It sounds like the paint never dried. It's not the paint....ProMar 200 is a quality paint. If the paint has never dried and then you shower and moisture ends up sitting on paint that isn't dry that is what happens. When you repaint, use the fan in the bathroom, don't shower for a few days...whatever you have to do to let that paint completely dry. Also, showering with the door open for the first month can help as well. Paint takes about that long to fully cure.

It's obviously only happening in the bathroom. Right?

Your problem is called, surfactant leaching.

Here is a link that might be useful: Leaching

She said she was wiping actual paint off the walls though....that's more than leaching, unless she actually thinks it looks like paint running off the walls and it's not.

Hmmmm...some pigment may be coming off with the surfactants present in the "leaching".

Jazzy...also...
How long after painting was done did the 1st hot-shower happen?

Faron

I think it's that Water Whitening business. I've seen it a couple times in person (my own bathroom is what started my quest for info) and several subsequent posts about it on forums.

I have noticed that the cheaper paints can let go of color along with moisture and surfacants. The better grades/brands recover from the water whitening quicker and more gracefully. And, they have a better chance of releasing the surfacants to the point of the problem completely going away with time. I'm sure the PQI guy could explain, dunno.

It can look like the walls are bleeding and people's first inclination is to wipe them down. I kinda think the best thing to do is leave it alone. Make sure the bathroom is well ventilated, let it dry out naturally each time and just wait it out til one day it just goes away.

"rmichael
postingpro
YaBB God
Re:Here's One for ya: Water spotting, Weeping
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2006, 05:54:19 PM » Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lori,
My first thought was that the paint film had not yet fully cured, however, I forwarded your question to John Stauffer, technical director over at The Rohm and Hass Paint Quality Institute
www.paintquality.com
Here is the PQI's reply:

"Water-whitening" can sometimes happen with latex-based coatings. Enough moisture makes its way into the coating film to swell the polymer particles, which normally are not 100% fused even though the pant has dried, resulting in micro-gaps which scatter light, thus causing the whiteness. It of course is not noticeable with white paints, but it can be with clear latex films, and with medium and dark colors. Tinted paints are generally made with more surfactants (soaps) than are white paints, which increases the tendency, because the surfactants increase water absorbancy by the dried paint. When the streaks dry out, the light scattering drops off, and may disappear altogether. As the shower is used over time, and condensation extracts the surfactants from the paint, whitening tendency will decrease."

Just the nature of the acrylic beast..Makes sense to me.... "

Summary.

Use bathroom paint. PermaWhite, not ProMar200.

Michael

Hi, Thanks for all the follow-ups. The color I used is called "surfer". It's a med teal color. I was having problems getting the paint to dry when I started. I put fans in the bathroom and had the door and window open for ventilation but, nothing seemed to work. I called Sherwin Williams twice and all they told me was that it would take over 48 hours to dry. I've painted this bathroom before but, never had this problem. The paint color really is running down the wall. Every morning there's teal blue droplets of paint in the shower and sink. If I wipe the wall down with a damp cloth the paint color is on the cloth. I did some stenciling around the top of the room and the stenciled on paint has held up fine it's just the Promar 200 that's running. What's a better quality bathroom paint, something other than SW. What can I do? Do I need to re-prime the walls and start over?

Sherwin Williams offers a bathroom paint.

Michael

Here is a link that might be useful: Bath Paint

Aura Bath&Spa by Benjamin Moore will take care of your problem.

Ok I have read each of these comments. My husband is a contractor and has used aw paint for many many years. We just painted r house within the last 6 months and the paint is literally wiping off the walls. He prepped the walls like he always does. In the bathrooms we waited 48 hrs in one bathroom and 72 hrs in the second bathroom and the paint is running off the walls. We have contacted the store to be treated like dirt. What's funny is the cheap paint that was on the walls when we moved in is doing great after being on the walls for 8 yrs. we have one room left with the original paint still on it. It looks do bad in my house that I am embarrassed for anyone to even come over. Now sherwin Williams did say they would replace the paint but like they say it's only as good as the paint under it. So r we still going to have the problem. We don't even have to use a wet rag the kids can rub against the wall and it comes off there clothes. Oh we used 400 and 200 and it does the same and tge paint came from 2 different stores. We even did r our experiment with I tinted paint and with the tinted paint. Guess what the white paint didn't wipe off but the tinted did.

400 and 200 are still bottom tier products

Was the old paint oil based?

Even if it was the cheapest paint in the world, it shouldn't be behaving that way. There is an underlying issue.

True enough ^^

I'm a porter at Havertys furniture. We use gallons of Promar 200 endlessly. It needs to dry overnight, before I can rehang pictures. My guess is that using it in a bathroom may make the dry time quite a bit longer.

Pro mar is not bad. We use it for almost all of our trim but not very often on walls. I'd recommend sherscrub. I recall doing a house, 2 coats and the color being all screwed up as if not properly mixed. It looked odd. A third coat cleaned it right up. In bathrooms soap residue can mess with your paint and it only takes a tiny bit of residue. Your problem sounds unique. I'd contact the paint representative for that stores area. He may come out and check it out for you and offer tips or paint replacement.

Did you realize that this comment feed started 10 years ago? I was considering buying this paint today. I hope the issue has been resolved.

I recently had my entire main floor painted with pro mar 200 and it is a disaster. 2 coats were applied. The main floor bathroom immediately became streaky due to water drops by the towel bar. These streaks are long and noticeable. There is no shower in that bathroom. Other walls not near any water also became streaky. Walls show handprints immediately. Even after we repainted certain area (like front entry way) the hand spots seemingly reappeared. Something has to be wrong with this paint. We used flat (at the suggestion of Chris our paint) which I realize now is a dreadful mistake although apparently it saved him money. So disappointed.

Flat paint is not washable. It doesn't really matter which brand of paint you use.

Ya....I realize this thread started looooooonng ago!

PG22 is right, as usual! Couple exceptions tho'.... We were brave about 5 yrs ago, & used C2 MATTE in our entry. The color is called Linus I believe. It's a $50/gal paint, but it washes great!!

The terms "Flat", "Matte", & "Eggshell" can get confusing. There is also a "Dead Flat" in ACE'S Clark+Kensington line. That's not washable.

Poor Babs! I wouldn't have used the 200 if it was GIVEN to me!

Faron

For full disclosure here, I should mention that I'm in the retail paint world... 17 years now! I'm at an upscale, busy paint/hardware/Power-equipment/decorating/Furniture, etc., store.

I could help you with anything from painting....to a $2,500+ Yoder smoker, Traegers, Webers, Stihl chainsaws, & a $5,500 TORO Zero-turn! Uffda! :-)

We are paint geeks here too! C2 has been our flagship brand since 2006. We're an ACE store for the most part, but handle lots of other stuff! We of course have the ACE C+K brand, & the ACE-Valspar lines too. On my own, I've used some FPE paints at home too. WOW....that's some unreal stuff!!!

Faron

Yes old ...

If there is moisture running down the walls ... that is the issue. Even in the old oil base days of gloss in the bathroom ... if the walls are wet, it is hot soapy water that is sticking to the walls ... its soap.

Hello There,

I am in a process of paint product selection for a school like building, the expected painted are will be interior walls, stairs walls, ceilings and bathroom walls and ceilings any recommendation for the best paint. I went to Sherwin Williams and Vista paint and they recommended following products.

Vista Paint :

7000 Acriglo Semi Gloss

8400 Carefree Semi-Gloss

Sherwin Williams ProMar 200 Semi Gloss

We bought a brand new "spec house" almost a year ago, and one of my complaints has been the streaky, unwashable nightmare that the doors and trim are - our contractor used Promar 200 Semi Gloss. Stay away, it's garbage!.

And that was semi gloss----It's obvious this paint is a waste of everyone's time and money. Makes me mad.

I use promar 200 regularly to paint commercial and residential property's. It is so good i even used it to paint my living areas and hallways. Love it and the price cant be matched. You will need to prep your walls though cant be lazy.

I used It to paint our new house at the guidance of an interior designer. I’m not sure if the painters put 1 or 2 coats. It looks okay, but I had another painter come by and said that he doesn’t think that the previous painters put on 2 coats.

The problem I have is that it’s not as wipeable as I thought it would be. Im going to add another coat to a few areas to see how it hold up.

You don't use pro mar 200 on trim. It is not enamel. It is wall paint. You don't use it on floors. It is wall paint. If you you want to spend twice as much on wall paint because you think high price is better, okay lmao.... Don't use flat paint in bathrooms. Never tint primer. Don't apply paint too thick. Multiple thin coats is always better. I've been painting multi million dollar homes for twenty years. Listen to me.

@Jason Hollis what are your thoughts on using Promar 200 low sheen?

That is my go to wall paint for new construction because it sprays well. I used to use pro mar 200 'satin' before they switched to zero VOC pro mar 200. I liked it a lot because it covered really well.

The low sheen is a good paint. It may not cover as well as you would like, but it touches up well, dries fast and it is a durable paint. I do like the "low sheen" it has. It doesn't smell bad while applying.

I sometimes use Cashmere for walls. Its a great paint for large walls, smooth wall applications with high visibility, or painting over loud base colors. Provides a flawless velvet type finish. It reminds me of the old 200 satin.

I always use pro mar ceiling paint for ceilings. It is dead flat. Nothing is flatter or chalkier than that stuff. Highly recommend.

The comment on "Enamel" made me grin!

The term itself means NOTHING....especially now!

Never did!

Huh??!?! Why?!??!

NOBODY seems to know this......

* 100+ years ago, all there was, was "Oil/Alkyd-based" paints!!!

* At some point, when "Marketing" entered the game, paints were advertised as....."It has a durable hard finish, like the ENAMEL on your Teeth"!

* In the 70's, when Latexes were being trotted-out......JUST GUESS what advertising-term was used for them........ ;-)

* I've seen posts in various Forums on Paint, & from Big-Box "Help" Forums, that said......"You need a paint with a little Enamel mixed in....".

* Oh. Dear. God. I almost lost it (angry....)!!!

* Therefore................people who INSIST that "You need an Enamel" don't really know what the Hell they're talking about, in this narrow matter!

* Pro-Mar for Ceilings!??! YUCK. C2's Ceiling-paint looks gorgeous....VERY FLAT. BM's 509-Series Ceiling is Dead-Flat, even with a high colorant load for dark ceilings.

* Almost ANYTHING will look better on ceilings than pmar....

Faron

Enamel means paint that dries hard and brittle. (For trim,doors, cabinets... etc) Not flexible, stretchy and spongey. (most interior wall paints and exterior paints are not enamel) SW Cashmere is enamel. SW PoClassic is enamel. SW Emerald Urethane is enamel. SW Pro Mar 200/400 is NOT enamel. SW Superpaint is NOT enamel.

Enamel cannot be added. It is simply a different type of paint.... ol

Again......so may misconceptions in knowledge out there!

Wow.

EVERYTHING is called "Enamel" now!

I've explained why the term is literally useless.....

Faron

Again.... I have been painting custom houses for over twenty years. I have used nearly every brand and type of residential paint available. ENAMEL PAINT DRIES HARD AND BRITTLE. NOT ALL PAINTS ARE ENAMEL. FOR GOOD REASON. SOME PAINTS ARE DESIGNED TO STAY PLYABLE. Everything is not called enamel. This is a fact. You are mistaken and woefully inexperienced. It's ok.

When a paint says "enamel", it means that it dries hard and does not retain elasticity. Nothing else. It can be water or solvent based. It can be flat or glossy. Pro Mar 200 is not enamel. It is latex wall paint. Cashmere is enamel wall paint. It is acrylic wall paint. The advantages of enamel wall paint are, better appearance and better resistance to scuffs. The advantage of latex wall paint is it is more washable, moisture resistant, and more resistance to cracking from small dents. Enamel will discolor from moisture and it will crack easily. Facts, not speculation.

We've had MANY brands of Paint.....

Full Oils, Hybrid-Alkyds, & Latexes.

EVERY can of paint in my 20 years of Retail-Paint has had the word "Enamel" on it!!!

If you actually go shopping, you'll see that this is true.

EVERY. SINGLE. CAN.

But.........................How can EVERYTHING be "Enamel"?!??!?

It's almost laughable how many people believe this bunk!!! Oil-based paints (Alkyds) dry a little harder, yes. Washing is easy, because, in higher sheens, the surface is hard & smooth. DON'T try & wash a FLAT Oil!

But......WAIT.......Latexes wash great too, in higher sheens! They stay more flexible than Oils/Alkyds.

JH's last sentence......"Enamel will discolor....", had me laughing!

* He directly contradicted himself............and doesn't even realize it.

* Oil-based paints, in light colors, will AMBER over time, due to lack of UV-LIGHT. Moisture doesn't have a damn thing to do with it.

* If you painted 2 trim-boards an Oil-based White, & put one in the closet, & installed the other in the LR, in just a few years, they'd be 2 different colors.

* Latexes are only prone to very slight FADING, not color-CHANGE.

Forget you ever heard the term "Enamel".

It is absolutely a meaningless term.

.................remember.................if EVERYTHING is called "Enamel"............

Faron

I just had a bathroom and bedroom remodeled in my house. My contractors told me to go to Sherwin Williams to pick out a color, so I went to the local SW showroom and picked a color called High Reflective White and told them I wanted it in semigloss for the walls.

They tried to talk me into flat or eggshell, but I insisted on semigloss because I like the way it looks and everything else in my house is painted in semigloss and I've NEVER had a problem with semigloss paint. The owner/foreman of the contractor company said to me "you shouldn't use semigloss, it's going to peel right off the walls" - I thought he was joking.

The day that the contractor's workers did painting, they brought in a 5 Gallon bucket of Promar200 paint - I wasn't expecting Promar, I was expecting one of the other Sherwin Williams brands. So, anyway, the workers started slapping paint on the brand new drywall WITHOUT putting primer on first. They did 2 coats of paint in the bathroom and bedroom on a Friday. I could still see purple wallboard through the paint so I did a third coat in the bathroom over the weekend. I have done a LOT of painting in my 51 years and I've never seen paint go on so poorly. It took forever to dry and it was very thin going on the walls.

Since there was more construction to be done, the paint got nicked up in several places and I was absolutely shocked that the nicked paint literally led to THE PAINT PEELING RIGHT OFF THE WALL! I was in utter disbelief. If I tried to fix the edges of the nicks and scrapes, the paint literally started to peel right off the wall in sheets. Mind you, the bathroom was not yet in use at all! In fact, due to poor workmanship throughout the project that I complained about, the contractors that I hired literally ghosted me and walked off the job and I've since had to hire other competent contractors to come in and fix the problems...I haven't had a working bathroom for 12 weeks now, but that's another story...back to the peeling paint...

The second contractors that I had to hire had to replace the new window that was installed in the bathroom by the first contractors because it was the wrong type of window (new construction with nail fin, and should have been replacement) and it was installed incorrectly on top of that. Because the new contractors had to cut away drywall around the window to replace it, the paint literally peeled off the wall as the drywall was being removed.

I'm now in the process of peeling ALL of the paint off the walls so that I can add a primer coat and use something other than Promar200 which has to be the cheapest and worst paint on the face of the earth. So far, I peeled this much off in about 10 minutes. The smattering of paint that's in the lower left corner of the peeled area is where I tried to use a heat gun to scrape away the paint...that part is now stuck to the wallboard just slightly better than the rest of the paint, but as you can see, it's literally peeling off in sheets.

Pro Mar is absolute junk! My painters used it on our new home without me knowing. I am now paying to have it repainted with BM Aura. I found that I have what looks like water streaks everywhere with this paint! When you go to wipe it, it literally wipes the paint off! Absolutely awful paint unless you are using it for a rental property or apartments.

I too wiped off the paint on my hallway wall, with water damp cloth. Same in the bathroom! Paint 4 months old came off. This is not a washable paint. Tried to paint the bald patch, just a big mess. Repainted hall, same color, better brand! No problem now. Don't recommend for high traffic or damp areas.

I agree, Helen. My painters used "Zero Voc Low Sheen Eg-Shel Pro Mar 200" paint in a very light beige color for our new build. When the cleaning team came thru to get marks off the walls, the "low sheen" turned into extremely noticeable glossy blobs EVERYWHERE and the walls look horrible. We'll have to repaint everything and I'm not a happy camper. I don't recommend it anywhere in your home. HU-71021927 what better brand did you use with good results!