I think the logs are joists, no matter what they look like. I have some of those, but not actually in the oldeset part of the house. They support part of my kitchen, as it was first constructed as a small add-on room, then later subsumed in a grander remodeling. So just because the joists are logs, it doesn't necessarily mean increased age.

Logs indicate a more primitive construction style but the primitiveness may not indicate age, just a certain level of expectations as to what would be good enough under the circumstances.

The defects in the kitchen floor may, or may not, be a result of joist problems, though the fact that upper floor is OK, probably means it is more the under framing of the first floor rather than the sills and collar beams. Spacing that far part may require not so much sistering as inleting additional supporting members under the floor. It's looking more and more to me from this distance that you should consider a top-down approach, rather than jacking it up and going at it from the underside. You really might want to try and locate a competent old house mechanic and have a thorough inspection from a sympathetic expert, not just a typical "home inspector" who may not be able to see beyond the house's oddities. It certainly would be worth your while in saving you time from pursuing this building if it's too much of project for you, or your resources.

One thing to think about that occurred as I was pondering your unusual situation: under the circumstances can you get a mortgage with only having essentially a life estate but not title? And if not, then you would be sinking your resources into this house, and perhaps not able to extract them should you ever decide living there isn't what meets your needs. Could you transfer your interest and recoup some of the costs? I bring this up because you are talking about a very serious level of commitment of time and cash to do the kind of work you're asking questions about. It's not like you're talking basically about a little fix-up and some nice paint choices. These are the kinds of projects that lead to hefty second mortgages ....! (And sometimes second marriages when the first one flames out under the stress of unending, and expensive, renovations.)

Molly~

Logs are, I believe, more properly called sleepers, but they function the same as joists.

At one time that was the common way to build. The logs would be laid in place, and then broad axes and/or adzes would be uses to level them.

If the logs are in good shape, there's no reason why they wouldn't still be perfectly fine for the home.

The major concern would be the spacing and modern appliances. If you're in doubt, have an architect or structural engineer do an inspection.

"Sleepers" are typically 1x or 2x material laid on an existing floor to support a new floor.

An example would be if you had a concrete slab and wanted to install hardwood on top. You might fasten 2x4 "sleepers" to the crete floor, then install the hardwood. Perhaps tar paper or other vapor barrier would be installed 1st.

I believe the reason log joists haven't proven to hold up well is because they are usually undersized for the span. They are nearly round, and don't have the depth to support what they have been asked to support.

Example: a 12'-9" span may require a 2x10, depending on species. It is the 10" dimension (9-1/4" actual) that gives most of the deflection strength. In many cases they didn't use 10" logs for spans of this length. Not to mention spacing on 16" centers.

> The logs would be laid in place, and then broad axes
> and/or adzes would be uses to level them.

> Our house has logs, some of them with bark still on
> them. It is the most solid, square house I have ever
> lived in.

That's what this looks like: Some of the logs did in fact have bark still on them. And the ends looked hand-cut.

> the fact that upper floor is OK, probably means it is
> more the under framing of the first floor rather than
> the sills and collar beams. Spacing that far part may
> require not so much sistering as inleting additional
> supporting members under the floor.

This is what it's seeming to be, to me: That the structure overall is fine, but there wasn't enough to hold up the first floor once they turned it into a kitchen that had a refridgerator, an oven, a hot water heater (and not just to the side either - kinda just THERE), and at one point some kind of furnace unit. I think it was just all too much for that kind of span without any type of joist underneath it.

I'm setting up a time for someone who has experience doing this kind of work to come look at it. It sounds as if my idea of going through the top is potentially appropriate, and could save us on labor cost, and allow us to do some of the sweat work - namely, tearing out the old floor, then installing insulation and vapor barrier, possible run some new circuits across to the other side while we have the opening to do so, and put in a new t&g plywood subfloor - though the budget is looking as if the subfloor might get a coat of sealer plus get covered with something like an indoor/outdoor carpet remant until we're caught back up financially from the contractor expense, before we take on the rest of the kitchen remodel.

And Molly, I very much appreciate your candor - I'm making everyone I know promise to be really direct in telling us their concerns about our considering doing this, and there's nothing you've said that isn't realistically a problem. But here's how we're looking at it so far, and answers to some of your questions:

> under the circumstances can you get a mortgage with only having essentially a life estate but not title?
Nope. No mortgage. However, we are prepared to sell our current house in which we have probably 70k or more in equity which would cover most of the big contractor projects (roof, this project, and my parents have said that they will consider setting up a 20k line of credit for us to use for this as well. We also have no debt except for two car loans that will be paid in 1 and 2 years (though the cars will last much longer), and a relatively student loan that will be paid in three years - no credit card debt. We live a simple life with experience in keeping our basic living expenses low and with living amid the ongiong chaos of renovation.

> And if not, then you would be sinking your resources
> into this house, and perhaps not able to extract them
> should you ever decide living there isn't what meets
> your needs.
Yes, that's clearly a risk that we take very seriously and have talked about for hours. Our final decision came down to a few different things: First, the house we're in now is already a risk, because it is on leased land without a long term (99-year type) contract, and we could lose absolutely everything if the family that owns the land in this community decided to sell this extremely valuable bay-front area to high-end developers, so we'd only be transferring a risk instead of eliminating it, but we'd be transferring it at least to something where at least we'd be guaranteed the option of staying there for life. Second, we are both in jobs (me in particular) which are both almost guaranteed will be there for as long as we want to work there (we're state employees, what can I say) plus at least my job is my absolute dream job - teaching at a community college, summers off to do some very focused work on this - so I have over 15 years before I'd consider retirement, so we know we're not going to move. And last, with all the work it needs, we just can't discount that it's been our dream to do this - get an old house in the country and fix it up. Except this way we don't have the fix up expenses on top of a hefty mortgage, we just have the fix-up expenses. And ultimatly we'd be living in a beautiful old house on 10.5 acres of land in the country.

> Could you transfer your interest and recoup some of the
> costs?
Nope. If we walk away, we walk away.

> These are the kinds of projects that lead to hefty
> second mortgages ....! (And sometimes second marriages
> when the first one flames out under the stress of
> unending, and expensive, renovations.)

Oh, yes, we know. Which is why we're doing a contract about what would happen with the house if we were to end our relationship! We're no fools. But we also have good support systems which from our experience can make all the difference inthe world, from people to call on to come over and help when a project gets too overwhelming and we need it to be DONE a lot faster than its going, to good friends who will take one of us in and help both of us work things out if we need a day or week or month or two of breathing room. Plus, as I said, we've done this. Both of us have things that make us nuts when things are in chaos, but still we've lived with that chaos, and know that some things that would make other people nuts - such as our friends who said that they couldn't even move in until every bit of plaster was repaired and every room was painted and the kitchen was fully remodeled. Those things don't get to us, as long as we have a way to escape it, which we do.

Joist - A piece of timber laid horizontally, or nearly so, to which the planks of the floor, or the laths or furring strips of a ceiling, are nailed

I would not be too quick to rip up the floors. There is a chance the wood used for a subfloor are hefty beams in the 2 to 3 inch thickness range. I cannot see how a 4-5 foot span could hold up any other way. My house was built in 1880s but is "finished" lumber, but does have big spans. The subfloors are 3 inches thick. The electricion showed me the block he cut out to get a floor plug in. He had to get longer blades for his saw!

It sounds like you are going into this with your eyes as wide open as possible.

One other thing I hope won't mind if I add (in my famously candid - and sometimes inadvertently tactless) way: I was wondering if you have to do all of this work right up front, or if you can arrange to do some of it after you take possession? I realize your situation is very unusual, by I have always observed that (and not the least in my own reno projects), that the best work/projects/changes etc., happen when you take a deliberate go-slow attitude. In my own experience, at least 50-60% of my initial plans have been discarded for better ideas once I let the house "tell" me what was really needed. Something I wouldn't known until I had lived in the house. Can you build this period of discovery into your arrangements? Except for truly dangerous structural issues (a they really are few), almost all urgent reno stuff can be postponed, for awhile. With old houses far more is lost with haste, than when you take your time.

And one other thing ..... I wondered when you described your situation whether living in a semi-public space would get to be annoying. Even if there was signage indicating it was a private residence you still might feel a bit in a fishbowl on lovely spring afternoons when people are there and just can't get it into their heads that you are NOT there for their convenience. (I once lived in a rental house in a bird sanctuary, and it drove me crazy. I just felt like I couldn't garden in my tatty old clothes, or leave my bag of garbage on the front porch till morning.) Something to think about if that kind of thing would bother you, too.

With the equity from your current house, you could buy another house, do a loan and have a more liquidatable asset. I have no idea how old you and your partner are, but I can tell you from the distal end of my 50's, the things I believed I knew about the direction of my life when I was in my 30's simply did not turn out to be true. (Not bad, so much as totally unexpected and different.) We live in a "forever house" - family property - and for many years I would never have even thought it might be possible to ever live anywhere else. But by now I can see that a "normal" life is full of curveballs and you need to have flexibility to roll with it. Emotional flexiblity, and financial flexibility.

Molly~

The logs or poles are excellent shapes for columns, like utility poles. But for beams (joists), the shape is not ideal. Since this is a crawl space, supporting these log joists in the middle of their length should be easy and very effective.

Whoa!! Yourself!

Logs are just fine, as long as not insect damaged. One day we had a literal SWARM of flying termites come up through our old heart pine floors. Turns out there were termites in the ground underneath. Had to treat a number of times with Boracare, and also treated the exterior ground. Used Orange Oil inside the house as I didn't want poison in the house. Believe it or not the termites were also coming up from the stone floor in the kitchen right through cracks in the stone, which I think was just laid over gravel. We finally got rid of the termites and they didn't actually crawl up the walls. Gees. Disgusting. Many thanks to the exterminators for coming out instantly when I saw the flying termites.

So, no matter what you do with your logs, be sure to proactively treat for termites!

What did you end up doing with your house?