LOL! Is that you Greg? I'm sorry I called you so much. But you were so incredibly awesome about returning my calls. One time you even called me from your vacation. You have no idea how much that meant to me! OK. So I worried about every stupid detail. And yes, you've done this a million times and know what you're doing. But thank you for understanding that my family and I were forking over a ton of $$ and had NEVER been through this before. So, yeah, we had questions. And yeah, we wanted to make sure we weren't going to get hosed. We soooo appreciate you understanding. And really, honestly, we appreciate what you do, and the fact that you understand where we're coming from.

Wow, someone is having a bad day! As a new person on this whole pool scene (still in the works) I think you hit the nail on the head saying "building in peoples backyards is a very personal thing." Most builders have the "luxury" of the client not being onsite potentially 24 hours a day staring at their work. Ask any homebuilder about their experiences and they will be right there with you. But you know this already.

Keep in mind, most so cal builders are in the unemployment line and seeking new careers these days. In Temecula, most are out of business or are close. You can't keep an office open on one pool in 6 months. The best builders have 1-3 jobs going at the most in this economy. I don't blame them for having a bad day.

I am in real estate and Sellers also deem marketing thier home as very personal. Over the years I have decided that clients are looking for three things. (Notice that money does not make the top three list. Rather, they are looking for value)

1. Can they communicate effectively with me? Do I return calls? Do we "connect" when we speak?

2. They want to feel like that I will look out for THIER best interests, even if that means putting my interests second. In other words, can they trust me.

3. Do they feel like that they could genuinely like me as a person.

When I go up against other agents during a listing presentation, I actually tell the Sellers to ask themselves these three questions. The agent that gets three "yes'" is the one that they should hire.
A lot of people can build a nice pool, and a lot of people can sell a house, but not many agents nor PBs can walk away from thier first meeting with the client, leaving behind three "yes'" to the questions above.

I am literally going for my first, very brief, dip in our new pool tonight... the relief that it is actually done is incredible.

Having just been through this, I'll tell you want I want if I do it again:

1. Communication. I understand that you have several pools on the go at any given time. I understand that you are relying on subcontractors that don't always honor their commitments. But help me out here. I have tens of thousands of dollars sunk in that big hole in the yard and that makes me nervous. Tell me what's going on would you?

2. Be proactive. It's not good communication to tell me at 5pm that yes, the [insert contractor here] will not be coming today as we had told you last week. If you tell me today that you can't get them here tomorrow that's a lot better than me wondering all day tomorrow where they are.

3. Did I mention communication?

4. I'm worried - deal with it. Just because you know it's all going to turn out well and that the pool will be great doesn't yet mean I am comfortable that this will happen. The industry has some bad guys and the economy isn't helping. Understand that, although you know exactly what you're doing, I am looking at my 5 figure investment and worrying that I am going to be one of those people that gets screwed. It's not personal - I don't know you. So humor me when I ask too many questions or worry too much.

5. Did I mention communication yet?

Our pool is beautiful - I truly admire the thought and the skill that went into making it happen. That's the difficult stuff - producing a good design and then making that design work out as planned is difficult. Picking up the phone and communicating with me openly and honestly is easy.

UKMatt

I feel your pain "just a pb", we've dealt with a few crazies in the past. Honesty, communication, education and reputation are not enough for them. You just have to realize this is all new to them, even though you do it every day. Maybe we should start a thread about the crazies just for laughs. I wont hijack your thread because as contractors we can learn from the posts here. We always say we want happy peppy clients, so chime in folks, feedback is welcomed. Barb

I am a pretty laid back client. My yard is a complete mess that I will have to redo at my own expense, but I knew that going in so I don't harp about it.

Communication is big. My PB has a project manager at the office that does all the scheduling. They seem to be lucky in this economy, as they have 2 other pools beside mine going on at the same time and those are just the ones I know about.

So I just want to know when a crew is coming out and what they are planing on doing. Not because I plan to build pools in the future, but because we are doing landscaping and need to take care of items, move equipment etc.

The PB's scheduler ever calls me about the schedule. I always call her and ask. It's dark out now, so we need the weekend before concrete comes, to remove sprinkler heads in the way amd cap off those PVC lines, so water doesn't fill behind the pool, or under the concrete.

Communication is really key.

If you are going to write a book let me know I'll write you a couple of chapters titled "crazy architects and pools" and "crazy home builders and pools".
Some of the stuff that's come up in the last couple of years really has me scratching my head on the site and laughing hysterically as I drive away.

Padrefan,
LOL, No not greg, but you get my point.

Ready,
Yes it was one of those.

Airborn and cascade,
We should start that thread, so many funny stories.
Thats why I like to get together with other builders so I know I am not alone out there.

Communication, communication, communication.
Yes this is a very important key, but over communication is bad too. I like to give generaliztions as to when subs are going to be on the job. I dont want to have to field phone calls of people saying its 11am and no one is here yet. Nobody has perfect control of their subs, there are to many things that can happen elsewhere that effects them.

Please keep the feedback coming.
Anybody else feeling guilty like Padrefan.

I've been quietly stewing as I read the blogs and envious of the wonderful build stories. We've gone from looking, to planning and took the big jump - so I ask what do you do when you have the big $ cement pond (obviously not finished) and the pool builder is driving YOU crazy? Too late now, he's got my yard and my money so I'll settle for bits of info when I can get it, the total lack of a customer service gene or empathy to the owner. UGH. My builder in the BR area has made me crazy - case in point, received phone call for my tile choices on a monday after providing a list of samples that I would like to see beyond the web/catalog the prior week. He said that I just needed to pick one so he could work. When I reminded him of the list & his offer to show us some of his customers' pools before, he said that it was too late & he was going to have to talk to my husband because I was just holding him up. Too late now - I just want this finished & this bozo out of my life. Sorry to all the good pb's out there. I'm not asking for much - just a little communication, actual follow-up and a hint of customer service. PS = his employees apologize for his crass attitude,saying he really can't help it...sigh.

Well, you may be a nice PB, but so far, almost every PB I have received quotes from has managed to mess stuff up from step 1. I have a very good idea of what we want, what equipment, what pool size (including drawings), what color stone, how many lights, etc. I give a list to the PB when they bid so we compare apples to apples.

EVERY SINGLE BID I have gotten back has left off some key element that I clearly asked for. I wanted Pentair Intellibrites -- they quote me no name regular lights. I ask for independent cotrol of the spa spillway and the waterfall -- they put it all on one pump along with the bubblers, the 2nd waterfountain and the jets. HELLO????

Why don't PBs listen? Or actually care enough to sit down and bid correctly?? I am not asking too much when I ask for quartz coping and they quote me concrete, am I.

I know why -- because they are trying to pull something over me. Their bid will look a LOT LESS than someone else's if they bid me a basic pool finish when I clearly state I want PebbleTec. Well, no offense but I would appreciate a little respect, a little more time and a bit more honesty from my PB.

So far, we haven't signed a contract because not a single BP here in San Diego has actually included the 10 basic things I asked for in my quote. The day I find a good PB that pays attention to details enough to put a thorough quote together is the day that I will hire him on the spot and go forward.

Kay

We are so crazy because time and time again the PBers sell them selves as the "best" and what shows up is "good enough" And we all know Good enough is the enemy of the best!
I can think of some stories like tile guy showing up stoned and getting home that night and seeing tile set all over the place or a leak in the spa that had to be chipped out and fixed and during the repair the guy running out of Hydro cement and finishing about a 3 foot x 18" deep section with thinset. (this one was great as that section just fell off) so ..... we are tought to be crazy.

Somehow I don't think we'd make many friends if we started that thread.

Seriously though, I think most people would expect a little more respect and freedom to just do their job from a client who has chosen to work with them than we often get.

I guess pool building is like making sausage - great product in the end but you may not want to see the whole, gnarly process? Amen to chillin - for us newbies, that is my fear and I sure a builder doesn't like 'do-overs'

Well I never had to call my PB as I put my trust in him. That is both good and bad. It took awhile to find the person I felt that way about but then I just sat back and watched. Not that I didn't want to call sometimes but if there was a problem it got fixed within a day or two without me saying a thing. Only time I would call was when PB told me to call if XYZ didn't happen on ???? He was looking for problems and corrected them. This might not be the best way to do it but it worked for me on this project. If only the kitchen remodel would have worked the same way. First time they tried to cover something up, trust gone.Had to work them over pretty good as they tried to get by with little things all the time.

I'd have to agree with sdkath...we've seen 6 PBs so far (SF Bay Area) and have gotten bids with 1/2 the elements we've asked for, have been laughted at (yes!) because we were asking questions ("you should trust me, I don't comment on how you do your job, let me do mine"...unbelievable!), completely wrong designs (straight grey retaining walls when we asked for stacked calistoga boulders on a freeform), price tags that are ridiculously inflated (tells you when they knocked down 20% right there when you wince)...overall, NO listening skills whatsoever. They just want to hurry us sign on the dotted lines. Terrible customer service, not even returning calls or following-up on estimate and you don't even have my money yet!!?? I don't think so...still looking...

I don't get too many crazies as I screen potential clients before we even set an appointment. I better keep them to myself. I do have some pretty funny stories I could post, I'll start a thread later. I will say to Kay and aquarius lady that your contractor is out there somewhere, you just need to keep looking. It sounds like you are both dealing more with commissioned salespeople than the builder. I don't blame either one of you for being irritated. And I say again, this is a great thread for builders to learn how to better a business. Barb

just-a-pb,

I can relate from both sides. I used to build custom homes.

When it came time to build our own in ground pool and I became the customer, the goal was for a dark plaster shell with tight-grained gray slate tile on the waterline. We took a stock 20' by 40' an added a few feet here, another few feet there.

Nothing bright blue. Neutral colors to blend with the wooded setting.

So they dug the hole. Too small. They assured me, no, it's correct. I gave in, figuring that I just wansn't properly envisioning the final size.

Turned out I was right, they were wrong, but they didn't fess up until after the rebar cage was in the ground. So a bit of yanking out of the rebar, a bit more digging, and we got the pool to the planned size.

The trucks showed up to shoot the 'crete. Very cool process. I really enjoyed watching, until I noticed that there were no light pots...and they had a pool water return about 5' on each side of the surface skimmer. Nice flow plan there, eh?

Oh, c'mon. Bicker bicker, it wasn't even close to the plans, and all I got was "there's nothing we can do about it now. Well, I grabbed a margin trowel, jumped in the shell, and asked if they wanted me to do it or them. 15 minutes later the returns and light pots were in the correct locations.

My wife woke me at 6:30 am to tell me that they were tiling the waterline of the pool! Cool! Progress! Until I peeked out our bedroom window to see the early morning sun shining off the extremely bright blue waterline tile. Where's my gray slate?

I went out and stopped work. Called the company owner. He got a bit too proud over the phone, so I told the guys to take it down now. I can still hear the "tinkle tinkle" sound of the 2" square tiles falling to the bottom of the pool shell.

The plan had 2" slate squares, set on a diagonal, on the edges of the pool steps, the swim out bench, and the spa steps. "Nope, can't do that, the slate doesn't cut well." I took it in my basement, fired up the wet saw, cut it, tossed the box of pieces back at them. Sheesh.

Came home after they backfilled around the pool beam, 6" wire mesh was down, the slab was to be poured the next day. Gorgeous! Progress! Getting closer to the end.

Walked down my driveway to get the mail and noticed that about 2/3rds of a HUGE pile of compost was missing.

Naw...they couldn't have. Sho 'nuff, I dug down a couple of inches and they backfilled against the pool shell and filled the plumbing pipe trenches with compost! Then covered it with 4 or 5 inches of subsoil.

Grrrr.

I fired them. Don't know what it was, they're a well regaded company throughout CT. And they were the high bidder!

Other than that, everything went great. Pool's been in for 5 or 6 years, not a problem.

Mongo

just-a-pb says: So please give me your feedback, what are you all really looking for?

Well, after my experience with Viking Pools of the Greater Valley:

I am "really looking for" a pool builder who will actually install a pool...NOT take my deposit and run. Homeowners give deposits to pool builders because WE WANT A POOL!

That's not asking too much. :)

People do go crazy when you are in their yard. The best experiences are just when they let you do your work and not try to micro-manage the process. Engineers are terrible. When I built homes, they always thought they knew how to do it. Now it's the same with pools. I have turned down business from people I felt would be a problem during construction. Believe me, if they are problems in negotiations, they will be a problem in construction and then afterward. You have to figure that 10% of your customers will NEVER be happy, no matter what you do. I still stress over it, but I am learning to not let those people destroy me. 90% of my customers are very happy.

"So please give me your feedback, what are you all really looking for?"

Because most pool builders don't actually build pools, but their SUBcontractors do, I am looking for a pool builder that will either A) be there AT ALL TIMES when a subcontractor is there making sure it's done right or B) be cooperative when I call him and ask questions or make suggestions or report problems BECAUSE HE ISN'T THERE AND I AM.

So, unless A is possible, you are just gonna have to deal with option B!

I agree Snookums, but most times you are gonna get option B. And you should call right then, don't wait if you see something not right. A a contractor I would rather get it right the first time, "go backs" cost more.

if I had 10% unhappy clients I would "take the bridge" like we used to say in PGH. I've had 3 in 9 years and fixed them all, basically had to play marriage counselor in all 3. And the best part is none of the 3 were married and the non=owner of the property was the problem. I just look at it as a live and learn situation, just like this thread. Keep posting folks. Barb

Hahaha, funny thread.

I havnt had too many bad experiences with clients. Some funny ones though? yes indeed.

I had an older couple just months ago let me know, during my design process, that they wanted to have a lot of sex in their pool. I just about threw up in my mouth....hahaha. Good for them I guess, a little too much info for me though. I sold the pool, over 100k, and I guess they are "liking" it now as we finished it.

I've had the drunk customers who call me in the evening to let me know how great their spa is feeling, or how much fun their party is they're throwing etc... I dont mind those drunk dialers, they're entertaining.

If I had to catagorize any customers as "crazy" I would narrow it down to the couples that seem as though they haven't had a single conversation with eachother about the pool/yard prior to having me or my company come out. One has a 20k budget, the other has a 60k budget. One wants a freeform lagoon, the other ultra contemporary geometric.... any combination of these disagreements can lead to an awkward argument, somtimes a loud "fight" with me sitting there quietly, occsionally trying to distract the argument and get back on topic. When its very bad, I will usually set up a meeting for the next week and ask them to think about it and agree on a style and budget prior to our next meeting. Spending hours designing a pool for one of them is a waste of time, usually.

I'll think of some more....

Maybe THAT is the problem that PBs start out thinking that customers are so crazy.....

But, we do enjoy the finished project. Happy Pool Building!

Knocked the dust off this one.

Simple - Their pool builders drive them nuts!!

Got more for my chapter on "crazy architects". Spent the last month trying to educate one. I lost. It's all form over function for this guy. I hope I'm not the one who has to explain it all to the customer when it's done.

Amuzing thread....being on the homeowner side, I can share some stories that show some "craziness" I witnessed on the PB side of the relationship also.

Some things that come to mind when we were building: The steel crew built a lean-to in our backyard and spent the night. That was a surprise to wake up in the morning, look out the window and find 3 grown men sleeping together under a 4'x8' sheet of plywood propped against one of our trees. The funny thing is they said they were told to stay there by the PB who was shocked and amazed when I shared this story.

Another story of the PB's wife getting mad because one of his former clients sent in pictures of herself, scantilly clad, posing around the pool that he just completed for her....funny story indeed.

All in all, our experience was about the same as any other construction process we have been involved (built 3 custom homes before our pool). It is a relationship between builder and customer and each party brings certain expectations to the table. Also, as in any relationship, there is some give and take and compromise is always part of a succesful relationship....along with a few funny and "crazy" stories.

My 2 cents!

The reason customers are so crazy is because they are the ones staring at the mess in their backyards, the kids are driving them crazy with when can they go swimming, the builder won't return their calls, nothing their salesman told them was true, the guy that was supposed to be in charge of the pool was there day one to get the check and hasn't been back since, the subcontractors pretend that no one speaks English, and so on and so forth. It is all about setting expectations and meeting those expectations. Builders seem to think that times haven't changed and that there isn't a new breed of customer out there. People have much higher expectations these days. That BMW they bought a couple of months ago (which cost as much as the pool they just bought) got follow ups and customer service was off the chart. They expect the same from the pool and builders just don't deliver it. Builders are stuck in the 70s and think that customers are crazy (okay, there are some crazy ones out there). They don't realize that they are the ones driving the customers crazy. Simply returning phone calls, even the nasty ones, helps reduce the craziness.

Here is a link that might be useful: How to survive buying and building a swimming pool

Spammer,
Please go away.

Spammer? Why do you keep calling my posts spam? The link I provided was just something that I found to be interesting, informative and useful.

Four posts with the same useless blog link. I call that trying t bring traffic. Traffic brings ad revenue. that is what it appeared to me to be.

quote" one of his former clients sent in pictures of herself, scantilly clad, posing around the pool that he just completed for her....funny story indeed. "quote

I guess the PB's wife just didn't get it!!!
This gal was obviously proud of herself, the new pool, and wanted to share her excitement with those who made it possible. I wonder if her personal trainers wife was upset too!!!

I could write a book on some of the crazy and funny things I've seen over the decades.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly-

Yep...she probably didn't get it and I bet the PB never even got a chance to see the pictures.....she opened the mail before he did!

The PT's wife was probably use to it!

quote" The PT's wife was probably use to it! "quote

LMAO!!!!!

I'm sure she is!!!

See ya,
Kelly

A semi-famous quote:

"All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

Possibly a customer is "crazy" because he is new to asking the questions, but the builder is "sane" because he is tired of answering any questions. At some point we all have asked questions to learn for the first time.

A not so famous forum guest once asked, "How high in relation to the heater and filter can a pump be placed?"

The answer must be "self-evident" because I haven't heard it.

I do thank everbody for the help and advise. And trust me, my sense of humor is still at the ridicule stage.