I don't know nearly as much as many people on this forum but I'm learning as I continue to read threads. It seems to my novice eye that if you move the appliance garage to the corner to the right of the sink you add convience for possibly a coffee center by the sink and a small landing zone for taking things out of the micro. Still... it would be only a reach to the end of the long counter run (oven all) to put something down. Hope that makes sense.
Elyse

What's your time frame here? I ask b/c I'm in the middle of something for work but I could work on this over the weekend...

Off hand, I agree about the location of the coffee...either it should be on the other side or you need an alternate source of water nearby (although, it's not the end of the world if you have to walk to the other end of the kitchen for water).

What would be nice is if you could have a beverage/coffee center on the perimeter of the kitchen so others can get to it w/o interfering w/kitchen work...ditto for refrigerator and MW (which is where they are right now)

For an island, parallel w/the sink wall (seating on refrigerator side), you JUST have enough room if you go with a 36" aisle on the sink side and a 46" aisle on the refrigerator/seat side...a little tight, I think (48" to 54" would be better w/seating). BUT, then you would have to go around the island to get to the refrigerator...I'm afraid the island would become a "barrier island". OTOH, if you have a 48" aisle b/w the range and the island, that may actually provide you with better access to the refrigerator since it would be a much straighter shot... (That would leave you w/a 6' or so island...only enough room for 3 at the most...unless you can extend into the FR a foot or so and add a seat on that end...up to 4 seats then...)

Give us some time to work with this...this is a challenge!

I'm a little confused by the dimensions as displayed. I get that the sink wall is 12'4", but the stove wall measurement is confusing. Is it 12' or 12'+2'4" or 12'+2'4"+24" counter depth? If it's either of the latter two--which it looks like at a glance--then you have plenty of room for an island. We have 14'9" and have a fairly large island. Just wait for buehl to get going, though. She'll come up with some great solutions for you.

Any of the following open to tweaking at this point?
- bump out kitchen sink window location?
- sink run v range run: could they (and the window) flip?
- desk: trade traditional for taller/shallow message ctr?
- utility/pantry/hall footprints?

Agree with Buehl that an island is worth exploring. Fridge placement is the key.

My first pass would be to put the entry hall where the pantry is. Rework the desk to a standup message center (with a stack of file drawers adjacent) with the idea you'd sit at the island or table for any lengthy writing.
Deploy the corner for your pantry....?

I'm no expert but I know I like to have a pretty big landing space right next to or right across from my fridge.
When I come in the house with an armload full of groceries I like to put all the bags on the counter and quickly get the cold stuff in the fridge. Also, when cleaning out or reorganizing the fridge it is nice to be able to set stuff close by.
For that reason I chose to put my fridge and oven/micro on different walls.
Also, I think it looks better not to have a wall of "tall stuff" with no counter top in between. But that is just personal preference.

God I am such a layout junkie... I should be working, but here is a quick very very rough shot:

Lots of ways to tweak (shrink, stretch, shift, etc) from here if you like the gross concept.

And opportunities for some cool features - e.g. I would be all over a passthrough for laundry baskets to the stairwell landing rather than dragging them through the kitchen, breakfast and family rooms. Vent the pantry with a small window. Recess a standard depth fridge. Drop zone recess in that hallway. On and on and on... so many places to deploy slivers for hyper function. Especially if you rethink those "display" runs and balance form with function. That is some serious real estate to fork over to display only...

Do you need a closet or utility closet anywhere? I don't see those in your plan.

Still thinking about your utility room.... what is that dotted stretch to the left in there? Would the room have other function than laundry?

Maybe give a bit of the utility room over to the back entry? Make more of a vestibule with a spot to lay down a bag or purse, hang a mirror or hooks for jackets. If it will be the main family entrance, a slightly nicer and bigger area there would be good. Plain and narrow main passageways bug me a little -too much bumping and "scuse me" and dropping things for a busy household.

oh my gosh, you people are amazing. where do i start?

remodelfla: yep, i agree, much better over in that sink corner, i'll ask for that.

buehl: our next meeting with the architect isn't for about 1.5 weeks, but i try to get him our "thoughts" after each set of drawings in between meetings to give him a chance to incorporate them before our next meeting. i'd greatly appreciate any input you have, the weekend would be great.

your point about the fridge and micro being on the perimeter and not under the cooks feet for others to access is right on, especially as our kids get older, but i have no clue how to accomplish this? as far as the coffee goes, it's not a daily thing for us, it would be mostly just when we're entertaining, so i don't need a dedicated coffee center, but a beverage fridge on the outside if not the main fridge may have a lot of merit.

as far as the island goes, i think i'd prefer a big, unfettered peninsula to a small island with flow issues, but i'm very visual, so it's hard for me to picture it without seeing it. maybe there is enough room if we borrow from the utility like celticmoon's mock up?

holigator: the stove wall is a total of 14' 4" - i double checked with the to-scale ruler. (12' + 2'4" for the depth of the appliances is what i think the architect was trying to show?).

celticmoon:
- we could bump out if we have to, but i'm trying not to unless there is a "MUST" reason. the issues being the mature blood orange we'd loose as well as we're really pushing the main floor sq. footage already, and my DH isn't willing to give up more of his 'real estate' in the basement ;p.

- the sink and the range could theoretically swap, but the window can't really. it overlooks the garden back yard which is one of the most spectacular features of the property.

- yes, it could be a standing height message center, i don't need the "desk" and was thinking base cab. not chair space for that area anyway. all i really intend that space for was phone, pen/pencil/paper drawer and phonebook storage underneath, cookbooks above. so as long as it's deep enough for cook book and phone book storage it does not have to be desk depth.

- the utility/pantry/hall foot print. i'll do my best to describe my 'vision'. hall is main entry for family from garage to house. utility needs W/D (preferably not stacked as i'm only 5'0") and a utility sink, a base cab that butts up to the garage wall for cat box access to the garage for emptying and then a "drop zone"/out the door area for all 4 of us (coats, back packs, keys, shoes, etc. type built-in (that's what's denoted by the +++++++ area in the utility room currently). i do 'need' (defined really want) a full walk in pantry.

ok, and now i get to your layout - you are a goddess. that's closer to my vision than anything my architect has thrown out in any of our versions in the old remodel or new whole rebuild 11 month process thus far.

as far as the stairs go, one direction goes up to phase 1 unfinished attic, the other goes down to DH's "cave" (office, rec room, home theater), so not anticipating laundry going up or down now or in the future. all bedrooms are on the main/ground floor.

utility closet - i was planning on just getting a freestanding broom closet type unit for in the garage against the wall. we're in no. ca. where even in the winter it's still in the low 60's most days, so going in and out isn't as big a deal to me. maybe that's short-sighted?

displays - the stair well display is new when he moved our stairs at the last meeting, not something i need at all. the dining room hutch, well, i'd like to have it for china/crystal storage, but i guess i don't have to. probably doesn't need to be that big at least.

california dreamer: i think i agree with you about a full wall of tall stuff, but i think the only way to accomplish that was to have the oven stack with the fridge like in the original, and that just seems so cluttered :(. maybe i'm just not seeing it right.

ok, i think i got it all. thank you all so much, again, and i can't wait to see what buehl comes up with.

Happy to help. It is a rough start but can evolve. If you want an island, certainly seems doable within the house perimeter as is. Comes down to rethinking the utility and pantry footprints. I do believe both could be smaller or more oddly shaped and function as well or better. Worth thinking through what you want to store and do in those spaces, and what is optimal to support that storage and activity. Well placed, well designed smaller storage areas can often work better than a larger area with shelves just thrown in. The cubby storage for kids might function better in a back hall/vestibule than tucked into the utility room.

I hear you on saving the tree. My bumpout question was about it shifting right or left or in width. (vs being fixed where it is due to exterior design factors). Because if you go with an island rather then a penninsula, the DW and sink can move a bit and centering the sink becomes esaier - maybe with tweaking the window. Hence my question.

The draft isn't perfect. The pantry is smaller. Utility also - though I wasn't liking the tight U anyway. Aisles are good with the utility narrowed. Cleanup might still cramp the stool perchers a bit - but they really ought to get up and help, right? I think the prep cook is a bit at risk for interference from fridge grazers, though most chopping etc would happen further down the island toward the range so that should be OK.

I'm ambivalent about the ovens placement. They could be up at the end left of the sink - positive is a visual block of the dirty dishes from the table and that MW is accessable to grazers outside the core work areas; negative is blocking the light and openness with an appliance stack there. Or the ovens could go between the cooktop and pantry. Or between ovens and fridge as you had them. Wherever, problem is that the baker has to cross the range station or clean up area to get to the ovens. As problems go it is not that awful, but short of the ideal: the ovens being in the bake center.

There are always some compromises.

Looking forward to Buehl's thoughts.

ok, so i had to put this into sketch-up to really get a feel for traffic/aisle space, etc. i think it really does solve a lot of the problems, but creates some food for thought too. i tweaked the island shape a little - thoughts?

{{gwi:1756155}}

so my 'new' questions are:

- am i ok with 42" aisles all the way around the island? the island winds up just shy of 4' across. would it be better to skinny up the island a tad and add those inches to the sink/dishwasher/stool interference aisle, or will i be ok since the stool will often be pushed under the overhang?

- seems like i should center the main sink under the window opening and not worry about the DD's making it look lopsided on paper, right?

- do i still 'need' a beverage area (beverage fridge) somewhere, or am i ok now that the main fridge is on the outside of the perimeter/not in the cooks way?

- when i start thinking about cabinet layout, my instinct is grouping the baking stuff above the oven (sheets) and the right side of the island across from the oven (mixer, bowls, etc). but this would also be overlapping prep territory for the cooking. am i ok there? baking is a 2ish/monthly thing, but not a daily or even weekly thing for DH.

-which way would you have the door swing into the pantry?

- would i be better off moving the prep sink back more toward the center of the island?

-any thoughts on the reworked utility room? i think i've left enough space for the doors of the W/D to open fully, although the aisle between the boot bench/drop zone and utility sink is pretty narrow (just shy of 38"). would i be better off moving the utility sink down towards the w/d end of that counter?

thanks again for any input.
lori

I like it! The only thing I have to add right now is about the pantry door. I've seen them hung on hinges that swing both ways--kind of like those saloon style doors. I'm thinking about doing that in our new house...any thoughts on that?

Lorien,
Just finished reading this thread and I really like the last version. Much better than the penninsula with the huge wasted floor space in the middle.

One thing I would do is move the prep sink to the corner, between the cooktop and fridge. If you had a round sink or 5-sided sink, the faucet would be opposite the corner, accessible from both sides of the island, creating a larger prep area on each side of the sink. (Another poster used a 5-sided sink, that's why I suggested it.)

You could put a beverage fridge in the island, opposite the main fridge, bec a 42" counter depth is about the same as a standard depth 36", so you might need the extra space.

Yes, I definetly try to center the main sink. Can you make the wall cab to the left any narrower; I'd like to see a little more wall to the right of that cab. Oh wait, did you widen the bump-out sink wall? ... it looks bigger than in the first pic you posted.

There you go. A good start, no?

What are the dimensions of the kitchen footprint as you show it now (forgetting the sink and pantry bumps). The run from sink wall to back of fridge is what..15 feet now? And the depth of your fridge and oven stack is what?

Welcome next to the aisle width debate. Really a personal preference, with folks swearing by everything from 33 to 48 - and some even good with aisles outside that range. One thing for sure, door openings (fridge, DW and oven) are one variable to consider, and another is seating.

Time to start carrying a tape measure and at every opportunity, whip it out, and see what 38 vs 42 vs 48 feels like under different conditions. Or build a mockup with boxes and go through kitchen motions. One thing I've come to accept here is that people are different in what they like.

Speaking of seating - assuming your dining table is 42 wide, you won't have much passage space between an occupied stool and chair. (Penninsula plan was worse that way with no escape) Is that a problem? Narrower island would allow seating focused in the cleanup aisle.

And I'd like the MW to have its own prep and landing so those tasks don't tangle up the main prep island space. MW left of the sink is out of the way, but a long way from the fridge and freezer and the path traverses that seating block. Maybe leave the MW next to the fridge and move the oven? Undercounter? Or bite a chunk out of the pantry for a stack right of the range - possibly sliding the range a bit left? DH is the baker - maybe he can weigh in on oven location, under counter vs eye level, etc.

You are definitely getting closer...

I just saw a nice boot bench over on Rate my Space and thought of you. Sorry, I haven't learned how to post the picture directly into the message.

Here is a link that might be useful: Boot bench with storage

raenjapan: hmm, interesting thought on the pantry door. do you know if you can stop them in any position or do they always swing closed. i'm having visions of walking into the pantry and having the door swing shut behind me. i'll have to think on it.

napagirl: i'll go scour the FKB islands and see if i can find the sink you're talking about. i think moving the sink might make sense from a better use of the prep space, and maybe even a better source to fill pots from for the stove, etc. would it make a difference if i said we're considering making it the location of the filtered water, so people might be coming to that end of the island to fill a cup frequently?

i think your point about the 42 b.i. being 'equivalent' to the space of a 36" standard is a great one. we have a 36" french door standard in our current place now, and the thing i run out of most often is actually freezer space. but i think i may end up with a small chest deep freeze out in the garage. we'll see. in the mean time i'll add in the bev. fridge to the sketch-up. my builder will probably tell me i can't afford it ;p. thanks for the picture of the boot bench, i'll add it to my file.

celticmoon: yup, the 'new' layout measures 12' 4" across by 15' 1" deep, not including those bump outs. 2' 4" of that 15' 1" would be the depth on the fridge and oven stack. i hear you on the oven/micro stack, DH will definitely have some things to consider there as a) he's the one who's jonesing on the advantium and wants that to be not under-counter and b) he's the baker.

as far as the dining room table goes, i think it will be ok. it will normally probably be in whatever the smallest configuration is and i'll offset it a little from the center of the room if needed. the big opening on the left of the dining is the great room, so the plan has always been to flip the dining table into the lenthwise direction extending into the great room when we're entertaining large groups and the dining table is fully extended. since a dining set is one of the few pieces of new furniture i'm planning on getting for the new house (i'm tired of my very functional but very 'meh' block top hand-me-down), so i'll just see if i can't find something a tiny bit narrower too. several of the farm/harvest trestle tables i've been eyeing are in the 38-40" width.

thank you all so much again and i'll eagerly read anyone else's thoughts, layout ideas and opinions! happy holidays to those celebrating,
lori

Kohler 5-sided sink (will be our prep sink, can be rotated to put the cut off at any corner & then put the faucet there):
{{gwi:1620535}}

Also, as to a pantry door, we will have a corner pantry with the door opening out...away from our ovens. This will be our door (can be stained or painted any color plus special order woods such as cherry):

To give you an idea, our kitchen's corner pantry:

Links:

Kohler K-3345 Undertone Five-Sided Undercounter Kitchen Sink

Feather River Pantry Door

I didn't work up a layout b/c when I saw the latest I liked it...with the exception of lack of landing space for the oven...and the location of the prep sink.

I agree, move the prep sink to the corner. That will free up island space for refrigerator and, somewhat, landing space for your oven.

Although, now that I look more closely, the refrigerator is directly opposite the sink on the other side of the island...which makes the island a "barrier island"

Maybe I will work something up...but tomorrow...it's well past 1:00am here!

hmm, i'll have to go read up on barrier islands and figure out if the drawbacks are something i can live with. thanks for the door and sink ideas. i love that sink, but the price is pretty steep for a prep sink (or maybe i'm just spoiled by looking at the Ticor's everyone loves around here). i'll have to see if we can justify the splurge when we start the real shopping. i'd love to see how you'd tweak the layout.

thanks,
lori

Galaxy Tool Supply has Ticor prep sinks as well...Alku05 & others, for example, have the S905 Ticor round prep sink that would work similarly to the 5-sided...you just put the faucet where you want it on the circle. There's also a rectangular if you prefer...S805 Ticor Undermount Sink