about the plan. This will take a while, but you get what you need and she gets what she needs.

Alternately, you could go with paying for "design services" to be subtracted from the cabinet order upon signing if that was agreeable.

Suzzannes1- Your advice was exactly what I would want. I would not need a list prior, like days beforehand, but I would want to go over everything and have it annotated on the contract when I signed so it was clear as to how many drawers or cabinets I was getting, what color, what wood, etc.