Well first, congratulations on the birth of your new daughter! What a wonderful holiday season you all must have had with a precious new life. I am also green with envy that at nine weeks she is already sleeping through the night -- infants and their sleeping patterns, go figure.

With that being said, without a doubt I believe mom2lilenj's plan is going to prove much, much more workable and user-friendly than the first (drawn on graph paper). I am really concerned that the dead-corner with the wall oven / fridge will be an accident(s) waiting to happen because there just doesn't appear enough room to move (things out of the oven, out of the way ...). My husband's parents had a house with a similar kind of dead-end layout and I nearly tore my hair out every time I tried to cook in there -- inevitably someone (or a dog) would come to talk to me or do their own thing over there and I would be trapped. When you're carrying something hot out of the oven or trying to put stuff in or take stuff out of the fridge / freezer, you need some elbow room.

I know this is my personal take, but I'd just hate for you and / or your children to get frustrated or hurt (like accidentally stepping on a foot sort of thing).

To my eye, mom2lilenj's sorta U-shaped plan seems to be practical not only from a solo cook's point of view, but also with thought to cooking with your (now) five year-old as well as potentially having your son and younger daughter come into the space. More wiggle room.

I also like the long(er) sweeps of countertop and ample landing areas near your range and fridge. In both the plans you have the sink overlooking your Family Room which I think is briliant! There's the romance of having the sink under a window, but I think having that visual connection to the Family Room while you (or whomever) is cleaning up, loading the dishwasher, etc., will prove to be a welcome relief every single night of your life.

And without a doubt, I think the latter plan will prove more salable, less confusing to potential buyers. (I know you wrote you're planning being there for the long-term, but one never knows ....)

thinks2hard, congratulations on your new daughter and soon-to-be new kitchen!

Congratulations on the birth of your baby...and the sleep filled nights! I know the absolute joys of both, although the baby is the best.

I agree that mom2lilenj's plan is better of the 2 you show...I'll watch for your drawing of your other idea. I was getting the uniqueness of your plan and how you could access the little peninsula from sink and oven sides, but the fridge location really killed it for me. You will want snackers and table setters to get to the fridge without going through the work areas. You also want room for those little ones to become real kitchen helpers and participants, which the tight spaces and crowded traffic paths won't allow.

To have wall ovens in mom2lilenj's plan, I'd decrease the dish storage hutch to 3 ft, have the fridge in the middle and the oven on the end nearest the cooktop.

I will alsop agree that the second plan is better. I would modify it though and not put cabinets down to the countertop all the way across that run next to the fridge. That could be very useful landing space soming into and out of the fridge. I htink the SZ opening on the left (right hinge, right?) would be fine if you have landing spaceon the left.

Another option would be to pull the bases on that side out to 30" and gain a little more room that way. If you use 15" uppers, you still have 15" below instead of 12" (plus the inch or so overhang of your countertop). That would also line up more closely with a standard depth fridge.

Welcome back thinks2hard! Congrats on you're new baby! Doesn't it feel good to get that first good nights sleep?

I'm flattered you liked my layout suggestion. If I recall correctly I think that fridge and hutchlike area is extra deep to allow concealed storage for all your small appliances. But I think we were having trouble reconciling the soffit problems with the fridge location. Meaning the soffit is shallower than the fridge where it is. If I get a chance I can try and dig up the file and show that wall with the soffit.

Your idea of bumping out the sink is a unique one, but I think you'll have too little space right around the sink for dishes etc if you go with that big sink you wanted. More than likely the spill over will be on the peninsula which could get annoying. If you like the peninsula how about putting it on the sink side kind of rounded and make the cooktop side straight? The fridge is still far away from the table and family room, but could be workable.

Ah, it's good to be back here with you you all. :)
Thank you for the congrats. Our new daughter is a true joy, especially now that I'm getting sleep! Okay, back to work here...

I've seen the light. I agree. mom2lilenj's plan is the better one by far. I was just brain storming - trying something out and started getting excited that maybe I found a unique way to have a "sort of" island that could be stood around and function as landing space for fridge and oven also making the kitchen less "tunnel" like and giving me the option to have raised ovens (I don't bake often so counterspace is far more valuable than raised ovens anyway). With mom2lilenj's design I will want to go with a counterdepth fridge and think I would desire paneled since there it would be in full view from the family room. Mom2lilenj did say that even though it would be in full view that the main eye catcher from family room would be the hutch. Maybe that SZ I told you about is a sign? :)

What would it look like to have white cabs everywhere but the hutch like piece? Would the fridge stand out less if the hutch was the same color?

I'm jumping the gun here. I need to get my layout in concrete first. Here's the layout I mentioned thinking about yesterday.

With this layout it would probably be better to have the table/banquet area be a deep wall of cabinets with an office armoire type desk for computer. You see the designer talked me into having our dining area in that nook across from kitchen. I thought it was out of the question too small for us until we put a table in that spot and I saw how it could work for us and thought it would be nice to have my kiddo's sitting close to me while I'm in the kitchen. I also thought it would be nice to have a small "kitchen table" once we reached the point when we enlarge our family room (to the right) and possibly make the entire left side our dining area with a long table. So keep that in mind with the kitchen layout. It's just going to be awhile until we do that (We're doing the kitchen AND a bathroom right now).

Our original dining area with old and SMALL kitchen was in that front room of the house and the entrance to it from the old kitchen was where I have the cooktop placed in this layout. We took down walls when reconfiguring the space for the kitchen and now (unfortunately) after the fact I'm trying to think of every possible option that I can so I don't miss anything. Thus, the name thinks2hard.
Everyone around me thinks I've gone NUTS. Last year, I hired a designer and $1000 later I realized that I was pretty much thinking enough for the both of us. According to the designer, my husband, family, and friends I was thinking too hard. Then I get on here and find out that I've not thought enough!! :) Invaluable, this forum has been to me. I call you my friends! I want to hug you all! Okay, I'll stop now.

Still I like mom2lilenj's even though it will mess with my ceiling some, but I'm totally over that if it's the best layout. If it's the best one can anyone improve on it? Should the sink and dishwasher be swaped?
Here it is on graph paper.

Hi mom2lilenj - so glad to "see" you. :)

Yes, if the refrigerator is next to the deep hutch like cabinet, then it will stick out past the sofit above it.
I was thinking the hutch would extend all the way up to the sofit. While browsing through the finished kitchens blog I came across a picture that made me think it could look okay. The ceiling wouldn't exactly showcase like it was going to before, but if the kitchen would be more functional I'm sure there's a way we could make it look more like it was done intentionally. Like maybe run the the fridge cabinet all the way up to the tongue and groove ceiling since the fridge placement does fall in between beams (like the brick hood does in the picture below). I'd have to check but I think our beams are somewhere between 45" and 48" apart. This picture below actually made me feel better and more open to the idea of moving my fridge. I can imagine that there are sofits on either side of the brick hood to get a feel of what it would be like in my kitchen around the fridge cabinet.

It's an old picture, but here is a link to one showing our ceiling. It's what we have to work with. I put the link because it wouldn't resize for some reason.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee146/thinks2hard/IMG_6917.jpg

From another angle...

Here's another picture showing how I imagine the cabinet for refrigerator being built to hug sofit. I don't think you would really see the "hug" though too much because of the beams on either side.
The hutch to the left of fridge would of course just go up to the sofit and end with wall color over it - at least that's what I'm thinking.

So, with that - can there be any improvement on mom2lilenj's layout? Is it "the one"????
I need to know so I can close the deal on the SZ or not.
Was thinking it might be nice to put a chalkboard in top half like Julie pinkertons (sp?). Kids would think that was sooo cool. :)

Just for kicks - here's my first plan. The one we came up with help from the designer. The one drawn up before new walls, new electrical, new ceiling, new wood floor went in.
It would have been nice to have found this site beforehand. It's not too late though and husband has sympathized with me and agrees. :)

Original plan

Congratulations on your new daughter!

I don't have much to add about the layout, but one way you can have your "sort of island" is to have a counter height kitchen cart or easily movable portable island, especially if there's somewhere nearby where you can stash it if it's in your way. I once had a kitchen that had a similarly wide space between the fridge and sink and the cart really saved me, though at other times it blocked the service porch door.

Also, had a silly notion about integrating the fridge into the hutch: If you're having glass doors on the cabinets, you can do glass insets in the fridge door too, reverse painted trompe l'oeil, or maybe foiled sandblasting.

Is one option to move the dining table into the family room? If you do that will you have room for a family room? What do you use the family room for? Playroom, family TV room, etc?

We had talked about moving dining room to family room since we would like to do it in the future anyway after remodeling the family room (could be 5 years away). There is a bathroom and a laundry room to the right of family room. We'd like to make the existing garage another bedroom with bathroom/laundry room and take the living room 10-15 ft out to the right and have a great room with dining in it. The table would be where I put it in the drawing with windows around it.

Yes, we would still have some room for a family room with our small table in there. Currently, family room is family tv and always has toys out in it (great floor play space)- so not crazy about moving our table in there right now, but we'd like to have a table with windows around it back in that room eventually anyway - so we've considered it. Both our families live here and we're both from large families so I'm not a small dining table kind of gal', and I've down sized significantly with that smaller farm table you see in the pics that my designer talked me into...so I see a future with a table that will seat 8-10 especially as our family grows older. It will happen here in this house someday or we will move. I like the idea of having the small table in the kitchen though as well just not stuck on it.

I've pretty much settled on mom2lilenj's layout for our kitchen.

We've decided to build a straight wall that runs behind cooktop to the window wall to make that area only 24" deep and use the extra/wasted unreachable space behind it for the bathroom instead. We had built that area the way we did so that we could recess a full size 36" fridge in that space (as was in the original plan).

Should I bump out the sink/prep counter to 30"?

Here's another thing that just came to my mind tonight. Should I loose the door to the hallway from the kitchen. Because our bedrooms are back there we walk from the family room through the kitchen ALL the time, but if you walk straight through the larger opening and turn right you're headed for the bedrooms too. Once you're in the hallway there is a bathroom to your right, a bedroom across from it and 2 more bedrooms just beyond that across from one another.
We plan on enclosing our garage which is to the right of that front room and making it a master bedroom with bath.
I was wondering if I'd be okay with having the kids rooms closed off more to the kitchen and family room by closing that opening as there is no door there (and you can't put a door there)- it's just an opening. However, there is a door in that doorway from the front room to the hallway.

Could I have a much better kitchen plan by closing that doorway to the hallway or is it not worth loosing the opening?

Okay, what was I thinking? I don't think I would like loosing that doorway at all. It would really bug me having to go around from the kitchen to get to my baby and small children in their rooms. I just blocked it off to get a feel for it.

Onto another question:
I need a place for a microwave/convection oven. Should I put a shelf for one in the base cabs under the window? Or should it be up on a shelf to the right of the hood? I think it would "look" nicer not to have it there. I thought that maybe I should put it under the cooktop with a warming drawer under it and put the wall oven under the window? This way the wall oven wouldn't have to be so low.

Yeah, I agree closing off the door would be annoying and it really doesn't buy you anything more with layout.

About the microwave, do you think eventually the kids will use it? My oldest is 7 and she started to use it for simple snacks. If so how about putting it near the fridge in the hutch, either undercounter or behind the covered storage area?

I think the wall oven under the window would be nice especially if you pull the counter out to 30" that area would make a nice baking center. However if you pull out the counter to 30" you would have less standing room infront of the cooktop.

When you moved the dining table into the family room I had an idea of moving the kitchen around a bit, but I didn't have time to fully formulate the idea. If you could "steal" some of the family room for the kitchen you might be able to put in an island. ie. swap the kitchen area with the eating area and expand the kitchen into the family room a bit. I'll see if I can get some time tonight to put it to paper, unless you hate the idea.

Hi mom2lilenj,
I made a mistake in getting overly excited that I felt really good about the first layout you came up with (the one spoke of in this post). The mistake was not in liking your layout. The mistake was getting all excited that I thought I was so VERY close to KNOWING what our "genera" layout will be and having PEACE about it. Boy, did I fool myself.

I told this woman here that is selling all of her almost new high end appliances (for a steal) that I would buy her paneled SZ and her paneled integrated Bosch dishwasher both for $2250. She wanted 2400 for fridge and 500 for the dishwasher. She agreed to give us the 650 SZ for $2000 and the DW for $250. We are suppose to pick them up on Friday. She is long gone and has moved to another state while her expensive home here is getting forclosed and her realtor is handling this for her. She was told she could get the appliances out before foreclosure, but has to do it quickly which means selling them quickly and to someone local. I thought her subzero would be nice as I've always thought it would be neat to have one given that they boast about keeping produce fresh for longer periods of time and I'm really BIG on fresh produce with juicing like I do and making fresh smoothy drinks, fruit salads, and salads a lot! The fact that is was a built in one that can be paneled just was icing because I had thought that if I went with your plan where you see the fridge from the family room that I would want it to have a cabinet look to it instead of stainless. The thing is, the hinges are on the right which works well if I use your first plan as there would be landing space to the left of it.

BUT today, I've been going over and over this kitchen and it's almost made me sick to my stomach. That's pretty sad, isn't it?? You remember the sofit issue - I'm questioning whether when it's all done if I'm not going to like the way the refrigerator sticks out. I came to the point where I told myself not to care about it or consider it a sacrifice because I know that in the end I want to be happy with how the kitchen functions and feel that is more important than it to look great. I've told myself that cabinets going all the way up to the sofits are going to break up the straight line of the sofits you see anyway. I've told myself that even a hood would stick out (though not up high like the refrigerator will). I've told myself that from the family room angle it doesn't loook bad and that it's only from one angle really that it will not look quite right (the angle from the table and once you walk through those french doors and look to the left. Here are some pics. I've told myself that I just had the picture of a hood and cabs meeting up with that sofit for so long that it's just my mind playing with me. BTW - The sofit is 14.5 inches deep and just 6 inches in height.

{{gwi:1636925}}{{gwi:1636925}}

Okay, there's some wackiness going on in my post above.
I accidently submitted it before I was ready to.
Let me explain the crib mattress standing on the ladder. Oh, I'm suddenly laughing histarically having just typed that. Does anybody think this is as funny as I do???
Well, just humor me. But seriously the crib mattress is representing my fridge. The blue tape on the mattress is marked off at 84" inches high which is how tall the SZ is if it were to be there without cabinet or crown molding. The blue tape on the ceiling is measured out to how far it would stick out past sofit. If the fridge was there it could be centered in between the two beams it is situated between and the hutch like cabinet could follow to it's left. I decided today that I needed to get a feel for how the fridge would look there and use somekind of visual and when I did it started my head spinning over this. Whew, that was some good comic relief I just had though.

Okay, would you place the fridge there? If I tucked the fridge back in the spot I had it in originally, I could scoote the cooktop closer to the french doors (with just 16" on the left side of it) and put a prep sink at the end of the counter closest to the hallway entrance and fridge wall with 3-4ft prep space in between it and the cooktop and still have that wall o' storage over by the fridge. I could put the oven over under the window still (to have oven not lay so low and separate baking and cooktop areas, ya think?) If the fridge was back, which way should the door on the fridge swing?? With the plan above there would be a prep space both to the right and left directions from the fridge. If it was to go there should I go with a french door fridge like I had originally planned??? I just don't know anymore. I need to at least HURRY and just determine whether I should pass on the SZ.

I'm curious what your thoughts were. Were you thinking somewhere along the lines of moving the french door opening into the kitchen area over to the other side??

I still want to know, if it was you - do you think you would put the fridge sticking out from the sofit like we have it in your plan? Can you imagine it better with the pics I posted?

Here is some half baked ideas along the lines of swapping the eating area and kitchen area

Without moving the doors:

and with getting rid of the 32" door and moving the french doors

Thats really good prices for those appliances. If they are fairly new (and working well) I would get them and work them in somehow. You'll pay that for a new french door fridge alone. I think you can make the fridge look nice even though it will come out past the soffit. Especially with the panal fridge, I think with a liitle moulding and trim it'll look nice, but if you really don't think you'll like it there are other options for where to put the fridge.

Mom2lilenj,
Your first one I don't like because the walkway through those french doors is the only entrance into the living/family room from the front door and so to walk straight into the kitchen like that is not so inviting, I don't think.

I like option 2 but maybe with some tweeking. Though I started thinking that I'd probably prefer the sink/cleanup to face the family room instead of towards the table - especially if we add onto the family room and extend it out to the right in the future.

Another thing to remember is that while I like the flip flop, it needs to be far superior in function as a whole (for the house and kitchen) in order to be worth moving the doors and redoing some electrical.

Here's another idea. We could possibly eat into the front room some. I don't know if that would look funny in that front room though.

I erased and drew it in my old drawing, so the new opening my be a little hard to make out, but I positioned it to where you can still have the french doors connected and open out on the walls. Also that I would have to check and see if we can bust out that 33" wall so that the corner to the right of the sink could have counter L to the cooktop.
It's made of thick concrete block (old exterior wall). If we did take it out we'd probably have to put a pillar on the outside corner of counter to left of dishwaser to support a longer stretch on the header up there.

Either that or we could loose the french doors and make the opening a little wider even. The doors are original to this house built in 1951, so we kinda wanted to keep them in the house somehow. We have thought of putting them on the east wall of the front room and put a doorway opening to what is now a garage (that cannot be used as such so we want to make it a 4th bedroom/master)over there.

The reason why I presented the swapped kitchen/eating area was because you seemed to really want to have a peninsula or island where the kids could have an easier time to help out in the kitchen.

Recessing into the front room would eliminate the fridge sticking out past the soffit problem. With that design I would think a prep sink near the cooktop would be nice. It would keep you from having to get something out of the fridge walk over to the sink, wash it and chop it then back track to the cooktop. What's nice about the layout too is the cook is protected from cross traffic. Good for kids. If you move the french doors I would move them to line up with the 5' walkway through the kitchen/eating into the family room. If you have to move it, might as well move it out of the kitchen zone.

Come to think of it, if you recess that whole wall into the front room you could put back in your wall'o'storage idea.