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piglet_in_md

'Green' cabinets - should I wait?

15 years ago

Hi there,

I'm thinking (not totally sure) about remodeling our kitchen. I'm overwhelmed by the choices and expense. One thing I thought I'd ask you all is this: I am interested in "green" cabinets, and what I mean by that is cabinets that don't emit harmful gases over time. This is what I think I know:

I know there is the ESP program, but most cabinet manufacturers seem to be part of that, and that doesn't (from what I can tell) guarantee 100% low formaldehyde emissions throughout the cabinet.

Then there is CARB complaint - the ones I have seen that advertise this seem to be just Phase 1 complaint. I believe the CARB phasing-in will be complete by 2012 or 2013, and while this doesn't guarantee "no formaldehyde" it allows a lower amount of off-gassing than you would get from non-CARB complaint manufacturers.

Then there is "no added urea formaldehyde." I believe this can be achieved by using Purebond plywood, but maybe there are other ways I'm not yet aware of.

Some questions for those of you who might know:

* If I want no added form. or low form. emissions, would I be better off just WAITING a couple of years?

* Is anyone concerned that these "greener" cabinets might not be as durable as the current ones, or might contain something worse than even formaldehyde in the long term?

* Is CARB complaint enough? (I doubt anyone can answer that, but I will throw it out). I'm thinking that's probably much better than most of the furniture and shelving in my house already, and it's probably "good enough."

FYI, I am only considering plywood cabinets (although someone said all shelves are particleboard? It's hard to find that detail in the cabinet literature). The cabinets I'm considering so far (no quotes yet - trying to narrow it down), are

Wood-mode/Brookhaven

Omega/Dynasty

Quality Custom Cabinetry

Signature Custom Cabinetry

Crystal Cabinetry (Maybe - haven't looked at them yet)

Woodharbor

Executive Cabinetry

Ultracraft Cabinetry

The above seem to have varying levels of "green-ness."

I also want a lifetime guarantee on everything (not only on hinges, etc.), and am looking for a cabinet with an opaque stain (cream or white).

Does any one have any advice for me in regards to my questions above? I'm confused and discouraged, and would appreciate any comments anyone has!!

Thanks!

Judy in MD

Comments (24)

  • 15 years ago

    A lot of it depends on your budget. I got zero formaldehyde/VOC cabinets with ultra low VOC finish by using a custom cabinetmaker. Some of the materials were very pricey and took a lot of time and effort to source, but I was rewarded with a kitchen that doesn't make me sick (I'm extremely sensitive).

    That said, there is very little about putting in a new kitchen that's "green". I used a lot of sustainable and recycled products, had an environmentally sensitive demolition, low emmissions, etc., but looking at it all together, the amount of "greenness" vs. just plain acquisitiveness is pretty small.

    If you really want green, repurpose what you can of what you have, and fill in with second hand and found items. Use brand new materials sparingly.

  • 15 years ago

    I completely understand your concerns!!! And while I think you're right - in a few years it will be easier to find low- or no-VOC cabinetry, you do have some options today.
    Ikea, of course, is one option. Their cabs are built to Germany's emissions standards, so they're whatever the highest EC standard is today (At least that was the case when I researched this a year ago.)

    Some cabinetmakers are using Purebond ply and no-VOC finishes. The Canadian cabinet company Glenwood (which is available in the U.S.) is one. I spent a while on the phone with their president last year chatting about the materials they use. He tracked down all the technical info from his suppliers for me. I called several other cabinet companies and got a runaround.. "oh, we're phasing in that stuff...." for example, when I pressed the Kraftmaid rep she told me they were using the emissions standards from like 1990 or something. When I looked those up they were abysmally bad!

    Lastly, I recently found out that Lowes stocks gorgeous 3/4" birch Purebond plywood for less than the chemical-laden stuff at the lumberyard. For some reason it's not even labeled as formaldehyde-free in the store's marketing, but the manufacturer (Columbia Forest Products) told me it was the right product, and when I checked, sure enough it has the Purebond stamp on it stating it's CARB Phase 2 (the highest right now!) compliant. We're using it for all our built-ins. Why not find a local cabinetmaker who can build custom cabs for you using this product, and no-VOC finishes (of which there are lots of great ones...)?

    Best wishes,
    Stacey

  • 15 years ago

    The formaldehyde emissions was the last straw that made me decide to get Ikea. They follow the strictest codes in the world. I also wanted frameless, and the whole cabs come with 25 years warranty. You seem to be looking at more expensive brands, though.

  • 15 years ago

    If you cared that much you probably wouldn't be ripping out a kitchen to replace it with another.....which is MONGO not green! But fwiw omega uses solid wood for an up charge. They do not use particle board shelves and their finish guarantees are among the best in the business. Wood mode will do the same. This is not the same spec as the dynasty line....for what you are shooting for omega custom or wood mode custom would have to be the route you would be going.

    That said....I think you're buying into a lot of silly hype myself but more power to you. You'll make a builder very happy.

  • 15 years ago

    Yeah, true, the greenest kitchen is the one the house came with, with more efficient appliances. But--have you looked at metal cabinets like St Charles? They have a lot of recycled content and are fully recyclable and have a powder coat finish.

    Here is a link that might be useful: St Charles

  • 15 years ago

    You signed that you are in Maryland. I learned a lot about eco-friendly cabinetry and renovation options at Amicus Green Building Center in the DC suburb Kensington, Maryland. If you can go there in person I recommend you visit. To use them as a supplier I found you need to be able to go there in person to make selections and place orders so that takes a few visits. I ordered Executive Kitchens Ecofriendly line from them for bathroom vanities and I am very happy with them. I don't think a lifetime guarantee is available in most cabinetry.
    I suggest get down to three companies since your list is so long. With so much research you are doing you are bound to get overwhelmed. I believe there are a few blogs and websites you could use for independent reviews instead of relying on the salespeople and sales literature which isn't very objective. For my bathroom project I found that in come cases (like countertops) using green friendly materials was more expensive but it does help reduce the myriad of options to choose from. Good luck!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Amicus Green Building Center in Kensington, MD

  • 15 years ago

    I wasn't necessarily aiming for a super green kitchen, but I feel like mine was fairly that. I was happy with our current layout, and I painted our cabinets. I've also bought several pieces 2nd hand. Maybe you could scour places like the habitat store for new to you cabinets? I've seen some amazing ones on here that people have found.

  • 15 years ago

    We seem to have two different meanings of "green" here: good for the environment vs not bad for one's health.

    Repurposing/reusing the current kitchen is probably tops in both those categories.

  • 15 years ago

    **purposing/reusing the current kitchen is probably tops in both those categories.**

    Not if the existing cabinets contain formaldehyde (or lead, or whatever). That fails on the "not bad for one's health" front.

  • 15 years ago

    I took fori's comment to mean that with reused materials the offgassing has already been done, I have no idea of the time frame that different things off gas, but it's certainly not forever.

    Also, living in an area with tons of Amish, and having dealt with them, I can tell you that Amish around here (old order) would not engage a ranger to tell them what trees to cut down, they do what they want to the Earth, and try mightily not to deal with outsiders, unless they're trying to sell something of course.

    sandyponder

  • 15 years ago

    Offgassing does not continue indefinitely. Lead paint was not used residentially after 1968 so unless you have an older painted kitchen with painted interiors that should be less of a concern. Even so this could be encapsulated with a base coat and repainted if I am not mistaken.

  • 15 years ago

    Avoiding emissions was a top priority of ours too.

    I found that custom was cheaper than the formaldehyde-free versions of semi-custom cabinet lines (because NAUF plywood was such an upgrade). We had custom cabinets built with PureBond plywood and a low-VOC finish for substantially less than those upgrades would have run in semi-custom. So I would definitely at least price a custom option.

    For those who doubt the importance of all this, I recommend a book called Anticancer by David Servan-Schreiber, M.D. Ph.D. and a brain cancer survivor. It's just one thing to consider.

  • 15 years ago

    Metal cabinets don't offgas and are almost 100% recyclable (and quite a bit already recycleD). Plus they are cool.

  • 15 years ago

    We are finishing a kitchen remodel that included custom lyptus slab cabinets. Lyptus is considered "green" in the sense that it is a rapidly renewable hybrid wood (mahogany and eucalyptus and grows very quickly to maturity) and is very hard (it is used for flooring as well). We love the cabinets.

  • 15 years ago

    Thanks to everyone who responded. Yes, I know the greenest thing to do would be to keep the cabinets that I have. However, they are literally falling apart (we just glued a drawer back together), are bubbling from steam near the sink, are turning from white to yellow at inconsistent rates (we have one cabinet where the door on the left is white, and the one on the right is yellow), and the thermofoil is separating from the doors. They are builder-grade and almost 13 years old. So keeping them for the next 25 years seems unlikely, although I have considered refacing them. But that won't help with all the problems.

    What we do plan to do to be "green" is to move them to our garage for storage there. I feel better about doing that then just getting rid of them- what we can't use we will see about donating.

    Thanks for the IKEA suggestions. I looked at their site and they do seem to be trying to reduce/remove formaldehyde from their products, which is great. I don't mind the look, and the price would be nice.

    Thanks also for the suggestion for Amicus Green Building Center. I'll have to check them out. They do sell Executive Cabinetry (aka EcoFriendly Cabinetry) which I'm already considering, so it's good to see another recommendation for them.

    Thanks for the suggestions for metal cabinets. I just can't see myself with them though, despite how green they might be. Someone said they are cool, and I see them as cold, and I don't like anything cold. :(

    Regarding all the suggestions for local cabinet makers, I'm having trouble finding one. I did find a small local (PA) cabinet maker that uses formaldehyde-free plywood and only services nearby areas, but while they had a lifetime warranty on glides and such, they only had a few year warranty on defects in workmanship or materials, which gave me pause (the woman I spoke to on the phone did not even sound sure what their warranty on that would be). Can anyone recommend one in the Baltimore area that might have a good warranty?

    FYI, I don't think I need "custom" - I am mostly looking at custom or semi-custom because it seems to be hard to get 1) plywood construction, and 2) good quality finishes (I'm looking for an opaque finish) without going higher end. I know there is a debate over plywood vs particleboard or MDF, but all I know is that plywood has lower allowable formaldehyde emissions under CARB than either particleboard or MDF. I thought also that plywood naturally emitted lower formaldehyde than those other materials (not sure about that, but that's what I think might be the case). In addition, what I have now is particleboard, and we have been disappointed in it (I know, the quality of particleboard can vary a great deal!).

    See why I'm confused? :)

    Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions. Please let me know if anyone else has any other considerations or suggestions!!

    Judy in MD

  • 15 years ago

    I think what you are more concerned about is interior air quality which is a bit different than "green"--there are a lot of things that are positive for interior air quality and other health issues that are not particularly green at the sourcing end.

  • 15 years ago

    Hi Palimpsest,

    Yes, that is what I mean (that I'm more concerned about interior air quality). I said that in my first post "what I mean by that (green) is cabinets that don't emit harmful gases over time." I think people are thinking I'm meaning something else when I said "green," which is understandable because green means many things. Maybe I should change the title of this thread? Can I do that?

    Judy in MD

  • 15 years ago

    Try greendemolitions.com because you can get almost new cabs or showroom kitchens for great prices and they are not brand new, so have had a chance to outgas somewhere else. It is also "green" to recycle something that was already made rather than to commission something truly new.

    We went with IKEA for all the reasons mentioned above. They gave us the look we wanted, were priced great, made to higher standards about outgassing, had a smaller carbon footprint due to flat pack shipping, etc.... Now that they are in, we forget all the other reasons and like them for their looks and functionality the most.

    Pal - I am so glad you had not let me know about the St Charles cabs earlier, because we love the vintage ones of theirs and had no idea they were still in production. I imagine they'd have cost multiples more than our IKEA cabs and we may not have realized at cab order time how strapped we'd be by the end of the process ;). If we ever hit Lotto and move, I would seriously consider them. They are too cool for school! Our IKEA cabs are probably meant to be modern, but we put vintage hardware on them and the best compliment was when someone said they looked like old time metal cabs as he knocked on them to see what they were made of. We tried to find a complete kitchen of the SC metal cabs from back in the day, but they would not have had the ideal configuration and quantity we'd need, so this was a better plan. Getting new SC cabs never occurred to us!

  • 15 years ago

    Saint Charles was out of production for a while and the company was taken over by Viking, and now the cabinets are available to match Viking colors if you wish.

    They are 70% recycled and 98% recyclable.

    Judy you may want to start a new thread about products and interior air quality (instead of green)--for example bare concrete is good for interior air quality and is used in houses with people who have extreme sensitivities, but is not green at the original sourcing and production end. Same with stone countertops (except those that may emit radon?).

  • 15 years ago

    question: are the ikea low-emission standards a newer thing? i haven't been to an ikea in a few years. i've had sensitivity problems with their products in the past. thanks.

  • 15 years ago

    Hi Palimpsest - thanks for the suggestions to start a new thread with a better name. I'll do that.

    Ironcook, I had trouble finding out specifics about IKEA's emissions policy, but I went to the Ikea site (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/ for English), and in the search box at the top I typed in "formaldehyde" and it found 10 pages in "About Ikea" that contained the word "formaldehyde." On those pages that turned up in the search, I just searched for formaldehyde.

    I don't have any experience with their kitchen cabinets. I'm just going by what I found at their website.

    I hope this helps.

    Thanks everyone for your comments!

    Judy in MD

    Here is a link that might be useful: Search results for formaldehyde at ikea.com

  • 15 years ago

    Piglet,
    If you will send me an email, I can give you specific information about one of the product lines you mentioned.

  • 15 years ago

    I also am in the process of trying to find cabinetry as green as possible within my budget. My only contribution to this thread would be to warn everyone, tell your friends and neighbors: do NOT do business with Ritchie Jenkins, Woodworking 102, or anything with Mr. Jenkins' name on it. They were a business in White Marsh, MD, that was featured on Ch. 9 news as a community business to patronize. Must be safe, right? WRONG. They promised custom cabinetry, all wood, no formaldehyde, no-VOC stain, came & took measurements, designed a kitchen, kept in constant contact right until shortly before the cabinets were "ready" - and then just disappeared. Took down their facebook page, folded their website, disconnected their phone, emptied their little office and stole away into the night - along with our more than $5,000 downpayment. Filed a BBB complaint and they too were unsuccessful at reaching them. Just FWIW.