do those little 2.55' sections of wall need to remain?

Hi desertsteph,

unfortunately they do :( The structural engineer has sized the metal joist so it sits on top of them as the wall that's coming out is carrying quite a lot of weight.

Steel columns can replace those short walls and a glulam or other structural component the steel beam for the longer span. That's one step. It will give more design options.

Choices can then depend on- What view is available outside the sink wall. What goes in the utility area. Entrance door. Is it part of the period design and flow of the house. How will the french doors function now and with the sunroom(open often or closed).

I actually like the plan overall. I like the clean up area tucked away in the corner. I like the flow of the cooking run.

Is this your only dining area or is there a dining room somewhere? Is there anything going on south of the clean up area or is that just a hallway to the storage area? What is the aisle space around the table?

I like the French doors off to the left; that gives you more usable space along the top wall.

I'm confused by the space at the bottom. There are lots of doors and some funny spaces that could be better used by removing the doors or ideally eliminating that second wall from the bottom (the one that currently has the entrance door.) If that second from the bottom wall could be eliminated, it would really open up that space. (Like this below:)

{{gwi:1734079}}

If that wall can't be moved, can you still eliminate the second entrance and direct traffic to the left, then into the kitchen? This would still allow you to move your table down and give you a blank wall at the bottom:

{{gwi:1734082}}

Finally if you don't want to change anything on that second from the bottom wall, how about eliminating the door into the small space on the bottom right, and moving the door in the small space to the left to make that a walk in pantry.

{{gwi:1734084}}

Hello dan, thanks for your reply. I had no idea about there being another option besides the support walls... The house is the family home and my dad's in charge of the work being done and the budget - he told me the walls had to stay after getting a structural engineers report, but maybe there's more to it that my dad never told me. I'll discuss it with him later on (he's already bought the metal beam so I'm not hopeful on that front). Out of interest is the steel column option (on average) vastly more expensive than leaving support walls? Do a building's foundations effect whether or not steel columns can be used?

Regarding the other points you've raised, the view outside the sink wall is a concrete patch in our garden with a brick boundary wall and the end of it. The size is around 13ft x 22ft, so I'm sure it can be beautified in the future somehow to make a nice view.

The utility room will be where all the laundry duties will take place. It's going to be quite utilitarian, having a washing machine, dryer, ironing board, broom closet and a big sink. Currently these duties are performed in the dining room and it's really a shockingly bad setup.

The entrance to the kitchen is from the hall. There's an arch, and then the kitchen door.. it's a little bit tight as the entire kitchen and the floor above it was added to the house around 30 years after the main building was completed (it's a brick built Victorian house from 1890-ish). I'll have to find a floorplan to post so you can see the layout of the house better. I'm on my laptop as my monitor is in for repair so I'm not sure when I'll be able to upload one.

The french doors will likely stay closed most of the time depending on the weather, which is usually cold and/or rainy over here in England. They'll probably be closed quite often even with the sunroom which would function as a separate reception area.

Thanks again

Hello malhgold and chicagoans, thanks for taking the time to commment.

I actually like the plan overall. I like the clean up area tucked away in the corner. I like the flow of the cooking run.

Cool :), I quite like the idea of having the cleanup area separate myself, though I did wander if it was perhaps too separate.

Is this your only dining area or is there a dining room somewhere?

It's the only dining area - the other room which could have served as a dining room has been converted into a downstairs bedroom and ensuite.

Is there anything going on south of the clean up area or is that just a hallway to the storage area? What is the aisle space around the table?

I think in that area there'll be either a bench with storage or a dresser unit. I'm thinking maybe a bench would be nice, but then a dresser would give some more counter and would have better storage, so that's to be decided (if we go for a design like this).

Here's a pic of the aisle space around the table:

Chicagoans, your layout suggestions are really appreciated. I don't think it will be possible to take out the wall where the entrance to the kitchen is (it would be an awesome space but I think the scope of work would be well outside our budget). Also the door on the right, before the kitchen entrance will lead to a small room where the house's hot water cylinder will be, or alternatively a small cloakroon.

I'm going to try adding your pantry idea to sketchup to see how it might look. My immediate thought is that it might make the room feel smaller on that side. Also on that side there will be a wall of glass blocks which will supply natural light to the downstairs bedroom (its only source of natural light). In the top down diagram its unlabeled but visible, it's the small squares in the wall at the bottom left. Another detail I ommitted is that there will be 3 roof windows on the extended area's roof. I'll try to post better pics soon that will show a more complete picture of the house (sorry, I'm very disorganised!).

Me again..

I've managed to get a ground floor plan but it doesn't have dimensions. Hopefully it will give a better indication of what's going on.

{{gwi:1734086}}

I had a look into trying the alternative route into the kitchen but I don't think it would feel right. Currently you can look down the hall from sitting room 1's door and see into the dining room, but with the alternative it would be a wall in the line of sight. I agree the blank wall on the kitchen side would be extremely welcome but I think I'd like to keep it straight through.

I tried the extended pantry layout, here's a pic of how it might look in the room:

{{gwi:1734088}}

and this is without:

{{gwi:1734090}}

I think though the walk in pantry makes fuller use of space, it seems to make the room feel smaller. We may end up putting shelves on that part of the wall though.

Thanks again for your suggestions, please keep more coming!

I've just noticed all the pics Ive posted are huge in filesize and that imageshack wont let me edit/replace them so I'm going to post links to them in this message and delete the original pics to let the thread load more quickly.

French doors on left:

Doors more toward the right:

Kitchen layout design with doors on right:

Overview of groundfloor:

{{gwi:1734100}}

Kitchen with walk in pantry added:

Without:

Although I originally said I like the French doors on the left, I am liking your layout with them more toward the center/right. It looks like it will bring more light into the room. (On the other hand I'm concerned that it will send traffic past the cooktop.) Maybe try a mockup with the French door just to the right of that little partial wall, and keep your wall ovens to the right of the door. (Maybe in the corner on an angle?) Then if something goes from cooktop to oven, you don't have to cross in front of the door.

I also like the layout with the hutch near the storage area with the glass blocks. (Some mockups have the hutch and some don't.) Now that you've explained it, I understand why you wouldn't want to close off that area.

Which sink will the DW be near? It seems like the window sink would be the "main" sink, but there is more storage by the other sink. I can picture the cook working between the cooktop, window sink, and refrigerator, while the helpers are out of the way setting the table with dishes stored near the other sink. Where will the trash be? Maybe by both sinks?

When you look at your layout, just think about where you'll scrape dishes to load into the DW, then where you'll put most of them when you unload the DW. Do you have to walk past the cooktop to put them away? Does that bother you? (It might not.)

Lots to think about! But it's a great space.

Hi, sorry for the delay...

Great post chicagoans, and great suggestions. I've been trying the door shifting and my first result was this:

which was dissapointing.. so I re-read what you'd written and realised I hadn't moved the doors enough. So then I got this:

I felt the end bit of counter on that run was wasted so moved the ovens to the end:

I think the tall unit overshadows the door a bit so I tried with a mid-height unit:

and I think it's an improvement. It's added some extra counterspace to the main run and given more landing space for the ovens (I think the top of the cabinet is usable as landing space but I'll have to check). Plus I think you're right about traffic, it would most likely become a nuisance at some point to whoever's at the cooktop, or using the oven. And of course as you say transferring from cooktop to oven would be a lot easier/safer.

I did also try the ovens at an angle but I prefer to have the countertop run unbroken near the cooktop.

OK, sinks and trash... The main sink would be the one with a wall in front of it (eek!). It's a not the norm but it does have a window to the right and a roof window over it so it shouldn't be too awful. The DW is to the left of it and I think trash would be best by both sinks. I've got to look into undersink trash solutions to see if they're adequate.

I've also done a layout for the sake of balance to see what can be achieved if the doors are on the left. I quite like this one too (note, I forgot to add the hutch again so please imagine it's there):

There's some pro's and cons to it..

Pro's:

Slightly more counter space around cooktop
Food storage cupboard space is larger by 8"
Main window is not obstructed by a tall cabinet
Better clearance for F/F doors
Better flow from a more unified kitchen (maybe?)
Footflow to the garden/future sunroom will not intefere with any function

Cons:

Doors partially obstructed by support walls so less light
View of F/F on entering kitchen and also while dining
Ovens are far from cooking area (though they do have counterspace leading to them)
Slightly lessened prep space ?

I tried also a design where the cooktop was against the far wall, but the F/F ends up being either too close or too far from the action, so I think this is the best 'doors on the left' design I've managed.

As always comments greatly appreciated.

bump

I'm glad you bumped this and I'm hoping some of the GW layout experts chime in!

I like your 3rd layout with the french doors just to the right of that short wall: http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/3492/doormovedoverwithovensa.th.jpg

I think if you had uppers along that back wall the tall double ovens wouldn't look out of place.

What I like about this is that you use the space on that left hand wall, and that when you're at the table you can look out the doors. It's always nice to have a view from the table.

Maybe you could pick your favorite 2 or 3 layouts and post a new thread, with the pictures bigger so they're easy to see. Hopefully more folks will provide feedback on the layouts.