quote" Was it the right decision to allow it just to drain out or did that magnify the problem. It seems to me that if we went along for 1 year without problems and then all of a sudden in 1 month cracks just begin to develop and intensify like crazy, something huge is going on. If the pool house caused it, then why is the pool house not showing symptoms?
Yes on the draining, although the water exerts a little energy to the pool shell it's nothing compared to the energy the foundation of the pavilion exerts back to the pool shell especially if the substrate soil is wet.

It appears that the pool builder had his guniters shoot up directly against the slab of the pavilion. 1/4 of the weight of the pavilion and it's slab are in contact with the pool shell. with no allowance for expansion, contraction, or settling.
I'm curious, did an architect or an engineer draw your pavilion and pool or did the pool builder design his pool around the pavilion slab?
When the footer beam of the building pushes against the pool beam and wall of the pool most especially on those inside miters the pool shell will lose the battle every time. If there was a leak beneath or near the pavilion's slab the situation will be accelerated and exaggerated quickly.
I'll bet your Homeowners insurance will end up suing one of the contractors if they eat the claim or the architect/engineer if the contractors followed the plans.
IMO, the proper repair is to jackhammer out the shell beyond the cracks and reform with at least an inch preferably two of clearance, two part epoxy some long (24 to 30") dowels into some slightly oversized deep drilled holes (12 to 15") into the matrix of the shell, steel reinforcement, and gunite that demo'd area again.
Even the strongest concrete repair product methylmethacrylate won't work because since its bond is four times the strength of your shell it'll just move the crack over from the repair as it continues to settle. Trust me on this, all settling is not over in the first year This isn't going to be a cheap fix to do it properly.

See ya,
Kelly

I'm sorry, last night I totally misinterpreted your question. I thought you were referring to the pool builder draining the pool.
Letting the water leak out on it's own is what caused the aggravated and accelerated cracking. But, now it's a blessing.
You can now see all the areas affected and where the gunite cracks lead to at the beam.
Sorry I misread your question, it was late and I'd had a few beers out in the pavilion after Mom and the kids went to bed before coming in to log on.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly,

Thanks for all of the input. I was wrong on the date for the engineer. I thought it was Monday 1/31, but it is next Monday. PB has hired leak detector company to come out this Thursday. He also filed a claim with his insurance company. More waiting.

I'd suggest having the engineer inspect the slab and the engineering of your pavilion too. Although the pool builder shot up against your slab when he shouldn't have the pavilion's slab has also settled noticeably. Expansion and contraction from temperature changes will not cause that magnitude of damage.
Do you remember footing beams and piers prior to pouring the foundation. Having a foundation company come out and offer their insight will go a long way. Good one's like Olshans here will over a very long warranty on their repairs. This is/was caused from compound problems, handling both at the same time is your best avenue.
I'm not trying to snake your builders it's just my .02

See ya,
Kelly

Maggie,
The 10th photo of your post is very telling.

In the upper left hand corner it appears that the bathouse foundation was poured without a footing on a 6-10 inch layer of organic rich soil. This soil horizen extends the length of the pool and might extend through the remainder of the bathouse foundation that isn't visible.

Kelly's suggestion that the cracks could be caused by the compression of the two stuctures is feasible, however I think they are moving away from each other. A close examination of the cracks should reveal which way things are moving. Either way, whether its compression or tension causing the problem the structures should have been allowed to move indenpendently.

One could argue that the design of the pool complex, or the movement of the bathouse or movement of the pool, or a combination of all of the above contributed to the problem.

I am total agreement with Kelly's advice about letting your homeowners insurance take on the battle of assigning blame. It will be a lot easier on you if they take over the issue.

OMG!!!
After coming in from smoking a cigarette and enjoying a beer I just looked very closely at your pic #3 from gunite construction.
Look to the far left where you can see the steel tied tightly up against the slab and air beneath the columns base.
This, my internet friend, is a true recipe for disaster.
You'll really need to get on that structure too. I see what might be at best an 18" wide x12" deep footer that looks like it was barely shoveled into topsoil. That picture is a must see for your engineer.
Do you have any pictures of the foundation's forms prior to them putting the concrete in it? I'd like to see how high the other side of the slab by the fireplace is relative to the natural ground level. The pic's are deceptive but it looks like they just set forms on top and scratched a little footer with shovels down into the native topsoil without putting a sandy clay pad down, rolling it out, formsetting, and digging legitimate beams and boring piers. I think they just ordered a bunch of redimix and poured it behind however many formboards it took to reach the finished floor from the original ground level. If so this will be one incredibly heavy foundation.
I always find myself in an awkward spot when I'm forced to make the following statement "You really should retain counsel to assist you and your structural engineer in handling this in the correct manner. The builders, both of them and their insurers, will tell you that it's not really that big of a deal. If that is truly so, then why is your home on a pad with footer beams and bell bottomed piers and not just flopped on top of the dirt like this?"
I'm sorry that your having to go through this. I think it's great that you have good relationships with the two of them. It should really assist you in what's coming. Keep a good attitude, demand the proper construction techniques, and don't roll over for penny ante repairs.
I haven't come into this forum like I usually have for a long time but I'm trying to make a habit of getting back regularly. I've received several e-mails asking where I've been over the past couple of months. I'll follow this thread. I'd be happy to assist you in any manner possible except placing me between you and your builders due to my comments on your construction.
You can trust me on this, I've been almost 10 years on this board under 2 names Huskyrider and Huskyridor.
I've never spammed a member and I've never offered anything less than the truth as I see it on any questions I've answered based on over 30 years of hands on home/pool construction. I let the members know what they're dealing with and how I'd handle it if it were at my house.
I'm certain many will vouch for me here on these inputs from me to members. I have nothing to gain from yanking someones chain, if it's big I'll say so and if it's small I'll do the same.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly, you certainly have a charasmatic spirit!

Reno,
It look like we were posting at the same time.

quote" Kelly's suggestion that the cracks could be caused by the compression of the two structures is feasible, however I think they are moving away from each other. A close examination of the cracks should reveal which way things are moving. Either way, whether its compression or tension causing the problem the structures should have been allowed to move independently."quote

You know, after looking a little more closely to the direction of the cracks relative to the pavilion's foundation I think your probably right. The weight of the open body of water in the swim area placed both a light compressive load and a heavy tensile load on the walls and floor right in front of the inside barstool area where the inside miters are due to sticktion. Sticktion (a construction adjective for what concrete does at a cold joint when it sticks to the old concrete) from not having a expansion barrier between the two caused the wall to stick to the columns footer and the side of the slab on both sides of the post up to the inside corner and out to the outside corner where the pool beam stops making contact with the slab. This tensile load (picture 2 heavy blocks of concrete on both sides of a teeter-totter board) caused a failure in the cohesion of the matrix.
Way to go man, that was a sharp eye look.

See ya,
Kelly

quote" Kelly, you certainly have a charasmatic spirit! "quote

LMAO!!!

It's great to be coming back in again, I didn't realize I hadn't been around in that long of a timespan.
Getting old is tough, time goes by so quick it's mind boggling.

See ya,
Kelly

Maggie, fascinating thread. I'm sorry it comes at your expense.

I'm a licensed engineer from New York. Not a pool expert, (hence the moniker). But i did build one for myself last year.

My expertise is focused on highway bridges and similar structures. I have done a fair amount of forensic engineering, expert testimony and the like. I have to recommend to you in no uncertain terms - get your own engineer, and pay him with your money.

I have seen so many cases where equally qualified engineers offer conflicting opinions, based largely on who pays them. Not that they are dishonest, but if an engineer has a working relationship with a client, the engineer will tend to look for causes that look elsewhere for responsibility. Not always, but engineers generally advocate for their clients. And the client here is your builder, not you.

BTW, the PBs on this board have better eyes than most engineers I know. Nice work guys.

It would be a good idea to have a surveyor come out and take a bunch of shots around the pool. The whole perimeter, the steps, parts of the floor on both sides of the crack. Tie the elevations to a couple of permanent benchmarks (known reference points on a nearby structure or something permanent). Then if the problem recurs in the future, you have a good frame of reference to help determine what is moving. I did this with my pool the day after they plastered it, just in case I had a problem down the road.

Another thing that we do to determine if cracks are active is use glass slides. You can take a slide (the microscope kind) and glue it to the concrete with epoxy on both sides of the crack. The glass spans the crack. Glass, being very brittle, will break if the crack is still active. In your case, I would leave the glass in place for at least 8 weeks to test it.

Good luck to you. And please post the resolution.

John

John, while the principle is sound, IMHO, the material isn't. Glass and pools don't mix and should be mutually exclusive except in tile. Shards happen. Murphy's laws evolved for a reason.

Perhaps a different material? Maybe a thin clay rod? Should be fragile enough.

Scott

Scott, I don't think they will swimming in the near future and it won't be in that water.

MAGGIE96
Time to start looking up as well. See if there are any cracks at the corners of the arches on the building starting to develop. Check all sides.
It's pretty easy to pick apart a structure after the fact. But some of your pictures are quit telling. Building footings poured on grade, not below. Pool walls freestanding 4-5' above grade. Lack of horizontal bars in the bond beam. Guniting the pool structure directly against a foundation. It is truly a combination of poor practices that is contributing to the problem. Any one of which a builder might get away with.
PB's insurance probably won't cover the pool if it's considered workmanship. His insurance will most likely cover building damage caused by the pool.
Good advise was given that you need engineering and/or legal council representing YOU!

If the pool builder has product liability insurance theres a good chance it would be covered even if its negligence. If he does any commercial work he most likely has coverage for this. The same is probably true for the bathouse contractor. The homeowners insurance company should be in the battle for the home. If Maggie has the funds she might hire an attorney to make sure her homeowners insurance company doesn't bail and leave her standing alone.

GEEZ!!!
I can't believe everybody has better eyes than I do.
There is no steel for the beam in the top (you should have either 3 over 1 or as I do a 2 over 2 #4 boxed) you should also have vertical alternates coming up from about 5' into the floor and all the way to the top horizontal of the beam.
Quite honestly I cant tell you on the open board what I'd be doing if this was my pool that I had purchased one year ago.
Way to go Geek, I was so overwhelmed with the magnitude of the cracks and the cold joint that I missed some incredibly large indicators leading to the catastrophic failure in this pool shell.

See ya,
Kelly

There are beam bars, 1 front, and 1 back. Another thing I like is that there they didnt drop the bars under the skimmer.

There are no "B" detail bars, but the wall holding up the structure is typically " double curtain".

Look close at the one horizotal bar that is at the back of the beam in the gunite picture of the deep end. It's only attached to a vertical bar about every 2' or so. It's doesn't match any engineered plan I have ever seen.
Even if you use 1/2" bars, you still need some kind of surcharge on the walls freestanding that far above natural grade.
The transition of the beam at the footings is almost nonexistent if you look closely at the one photo showing that area.
Kudos to MAGGIE96 for taking pictures.

A legitimate pool beam is 12" x 12" of concrete with 4 #4 bars either 3 over 1 where the 3 are 3" down from the top of the form and set at the 3",6".9" inside from the form. The one beneath those 3 is 9" down from the form and 9" inside. The other method (which I prefer) is a boxed beam which is 2 on top at the 3" down and 3" and 9" inside from the form. The 2 beneath them are at the same distance in from the form and 9" down from the top of the form.
Vertical alternates come from 5' inside tghe wall and go all the way to the top of the beam, it splits an 8" x 8" centered square into 8" tall by 4" wise rectangle.

quote" Kudos to MAGGIE96 for taking pictures. "quote
I'll second that.
It's a shame she hasn't posted in a few days, I'm more than certain that she's completely heartbroken about this situation.
If any contractor performed any type of substandard work at my house (regardless of the trade) and a failure of this magnitude occured, someone would have to restrain me.

See ya,
Kelly

Well, she has that big pow-wow on Monday. Then she'll get to see who steps up and takes the ball.

So far, the right people it seems to me.

I do hope she has been following along and decides to continue her posting.

Scott

I've never advocated suits but if this were my house I'd send the builders of both packing, hire an attorney, and sue them both to demolish and replace both structures with code compliant work.
I would have never passed a either a pool reinforcing steel or foundation inspection with these construction techniques. And quite honestly my guniter would have refused to have shot the pool if they'd of seen this steel reinforcement. My guniter, who I feel is the best in our nation, offers a lifetime warranty on cracks which involve water loss for as long as you own the home.

Maggie, I hope you read your thread before your meeting tomorrow and I equally hope that it's the structural engineer only there without either builder being present.

Good luck, we're all behind you and wishing you the best.
I know you dropped a ton of money on these improvements and deserve what you paid for to be constructed properly and code compliant even if you don't live in an incorporated city/township where building inspections are mandatory.

See ya,
Kelly

Yes, I'm still here, although much of this talk about beams is over my head. I know what the beam is, I just don't understand the descriptions of how it should have been done differently.

At the present time, we don't need a test to determine if it is still cracking. The developing of new cracks and continued worsening of all is still very apparent to the naked eye. Each week gets progressively worse.

If you look at the 2nd photo (photo of the right fountain at the swim-up bar), you can see that the grout above the tile is separating from the stone. This is hugely different now. Big gap and all of the rock around the sheeter is loosening. The part of the column that I'm describing sits only on the pool......it it NOT the part of the column that was built with the building. The plumbing runs down that area to the bottom of the pool and out. Whatever is going on seems to be more severe at this fountain than anywhere else in the pool.

Sorry, I'm probably jumping around....trying to remember things from all of the comments above.

Yes, tomorrow is the day that the engineer is supposed to meet here with the PB (I believe he is a soil engineer). Building Contractor will be present as well to answer any questions that may arise. Yes, I am one big walking ULCER!!! I understand that I will more than likely need to hire people myself, but since this guy has been scheduled by the PB for more than 2 weeks, I am going to allow him to come as scheduled. I have not heard from PB's insurance adjuster, although they were supposed to contact me last week. I will follow up with them again tomorrow and find out why.

I sincerely appreciate the input I'm getting from all of you.

Update: Met with structural engineer hired by PB. He ruled out any problems with cabana.
Met with leak detection company. All plumbing (except right fountain) tested ok. Right fountain tested at 18lbs. drops prox 1 lb every 1-2 minutes.

Did you ask the engineer his thoughts on the fact that the pool and cabana are tied together as one? According to the experts here, that is probably the problem. Good luck

MAGGIE96,

Is the right fountain shown in any of your pictures?

Lots of pools leak. Structures don't necessarily fail because of a leak. At least not ones with sound construction.

I suspect the right fountain is the sheer on the right side of the bar.

Scott

quote" Right fountain tested at 18lbs. drops prox 1 lb every 1-2 minutes. "quote

That doesn't sound good. Is this the pipe running up from inside the pool by your bar seating area on the right that is plumbed out of the slab and into the pool and then exiting the pool there on the floor in picture #3 down of construction. In picture #7 of construction it looks like there was another pipe plumbed into the equal but opposite side of the seating area. It doesn't appear that these pipes were utilized but might have been water features for the tops of the short posts that might not have been used for features because I don't see anything plumbed out of the top of the little posts.
I'd ask the leak detector to bring a nitrogen tank and decibel meter to listen to that area down by the floor. I'd guess that there were features that got passed on for some reason and might have just got capped and left idle. The plumber would have plumbed these pipes into that fountain return pipe prior to the decision to leave them out, and it could be cracked there at it's base where it leaves the pool and enters the poolhouse foundation. I'm just guessing based on the pic's. If this is the case all your builder needs to do is dig down to where that pipe leaves the pool shell and cut/cap that pipe outside of the shell and then retest the line.

See ya,
Kelly

Thanks Scott,
Hadn't noticed the two sheers on either side of the swim up benches.
I never like running pipe thru foundation footings if it can be avoided. It's another poor construction practice. In this case it brings up the chicken/egg question. Did the movement of the pool cause the leak? It's quite possible as it appears the pvc was gunited into the pool.

1) I have to wonder how often those sheers ran.
2) How much could it have leaked or washed away?
3) Could the gunite shoot have cracked the line?

Maybe I am missing something, Any leak there would have run away from the pool and down the hill.

I am not convinced the rebar broke anywhere but rather that the gunite tried to fold under due to stress of the soil compacting under the weight of the shell and water. Gunite isn't exactly the most ductile material. Hence, the cracks at the bar where it held. #5 rebar and 9" centers is a strong mesh but without bottom support...

Just for arguments sake, suppose the bar area was separated from the structure. I think we would still be discussing this pool having issues, perhaps not as dramatic though, just different. A listing perhaps, like a boat with too much weight on on side.

Alas, in order to find the cause, some cores will be needed, both of the shell and soil below for testing.

Scott

I think MAGGIE96 indicated the spec was #4 @ 9" oc.
I've never seen rebar actually brake when cracks are present, even large ones. The rebar has the ability to stretch a great deal.
Weak spots are at the corners and along the footings where the rebar is placed too deep(not blocked out from the footing) in the gunite. Lack of uniformity in these areas will produce considerable stress to this area.

Right you are WRT the rebar size. I had .5" on my mind with came out as #5.

I hope Maggie is getting updated.

I would really like to see what testing of the cores, gunite and soil would reveal.

Scott

How do you pressure test and sheer descent?

Racket,
I would think you would need a sledge hammer, a saw, a cap and some glue.

You have DIY instructions for that?

I doubt they did a demolition on them at the bar. I think it's more likely the the tech dug down and cut the pipes before it came through the shell.

Scott

Scott, they would have to dig about 6ft deep to test it that way? Considering that the masonry was already falling apart it could have been demolished with a lumpy in a few minutes.

I don't think so. Pic 9(?) showing the two men, one doing the shoot. The ground behind the backer slopes a lot. Diagonal dig, maybe 2 feet.

I sure hope Maggie comes back soon. All this conjecture...

Scott

Look at picture #5.

Steep drop right after the deck right there and it is fill, relatively easy digging. Pic 10 shows the location exactly

I think either location is possible but without Maggie, we won't know..

Not too sure how much info you would gain with that approach?

To each his own.

I would assume that Maggie's attorneys have told her to stay offline with this situation.

quote" I would assume that Maggie's attorneys have told her to stay offline with this situation. "quote

Hopefully she retained one for her counsel.
Last thing I remember was she was meeting both builders and the pool guys structural engineer.
I'd definitely be hiring my own and not depending on his.
What you see in this thread, piss poor construction techniques, happens in Texas all the time.
I lose pools on price all the time and then get the come fix my mess calls. Thankfully it sounds like her builder is a stand up guy and hopefully he'll have a claim against his insurance carrier. This kind of stuff typically throws a builder around here into closing the doors quickly, but he'll waste no time starting a new pool construction company.
You know what's sad???
The 21 yr old girl that cuts my hair has a license and is held accountable for her actions but the guy I just lost a 65k pool on price to is on his 4th company since 2000 and still competes with the good builders I've known for decades under the same name and has never been held accountable for the many many uncompleted and poorly constructed pools he's been on. How can you beat my price by 10k, simply by quoting it a tick above cost, not paying the subs, and by not doing things the proper way.
What's even more sad is that the judicial system here protects him more than the pool buyer.

See ya,
Kelly

Isn't that the truth! They are like poisionous weeds that keep poping up everywhere. When you think one has died 4 more come up in its place.

They can put up a website with incredible pools that the consumer thinks they built, claim 30 years of experience and have an A+ BBB rating in a matter of a few weeks.

Geez - I can't imagine folks would choose the low-bidder without both personally seeing at least one recently built pool and talking to at least one previous customer...

All four of my quotes were within about $5K (~10%), which I think is about as close as you can get with different products (shotcrete vs gunite, PebbleTec vs Quartz, Intellibrite vs Hayward, etc) If I had a quote significantly lower, I would have been exceedingly skeptical and would have spent a lot of time checking up on that PB.

But I suppose there are always folks who want to believe that they're getting a bargain rather than realizing that they're going to get what they pay for.

It is a must to test the bottom drains .they used ridge sch 40 pvc ,it does not flex, the skimmer box is way to big the weight of the skimmer box is equal to a small car ,its out of ground no support.the rebar did not have a proper box beam design,single steel.the floors are not 12"look at the photo core drilling will prove this out.but" mainly test all plumbing just poorly planed ,when ground drops away like that

At long last, we have answers!! 9 core samples taken, only 4 could be tested under compression. Other 5 basically came out of the pool in pieces due to all of the air pockets/voids in material. One core was only 5". (Most ranged from 5" - 9") Engineer says pool is total demo. Settled with both insurance companies. Now we move on toward the demolition.

Amen and may that builder reap the pain of the rebuild!

I would love to know who the builder was along with the gunite company.

Wow! I missed these pictures when they were originally posted. MAGGIE96, I'm so sorry!

Maggie,
this is so sad. We are interviewing builders now and I;m scared to death. Can you message me who your pool builder was?

And Kelly, who was yours?
lzydogrnch@aol.com