Looking straight out to the back family room/den/TV room

Looking at the wall between the kitchen and the dining room

Note that the left image is actually the "south" wall and the right image is the "west" wall in the aerial view. So the right image is looking into the adjacent dining room, and the left image faces a wall, the other side of which is the living room. This is where we have the chimney problem. In the right image, it says "coffee" under the "microwave."

This post was edited by mom3boys_fporfl on Thu, Jan 10, 13 at 23:18

Looking at the wall adjacent to the garage

I have concerns about where your cooktop and oven is located. It appears to be in the entrance to the kitchen from other spaces, which I think will get ackward and tight, especially with only 32" clearance with the cabs behind it. 48" would be ideal.

If I understand your layout correctly, the wall that houses the sink and cooktop faces into another room. I think the hood that you have depicted may become an eyesore in that location and you might consider moving the cooktop and hood the wall directly behind it to where your microwave center is located on the drawing. You could really create a nice focal wall in that location.

Then, I'd center the sink looking into your adjacent room and move the microwave to the corner where you show the DW located. You have drawn your wall thickness as 6" so if they're only made with 2x4's, you'll gain a couple of inches on your overall measurements.

For the microwave, because it's likely deeper than a standard 12" upper cabinet, you might check into seeing if a box could be framed in that full-length wall (like they frame for windows) that will let you recess the microwave more into the wall so that you can use a regular 12" upper and 24" lower.

Other things that I thought might be beneficial are:

*Could the door swing of your garage door be reversed so that it opens into the garage?

*If the door swing could be reversed, I'd switch the 27" wall and the 36" opening so that you can get a longer run of cabinets.

*Since your fridge is not as deep as the opening shows, you might consider framing a wall that is appropriate for it's size behind it and then opening up the wall in the garage to give you some extra storage in that space so that it's not wasted space. You could possibly even split that extra space between the garage and the pantry so that it's not so deep on either side. I know I can always use extra shelves anywhere I can get them!

HTH!

Just reread your initial comment and saw that you said that doorways from neighboring rooms cannot be moved so scratch what I said about that above.

But, if you could do that (is it limited due to budget or structural issues?), that would be ideal in giving you more cabinet space.

Stacylh,

Please check out the earlier post with nearly the exact design you are recommending. That was our original design plan.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0102274117023.html

I changed it based on comments that the stove was too far away from the sink. What is your opinion? The options are:
1) original plan with stove against living room wall but a good 6-7 steps to the nearest sink, but sink centered in opening, or
2) new plan with the stove on same counter-run with sink, sink not centered and potential hood overwhelming the view?

We were hoping the hood height would be high enough so that it wouldn't be all that bad...I too am concerned about the hood being an eyesore, so we are picking one with an attractive shape that is actually powder black, like a woodstove. Then when you stand at the entrance of the kitchen from the living room and look towards the woodstove in the corner of the den/TV room behind the kitchen, the pipe going up from the woodstove and the hood are the same color and nearly line up!

I think it would help if we made another sketch of the surrounding rooms and window locations so you all have a better idea of what we are up against.

This post was edited by mom3boys_fporfl on Fri, Jan 11, 13 at 14:35

Ok, I went back and checked your earlier post.

Since you used graph paper, I'm assuming your floor plan is to scale. Looking at it, it appears that you have about 6'3" from the front of where the cooktop would be along the LR wall to where the sink would be if it were centered. I measured that out on the floor and pretended that I was standing at your cooktop cooking, pivoted and walked to where the sink was. I'm 5'4" and I made it in 2 1/2 steps.

No, I agree that it may not be the most desirable right now, but I think that your gain by moving it is far outweighed by the inconvenience of where it's new position is which is the entry into the kitchen from the DR and Den. With rowdy boys and a DH , you're going to have to move out of the way A LOT for them making their way to the garage, pantry, fridge, etc.

Adding a pot filler will solve 1/2 your problem during pasta time and then a forceful "Get out of the way guys!" I think will be much more functional for you.

I would still suggest changing your garage door swing to swing it into the garage. And I'd also take that bit of space behind the fridge and create a sort of "cubby hole" both for the garage and the pantry (I'm thinking it could be a place to store paper towels, toilet paper, etc.)

I'm not sure how the pipes issue affects the entry from the LR to the kitchen and whether or not you could push the opening toward the garage door but it might be worth checking into it. Doing so would gain you a good bit of counter space to the left of the cooktop that you could still use as your appliance and microwave center.

I'm hoping this makes sense and when I have more time, I'll try to mock it up in photoshop so you can visualize what I'm explaining.

HTH!!

Stacylh,

Thank you so much for this feedback and for looking at our design in such detail. Yay!

My DH and I reviewed all you've written and don't worry about mocking up what you mean in photoshop: your explanations are clear enough (and I'd feel guilty about you doing all that work just for us!). Anyway, we thought about moving the stove, and the main drawback is that putting the vent in that spot would require putting vent pipes through through the joists in the floor in the second story above the kitchen. Even though our initial design did not have a vent hood (even though the drawing shows one (KD error) - we were going to put an ATR microwave there and not worry too much about venting), we've since read alot on GW to encourage us to go ahead and put one in.

So...your initial comment was that 48" would be ideal between the stove and the edge of the peninsula, so we are thinking the easiest way to solve the problem is to give you the 48". So we are going to scale back the length of the peninsula and have a bigger opening to the dining room to the kitchen. We'll end up with only 2 overhead cabinets instead of 3, with perhaps a 7" open shelf area for wine bottles or something like that.

We love your idea about what to do behind the fridge!

Please check out the plan view of the *current* entire first floor area that is in the general vicinity of the kitchen.

Any other feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Those pesky vent pipes :) Are you using a gas, electric, or induction cooktop?

The reason I ask is that I've had an electric range more than once in the past with an ATR microwave and NEVER had any issues. I currently have a gas cooktop mounted in the island (not sure what the previous owner was thinking) in which the downdraft is broken that I'm not paying to repair since our kitchen reno is only a couple months away...lol.

Yes, shortening the peninsula will definitely help. The only concern I would have is placing your oven there. Are you planning on getting a separate cooktop and oven or one unit? If you were originally planning to do a separate oven (mounted underneath the cooktop), you might consider doing a microwave/oven setup similar to this:

[Traditional Kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Nashville Kitchen And Bath Fixtures Knoxville's Stone Interiors

And you might could even squeeze in a warming drawer at the bottom. Then you could add deep drawers under the cooktop for your pans, etc. so in essence you won't be losing any valuable cabinet space by having them separated.

Again, HTH!!

My husband just mentioned tonight that although it would be nice to do an induction cooktop, he wants to go with an induction range to save money on the granite countertop. I'm not sure if I'm all that concerned about the location traffic-wise, since our current range location is 90 degrees shifted to the space just left of the entrance to the dining room, and I've never had a traffic issue. Is that what your concern is?

If we were to go back to the idea of the the separate cooktop/oven, would you recommend doing the wall oven then underneath the proposed MW location, even if it means giving up the coffee/appliance space? It seems like the oven would be very far from the cooktop for practical purposes.

First, to address your husband's concern about the granite cost difference of going with a cooktop vs. range, it should be a wash. Yes, you'll add granite expense at the cooktop, but you'll deduct granite expense at the microwave area by doing a wall oven cabinet....make sense? The price for a cutout may well be offset by the finished edges savings, or there should be very little difference.

In your other location, when your oven door is opened, you really aren't blocking traffic flow because the kitchen entry is still open. Consider how you normally stand in front of an oven: is it directly in front or off to the side? If you normally stand in front of it, then I'm concerned about the peninsula being at your backside. It almost seems like a hazard to me. (And, honestly, you're probably going to experience inconvenience from this much more often than you would have had from the boiling water issue before...lol)

Your kitchen isn't incredibly large, so I really would not be concerned about the distance from the oven to the cooktop. Again, it'll be 2-3 steps at the most. I advise you to go into the space and visualize where everything will be placed and pretend to go back and forth. Most stride lengths are 2-3 ft, depending on height, so a 6-7 foot distance is not a big deal.

An added benefit of doing a separate wall oven is that the height it will be more ergonomically (sp?) situated for now and in the future.

As for the coffee/appliance space, I think you could easily tuck it into the space to the right of the microwave/oven location. You could even make it "hidden" with a pull out and up hinged door. Browse houzz.com for tons of options on this.

BTW, in every house until this one (that's 9 houses in my lifetime), it had a range. This house has a separate cooktop and oven and I LOVE it! I never knew what I was missing until having it and if I can help it, I will never go back.

What is it about the separate cooktop/oven that is so great? Is it all about not having to lean over the check the food/get the food out?

I can see your concern about getting food out of the oven in our new design. This wall oven idea would solve that problem. Remaining concerns:

1) Is the area to the right of the microwave sufficient landing space for the items taken out of the oven/microwave?

2) Would the wall oven be stealing too much counterspace now with the counterspace real estate (since we are cutting off some by expanding the dining room opening to 48" and also adding the wall oven to beneath the microwave)?

Thanks again for your help, stacylh! (Would anyone else care to chime in?)

Your pantry and fridge area are so lovely, but the stove area is, I'm sorry, but really bad. I fully agree that the stove and oven will be hazardous and hard to use. The aisle is too tight behind it, and it being the entrance to the room makes it far worse. It is best to have the stove where traffic is not streaming by.

I would consider putting the fridge where you show the microwave, and making a nice cooking area on the walls where you now show the fridge and pantry, or put the stove on the run where you have the microwave, and relocate the microwave elsewhere.

Even without the stove in that location, I'd shorten the peninsula to widen the entrance.

There seems to be no dish storage anywhere near the sink and dw. Where the stove is now would be a great place for that.

Yes, I think you'll have sufficient landing space with a wall oven with built-in microwave above it.

I love the wall oven because it allows more than one person to help in the kitchen. One can be at the cooktop while someone else is removing items from the oven. Also, not having to bend over is very nice. I like having it more at eye level.

Again, I think the most functional layout would involve locating the cooktop/stove to another location, but we all have restraints to work within.

rhome410 and stacylh,

Thanks so much for the feedback. I too am having second thoughts about the stove location, but now DH is so enamored with the idea he doesn't see the problem, especially if we give a 48" space between the stove countertop and the peninsula. He thinks the 2 seconds you have the oven open, people can just wait. But I'm seeing now how it can be annoying while you're stirring and stuff to have people moving by, too.

So the dilemma now is:

a) keep design and deal with traffic, albeit good clearance behind you;
b) move stove to MW location in current design and deal with carrying potential pots of water *across* traffic path to the sink. Also, we would be restricted to an ATR MW at that location with no vent hood to the outside.

Opinions?

P.S. rhome410, we have a cabinet directly above DW for dish storage in the current design. See part 2 image.

What about your previous plan with the range against the stairs?

debrak_2008,

I think the plan with the range against the garage wall is out, since we are so enamored with the built-in refrigerator/walk-in pantry idea, for the sake of openness in the rest of the kitchen and not having to have so much cluttering cabinetry (probably not going to win any popularity contests with our local KD's, though).

So now we are strongly considering going back to our original plan that I posted to GW, prior to any change. The only drawback to that, as can be viewed in the prior post, was the issue of carrying a hot pot of pasta across the kitchen traffic path to drain it. We also can't figure out where we would put the MW if we didn't want an ATR MW.

Question for GW'ers: To clarify our dilemma, do I continue to post to either of these threads, or should I create a new thread??

Here is a link that might be useful: Original kitchen design

mom3boys, By original plan do you mean the first post on the linked thread? If so, can you add a prep sink over there? Then you wouldn't have to carry water hot or cold across the kitchen.

debrak,
Yes the original plan refers to the first post on the linked thread. I don't think we have room for a prep sink. My DH is going to prepare a drawing to scale this evening of the original plan with more detail, and more points of view, and then you will see that the distance between the edge of the proposed location of the stove and the sink is only about 7 ft. It seems a bit too luxurious to put a prep sink there just for draining purposes when it's only 3 steps away. Or do people do that all the time, just for such purposes? The initial reaction to that idea is, is it really worth it to sacrifice the counterspace for the once a week that we have to drain a pot of pasta?

mom3boys, I'm late to comment here, so if you've considered, and rejected, any of these ideas already, it's OK. I have some ideas that will not take (many) structural changes.

I noticed that your entry lines up with your sink in the OP above, meaning that it also lines up with your dirty dishes that haven't been loaded in the DW, and your dish drainer, if you use one. Since you're planning on getting an attractive vented hood, I'd switch the sink/DW and range, making the range more of a focal point. The DW can go to the left of the sink, eking out a little more counter space. If you don't want the DW opening into a high-traffic aisle, put it to the right of the sink. Yes, that will mean that the sink will be in the traffic path, but better the sink than the range. And you'll probably be prepping over the DW, but that's where I have prepped for 18yrs, and really don't have a problem. The normal flow is prep-->cook-->serve-->clean up-->load and start DW, anyway, and that may be the lesser of two evils (so to speak).

And now here's an off-the-wall thought: Have you considered putting the fridge where you have the microwave drawn, even if you have to cheat a few inches from the door to the entry? That door is drawn as 36" wide, but you can do with less--I have a door that is 30", that also has a counter that juts in 2" at hip height, and it works for us. It looks as if you have a little extra depth in that corner, too, so the fridge will be recessed slightly.

As for the microwave, I'd put it in a shallow cabinet where you now have the fridge drawn--a floor to ceiling, pantry-type cabinet, just deep enough to accommodate the MW, with a pull-out board underneath for landing space, if needed. The MW will still be near the fridge, the fridge will have the corner and counter to the right for landing space, and you can set up cabinets above and below the MW, or next to the fridge for a snack center for those growing boys. If you have that area organized for keeping the boys out of the pantry, then no one has to inch by the cook at the range, to access the pantry. Also, they can come from the LR, access the snack area and fridge, without passing through a work area.

The area that would be freed up behind the current fridge location can be split between the walk-in pantry and a garage cubby for recycling bins, garbage can, or for a closet for non-perishables, and large, seldom used items, such as a paper products, canner, turkey roaster, etc.

Or, here's a novel idea: It could be an access door to load groceries directly from the garage to the pantry. Back up the car, off-load the bags, stock the shelves. (Lol, please note here that there's no way I can even get my car in my over-stuffed garage, but I think this is a neat idea.)

Best of luck with your kitchen remodel. BTW, I think getting a vented hood is the best idea you've had--I love mine!

This post was edited by mama_goose on Sun, Jan 13, 13 at...

Ok, just checked the original thread... 4 growing boys, who might have the occasional tendency to move fast and furiously, sweeping past, without regard for safety and the convenience of the cook to enter the kitchen? The stove location just got worse for me. ;-) I feel like the range area is THE focus and main work station of a kitchen (taking priority over others because it's hot and has portable hot contents and knife work nearby), and it's getting last consideration in your layout.

As I said before, I can see why you are enamored with your pantry, but I've been happy with pantries located in areas other than the kitchen, and couldn't give it priority in this size kitchen, full of busy boys, and later, friends. I have 6 teens in my house, and they multiply on the weekends, so it's a different world as they get bigger and hungrier, and do more for themselves in the kitchen.

Dish storage would include silverware, glasses, cups, plates, bowls, water pitchers, serving bowls, and platters for me.. That one 24" wide by 12" deep cupboard seems inadequate to do the job.

Mom3, have you seen my finished kitchen? Since my project is complete, I don't drop in as often as I used to, but I just noticed there are some similarities to our spaces, with the kitchen open to a family room and a dining space. Just thought it might give you some layout ideas. We are VERY happy with the way our layout is working for us. I agree with others that your cooktop location seems problematic, especially with people needing to scoot past you to get to the fridge (or anything, really).

You'll notice that my primary prep space is between range and prep sink and, just as you desire, looks out into family room and large windows showing the yard. The way our peninsula is situated protects the cooking zone. The area next to the fridge is a snack/coffee zone and is also my primary dish storage area - so the kids can get what they need to set the table without being in my way while I'm finishing up the cooking part/pulling things out of the oven, etc.

Good luck, my kitchen was on the opposite side of our space, and thanks to the folks here, I had a lightbulb moment to find the right layout. With patience, you will too.

Here is a link that might be useful: controlfreakecs finished kitchen

Wow, I really like controlfreakecs' setup and now I really think that if you're not able/willing to move the stove to the other wall because of venting issues, that reversing your peninsula would solve a tremendous traffic flow problem for you. I'd put the stove just like she did behind the full wall segment overlooking your t.v. room/den (you might have to make it a full wall for a little longer than you originally thought) I'd leave at least 12" to the right of it.

Then you could move the sink toward the corner of the peninsula still overlooking the t.v. room OR you could put it on the back wall.

Whatever you decide about the sink and stove would then dictate what you do about the fridge and sink.

Good luck!

Wow, please keep the great ideas coming! Love the new insights from mama goose!! And thanks for the pics, controlfreakecs!

OK, at the risk of sounding extremely petty, if I switch the stove and the sink locations I do love the idea that the stove would now be the focal point upon entry from the living room. But what do I do about that dish drainer in such a prime spot? We always have something in that dish drainer. Do we hide it in one of the sink basins? Is there another solution?

Staceylh, I don't think we could ever put our sink along the back wall because we'd only have landing space on the right side of it, and not sure we'd want to spend long times doing dishes there. Again, the dish drainer problem would cause issues. So if we put our sink along the long peninsula overlooking the TV room, what does that necessarily dictate for the fridge? (It's not obvious to us.)

Also, unloading the dishwasher is going to be a pain to go back and forth (probably to cabinets along the back side of the LR wall) to put away all the glasses with no uppers near the sink/DW. Has anybody ever used pull-out drawers under half their sink to store cups/bowls? Just trying to think outside the box.

We are also thinking through the idea of switching the microwave and the refrigerator too. I love the idea that the fridge would have a more immediate landing space. The fridge in the main kitchen area might also be too bulky for such a small space?? We'll draw it out and take a better look.

THANKS SO MUCH!! This is really mental gymnastics, so thanks for hanging in there with me.

This post was edited by mom3boys_fporfl on Sun, Jan 13, 13 at 22:21

Sorry...meant to say it would dictate what you do about the fridge and microwave....dh has the flu and 2/3 kids with ear infections so my brain was/is very foggy.

I just meant that if you were to move the sink to the LR wall, you couldn't put the microwave or fridge there so you'd have figure that out. It's really not the best ideas that you've been thrown, though :)

mama goose's ideas are really growing on me since I couldn't convince you to move the stove to the LR wall :)

Good luck with it all! Can't wait to see your finished kitchen!

(And if there's anything else that's incoherent, I apologize in advance...lol!)

controlfreakecs,

How do you like your MW drawer? We might also be able to make use of one, but I'm not convinced yet that they're so wonderful.

stacylh, thanks again for all your comments, and I hope your family gets better very soon!

Oops, I assumed that if the hood was relocated, there would be room for dish cabinets. Since you don't want cabinets blocking that area, would you consider open shelves for often-used dishes? I see that you have glass doors elsewhere--what about a cabinet with glass sides, as well as fronts? Beekeeperswife has a beautiful example in her new kitchen.

Were you going to store pots and pans in the two large drawers drawn in the peninsula? If the stove is moved, could those be used for dish storage, and pots and pans drawers then be located in the former DW location?

If you put the fridge in the location that I suggested, and narrow the door by 6" (leaving 30" opening), I think that would help to block the view of the sink area, from the angle of the front entry. I don't recall reading about your budget, or the style of kitchen you want--would a deep single-bowl farm sink work for you? I have one that is 33" SS, and it holds my dish drainer on one side, with room for a cutting board on the other. I have almost no counter space on one side, so a deep sink is very convenient. Here are a few pics.

No counter space to the right:

Dish drainer and cutting board:

Dish drainer alone:

And one last question--is your hubby wishing that you'd never heard of GardenWeb? ;)

Here is a link that might be useful: Google search on single vs double sink

mama goose,

This would be the new long wall design if we switch the sink and stove. First impression is, gee, where do I put any dishes I'm unloading?? I am stumped on this one. Plus, dirty dishes would be piled on prime real estate, to the left of the sink, right where you would want to keep some open space, I would think. And when unloading the DW, I'm right at the DR entry there. Doesn't seem wise.

I am also going to send new plan view.

I'm feeling discouraged!

This post was edited by mom3boys_fporfl on Mon, Jan 14, 13 at 15:46

Here would be the plan view.

I just don't know about this.

Maybe I should just go back to the stove on the back side of the LR wall (as staceylh suggested), and just bring that pot of water back and forth to sink yelling "outta my way!" It may be the best option. Note that we would want to remove the wall/cabinet to the left of the sink in those designs.

Here is a link that might be useful: The original layout with stove on back side of LR wall

This post was edited by mom3boys_fporfl on Mon, Jan 14, 13 at 15:52

How about keeping your dishes in the drawers below your prep area? As for the dirty dishes, you can plan to put them right in the DW. I forgot how old your kids are but even young ones can be taught to put their dirty dishes in the DW.

Sorry, I know I ask you alot of questions but not sure I give you any answers!

Have you shortened the sink/stove wall by 8" in your current plan? Was 144", now 136"? I agree, that's cutting it pretty close, although I think you can get by with a more narrow trash pullout. I just measured mine--the opening is 11 1/4", door is 13", but it's a single, and isn't full extension.

Sorry to keep giving you 'get by' solutions. I know what it's like to have to shuffle elements to fit an existing space--I had to remodel without moving walls and plumbing, and had to do some work-arounds to get my kitchen organized--and it's far from perfect.

If you don't think any of the dish storage ideas I listed in my 11:05 post will work for you, then another layout probably will work out better--I hope you can still find a way to include a vented hood.

I think this is much better than with the stove and sink the other way, actually. I would extend that run back to the original length, and have a full 12" between the range and the wall. How about turning the cabinet on the end of the peninsula so that it faces the dw, and putting dishes in there? Not ideal to block the whole aisle, but a possible compromise. It'd offer more storage than the wall cabinet.

I also think this is better than before. Try a drawing with a peninsula on the other side (no uppers there, just the lower cabs and see how it works. I like having dishes on the fridge wall. They are there for drinks, for bowls of cereal, etc. and it really isn't far from DW, you just turn around and put them behind you.

So far, I like the MW drawer very much. I am quite short and hated the ubiquitous OTR microwave. The power is different from my old one, so I'm still learning how to not explode the kids oatmeal, but otherwise it's been great.

rhome410,

what an intriguing idea! Although now we're thinking if it's drawers on the end of that peninsula, it would be fairly easy. My main concern is glasses/cups, actually. Maybe we should go with taller glass cabs, glass on both sides, with glass shelves (maybe not so safe for the kids though).

controlfreakecs, can you clarify what you mean by "Try a drawing with a peninsula on the other side (no uppers there, just the lower cabs and see how it works)." I think you mean the peninsula overlooking the dining room, which indeed we didn't prepare yet. We will definitely do that, and post.

Thanks everyone!! It's starting to come together a little bit. Oh, and my other concern with this sink/stove switch is with the range in the corner near the pantry, an open oven door will block pantry entry. Is it not a big deal since it's just a pantry, and we're only opening it for a few seconds, or is it worth considering putting in a wall oven under the microwave to avoid this problem altogether??

Yes, with the peninsula coming out from the sink wall. The reason for this is to direct traffic out of your cooking zone. Right now, people have to squeeze between the end of the peninsula and the DW to get to the fridge or garage door (is that a main entrance in and out of the house?) and that is not ideal. By reversing the peninsula, you create a more direct walkway into those spaces.

I don't think opening the oven in front of the pantry is that big of a deal. Certainly not the issue it is right in the kitchen entrance, since it shouldn't be a high traffic area. However, if a wall oven is something you think you'd like and can afford with a separate cook-top, I would look into it as a possibility. Like I said, I'm short, bending over for the oven has never been a big deal for me, plus I do more roasting than baking and find I like the oven close to my other meal prep and stove top cooking.

controlfreakecs, Due to the location of the dining room table, the walkway to the upstairs, and the entrance to the back TV room, we couldn't change the entrance to the dining room. Right now when we sit at our dining room table, the main walkway is between the table and the window, and the folks on the chimney-side of the table are pretty much squished against the wall. If we switch it around, folks would be squished against the window, which seems strange, and the entrance to the upstairs would be a 90 degree turn at the table, a 90 degree turn to the stairs, and then the stairs turn 90 to go up. Too weird. Even if we had oodles of money and changed the direction of the stairs to go up (which would not work out well for upstairs), from the kitchen, it would still be hard to go behind the person sitting at the end of the dining room table closest to the kitchen to get to teh TV room. Here is our overall room layout again, but the table is a large rectangle that seats 6 (we have 4 kids) and is not drawn in.

mama goose -- My DH is actually very grateful for the feedback from GW! We don't want to spend this amount of $$$ without having thought everything through!

This post was edited by mom3boys_fporfl on Mon, Jan 14, 13 at 23:50