Hey Sherlock! :) Sounds like you have managed to ferret out a lot of info. Hope it ends up coming together for you somewhere.

Your story really gives me pause in thinking about all the foreclosures out there.
How on earth do they find one single house in this mess? Remember, AHM & ABC have sold thousands of these CDOs with tens of thousands of properties wrapped into them.
He probably didn't tell anybody about the mid-stream, ongoing foreclosures he had outstanding at the time his company imploded?

As in how will banks sell foreclosures if they are so swamped they can't even track ownership much less title? Will these banks go belly up because they can't figure out how to unload their properties?

As for suggestions, I don't know much about this stuff. I'd might be trying to figure out where the file was when things imploded and the the person that arranged to box and ship the entire office to storage - as in where did they go to storage? But probably not practical.

He also told us that we were "not alone in wanting the house" & that there were "others" (hmmm?);

I have to say that you might think to email the powers that be and have the post deleted (saving it 1st). If there is someone else trying to crack this, they go to google, then find this post. GW is usually listed on google very soon after posts are made. There was a post about a month ago that actually showed as the #1 google entry the day after it was posted. I would hate to see your detective work give someone else a lead in getting this house.

"He also told us that we were "not alone in wanting the house" & that there were "others" (hmmm?);"

I'd guess he is interested himself. Adjacent property. Attorney (=good chance he has money). A potential "steal" deal. Hello!

What a story. Very, very interesting but I also have to say if I was you I would stop providing so many details to us on gardenweb because it really can harm your own strategy to obtain this property at a great price.

Well, it looks like you may have a couple of good ideas.... either through adverse possession (that would take guts, I couldn't do it) or a tax foreclosure (years away). If this house is lost in the shuffle, it will eventually hit tax foreclosure.

All I can say is you seem to have some misguided thinking regarding this property so you are either getting some bad advice or are in desperate need of some good advice. I've represented banks in the sale of their properties and if you don't understand that they take possession and ownership of their property seriously you are wrong.

Banks take a long time to do things because they follow proper legal procedure. They expect interested parties to do the same and they won't play ball with anyone who doesn't play by their rules. Walking in the front door locked or not is criminal trespassing if you do not have permission to be there. Lawyers can argue case law all day long but if end up in front of a judge I doubt in these troubled times you'll be rewarded for your behavior- I think you would be made an example of what not to do.

I seriously think she is kidding. If you were following her other thread, someone joked about it, she's joking back.

Mary, good idea about tracking where the physical files are stored & who moved them. I'll follow through...thanks.

Roselvr, I'm not too concerned about GW unless Forum members don't want me to make further saga posts about this journey? I do, however, appreciate your concern. This BK filing has so many Goggle hits that I doubt one coming from GW is going to get much priority. Even if it does, other than making an enemy from the neighbor don't see what harm it can do?

Jrdlh, yep...that's what we think to. We also believe he knows a whole lot more than he told us. He tried to steer us in the wrong direction. I couldn't understand one of his sentences & asked him to repeat. When he did...he spelled Mayer's name as "Mier". I think he did that on purpose & since he didn't know DH was also an attorney who would immediately recognize the name of that law firm probably thought he'd sent us on a wild goose chase.

Xamsx, yes...we've discussed tax sale with counsel and it would take at least two years. We're prepared to pay the taxes if they go delinqeunt. And, yes again. Adverse possession would take guts. But, like the saying goes...no guts, no glory! :) And, rest assured, we'd never do it unless counsel tells us we'd likely prevail in a motion to quiet title.

/tricia

newgardenelf,

I'm sorry. I don't know you from the Forum yet. Don't believe we've met?

My DH is an attorney & a respected & well-known banker. I also am an experienced lender & banker. We are well aware of how banks handle assets but thank you for your "lesson" and the tone in which it was delivered. :(

/t

Since I & others have been tossing this term around I thought it might be worthwhile to provide a definition:

First, adverse possession is NOT ILLEGAL. Yes, it non-conformist but it is not illegal.

On that note, what IS adverse possession?

Here's Wiki's description...

"Requirements for adverse possession

Adverse possession requires three elements in regards to the possession of the property[1]:

physical (actual, visible, notorious, exclusive)
mental (hostile)
temporal (continuous)

In simple terms, this means that those attempting to claim the property are occupying it exclusively (keeping out others) and openly as if it were their own. Some jurisdictions permit accidental adverse possession as might occur with a surveying error. Generally, the openly hostile possession must be continuous (although not necessarily constant) without challenge or permission from the lawful owner, for a fixed statutory period in order to acquire title. Where the property is of a type ordinarily only occupied during certain times (such as a summer cottage), the adverse possessor may only need to have exclusive, open, hostile possession during those successive useful periods, for the required number of years.

[edit] Effect of adverse possession

An adverse possessor will be committing a trespass on the property that they have taken and the owner of the property could cause them to be evicted by an action in trespass ("ejectment") or by bringing an action for possession. All common law jurisdictions require that the action of trespass is brought within a specified time, after which the true owner is assumed to have acquiesced. The effect of a failure by the land owner to evict the adverse possessor depends on the jurisdiction.

In some (such as England and Wales), the title of the landowner will be automatically extinguished once the relevant limitation period has passed. This process now only applies to unregistered land.

In other jurisdictions, the adverse possessor acquires merely an equitable title: the land owner being a trustee of the property for them.

Adverse possession only extends to the property adversely possessed. If the original owner had a title to a greater area (or volume) of property, the adverse possessor does not obtain all of it.

In some jurisdictions, a person who has successfully obtained title to property by adverse possession may (optionally) bring an action in land court to "quiet title" of record in their names on some or all of the former owner's property. Such action will make it simpler to convey the interest to others in a definitive manner, and also serves as notice that there is a new "owner" of record, which may be a pre-requisite to certain benefits (including equity loans, or judicial standing as an abutter). However, even if such action is not taken, the title is legally theirs, with most of the benefits and duties, including paying property taxes to avoid losing title to the tax collector. The effects of having a stranger to the title paying taxes on property may vary from one jurisdiction to another."

End of Wiki

There's truth to the saying that possession is 9/10th of the law.

There are benefits to the community at large to adverse possession. In this instance, a property sits abandoned & deteriorating which lowers property values for surrounding properties. Also, no property taxes are being collected. An adverse possession can be deemed a positive in such a situation.

As I've noted in several posts, a motion to quiet title aids in clarifying ownership. There is some case law that supports adverse possession in less than statutory time frames.

It's an interesting subject of property rights.
I find it amusing & a bit confounding that some seem to feel it's not a valid or rightful way to obtain title. We are a country steeped in common law.

/tricia

You are correct we haven't met-I've been over in the garden forum for some time but not spent much time on these threads.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings but not everyone is aware of how banks handle assets and I honestly didn't think you were joking. I've had clients do strange things based on information they got from friends or off the internet including enter vacant property only to be escorted out by the police.

You may disagree with me but I find many people in real estate forums earnestly looking for answers in order to best protect themselves from making mistakes regarding their real estate decisions. Perhaps I'm too zealous in my desire to inform- clearly you have the resources to make sound judgements.

I stand by my post because I've seen banks exact revenge just because they can. I am also lucky (or unlucky depending on your point of view) to have married into a family of lawyers and judges and sometimes the choices they make given their understanding of calculated risk doesn't apply to folks without similar resources.

Good luck and best wishes on acquiring your dream home.

Roselvr, I'm not too concerned about GW unless Forum members don't want me to make further saga posts about this journey? I do, however, appreciate your concern. This BK filing has so many Goggle hits that I doubt one coming from GW is going to get much priority. Even if it does, other than making an enemy from the neighbor don't see what harm it can do?

Tricia, I'm enjoying reading about this but worry that you might lose the property because someone else that's interested in it reads something and they get there 1st, whether it's by adverse possession or finding a piece of info they didn't have but do now.

I agree I love a good story! Let the saga continue and those who aren't interested don't read.

I'm one of those have-to-know people who also doesn't sleep much which explains how I ended up on this thread in the first place. So for the curious who don't already know but want to.. more on CT adverse possession....

"Connecticut law recognizes adverse possession as a way to acquire title to property. Adverse possession is a method of acquiring title to real estate, accomplished by an open, visible, and exclusive possession uninterruptedly for a 15-year period (CGS 52-575; Whitney v. Turmel 180 Conn. 147 (1980)). Connecticut also recognizes the right to acquire a right-of-way or other easement by continuous, uninterrupted use of someone else's land for 15 years (CGS § 47-37). "

Just in case your neighbor might be trying to creep onto your land..... "The 15-year period comes from CGS § 52-575 which establishes this time frame for an owner to assert his ownership claim over an adverse possessor.

A landowner who wishes to interrupt an adverse possession claim may serve a notice on the adverse possessor and record it on the land records. Such service and notice is an interruption of the use and possession and prevents the acquisition of a right by continuing the use and possession thereafter."

triciae I told hubby about your saga. He was intrigued and found slightly different information then was given to you by the neighbor. AHM is the servicer, Wells Fargo was the master servicer for all the deals he could find related to AHM. Deutsche Bank securitized most of the AHM loans. From the schematic (in the link below) Bank of NY is the interest rate derivatives counterpart, not the servicer for this loan (if the property is in this loan).

He could only work with the information I gave him and couldn't find a $650K loan securitized in May or June of '06 in one of the two zip codes that I gave him to search. However, he only spent a few minutes on it. His opinion is you give Wells Fargo a call because they've typically been the master servicer.

You may want to give this link a go. If not this deal, there must be another one close to it where the loan was securitized.

Wells Fargo? Just read an AP story out of Cleveland where the City tore down a home being renovated. The owner of record: Wells Fargo Bank of Minnesota.

The City of Cleveland has adopted an aggressive demo strategy to end blight. Wells Fargo had foreclosed on the house. In August the City threatened to fine WF $20K if the bank didn't correct code violations. The bank hired the work done; $19K in repairs were completed. But...they didn't notify the City or file for permits for the work.

Some argued that it would have been "common sense" for the wreckers to see the house was in good condition. Now there is a real lack of common sense! You give a crew the address of a house to be demolished; they go take it down and submit their bill! (Unless they get the house next door in error.)

Banks owning RE (even if they know they own it) -- not the best for anyone. BTW, the bank says it will now deed the vacant lot to the City.

Xamsx,

Thanks!

The foreclosure deed transferred title to Bank of NY/Mellon & when I called AHM's remaining servicing unit they confirmed that Bank of NY/Mellon was handling all of the foreclosed properties (REOs) for the Conduit. So, I'm really confused about Wells Fargo? But, I'll go over the link tonight carefully so thanks again very much. My son is over this afternoon (his wife & kids are away so he's here to be fed I think! lol)

I'll report back to you after I've had a chance to really study the link.

Thanks...
Tricia

So... in layman's terms, this "adverse possession" is sort of like "squatter's rights", except that you are bringing the property tax bill up to date?

"Oh, I also learned that FannieMae seized assets intended to pay mortgage payments, homeowners insurance, & property taxes. So, there are hundreds of Americans out there now who made their house payments just like they were supposed to do & now are delinquent on taxes & insurance! Can you imagine? I'd be soooo mad!"

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that this is happening to a small number of Countrywide borrowers too. And Countrywide hasn't even truly gone belly up yet!

Please don't stop posting on this house - I'm hooked!! However, as some of you may remember, I was burned when someone in the forum read a post of mine & forwarded it my previous realtor causing all sorts of havoc. So I understand the concern. That said, I would be concerned about the lawyer/neighbor learning of your plans. I'm sure you're right & that he knows more than he's telling and would probably also like to get it for a bargain - who wouldn't? It's a GREAT house.

I love the idea of adverse possession in this case. It's not like you're unwilling to buy the house - you just have to find out who's selling. In the meantime, maybe you should move in some clothes & an inflatable mattress before someone else gets the idea??

I still haven't poured over the link mfbenson graciously provided. It's going to be my night time reading this evening! DH's bank was closed today so we had an extra day together & took advantage of it with a picnic at Newport, RI.

guvnah, DH, I, and our counsel are all thinking that if an owner can't be located then adverse possession makes real sense in this case. We have a 'plan' ready to implement that's not far off your suggestions. But, we really MUST make every reasonable effort to locate the owners & document those efforts for the Court. And, should we be able to do so we're willing buyers like you said.

What a journey!

/tricia

In the FWIW Department - Criminal Tresspass in CT from my Lexis Legal Research.

§ 53a-108. Criminal trespass in the second degree: Class B misdemeanor.

(a) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the second degree when, knowing that such person is not licensed or privileged to do so, (1) such person enters or remains in a building, or (2) such person enters or remains on public land.

(b) Criminal trespass in the second degree is a class B misdemeanor.

Conn. Gen. Stat. § 53a-108

That being said - in order to charge you with a misdemeanor states require the police to witness the offender commit the criminal act or there has to be another witness who will sign an affidavit and testify in court.

So, if you break and enter the property with the intent to remain in the property - which the lawyer neighbor will surely tell on you - then you could be spending some time in misdemeanor court. :P I'd suggest that you could get away with a Not Guilty by Reason of Temporary Insanity. =:O

MP
(I be a lawyer too)

P.S. For those who are wondering - before you say nobody broke anything - In legal terms "break" does not require that you physically break something it means some part of your body or an extension thereof has broken the plane of the building, like you stuck your hand in an open door or window.

In doing more research for the owners I've found this...looks like American Home Mortgage has resolved the Freddie seizure of tax & insurance payments issue.

"American Home Mortgage Clarifies Certain Information Regarding its Servicing Operations
Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae Issues Resolved; Property Tax Checks Mistakenly Dishonored by Outside Financial Institution Will be Honored

MELVILLE, N.Y.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 25, 2007--American Home Mortgage Investment Corp. (OTC:AHMIQ) ("American Home") announced today that it has resolved the issues surrounding the Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae owned loans.

American Home currently services more than 220,000 loans, of which approximately 4,600 are serviced for Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae. Immediately prior to American Home's bankruptcy, both Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae took direct control of the homeowner escrow accounts where the monies were deposited by American Home to pay taxes and insurance. Consequently, American Home had been unable to make payments that were due after August 24. American Home is pleased that it has now reached agreements with both Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae regarding these matters.

-- Both Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae have made available the funds
in the homeowner escrow accounts, and American Home has paid
on the behalf of homeowners all tax and insurance remittances
scheduled to be made between August 24 and today

-- Homeowners will not be liable for any penalties or interest
that may have been incurred due to late payment of tax and
insurance

-- In addition, arrangements have been made so that homeowner
escrow funds will be available in the normal course to pay all
taxes and insurance due in the future.

As part of its agreements with Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae, American Home expects to realize value from its servicing rights related to Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae loans for the benefit of its estate. In the case of Freddie Mac, American Home has agreed to temporarily transfer servicing to Bank of America, and Freddie Mac has agreed to allow American Home to sell the servicing rights to a permanent buyer. In the case of Ginnie Mae, American Home has been granted a limited period of time to sell the servicing rights associated with these loans. American Home believes these consensual resolutions are fair and should prevent any further disruptions to administration of the homeowner's escrow accounts.

American Home further noted that this matter concerned only Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae; no other mortgage-backed securities portfolios were affected. For the balance of its approximately $60 billion servicing portfolio, American Home continues to submit tax and insurance payments on a timely basis.

Separately, American Home announced it had resolved a situation concerning a limited number of checks that were dishonored due to bank error. In early August, due to confusion on the part of an outside financial institution regarding accounts affected by the American Home bankruptcy, approximately 500 property tax checks were mistakenly dishonored. This misunderstanding has been corrected.

-- American Home has actively worked to replace any dishonored
checks to date and stands ready to do continue to do so.

-- Tax authorities that may have received dishonored checks may
contact (866) 540-5834 to pursue replacement.

American Home regrets any inconvenience or anxiety caused to homeowners as a result of either of these situations. The Company's objective is to continue to provide high quality mortgage servicing to homeowners."

I'm glad they issued an apology.

/tricia

mmelko said "So, if you break and enter the property with the intent to remain in the property - which the lawyer neighbor will surely tell on you"

Who's he gonna tell? Police, yes, but without the owner could they make you leave? This would certainly force his hand if he IS in contact with the owner or knows how to contact them.

guvnah,

Those are questions DH presented to our counsel last Friday. They'll be talking again tomorrow. Attorneys are often licensed to practice in more than one state. DH is licensed to practice in one of the New England states, but, ahem, that is not CT. :( That's, along with knowing we need outside counsel, is why we retained local counsel last Friday.

It's my understanding, right now, that it's the owner who has to protest our adverse possession...not the neighbor. But, we'll see what counsel says tomorrow.

Interesting lesson for all of us...

/tricia

On the CBS evening news tonight there was a story about the increasing problem of foreclosed houses (that's news?) One of the side effects they noted was falling property values because of the surplus of houses for sale. Another consequence was that foreclosed houses were attracting squatters, causing neighbors to become concerned. So Tricia isn't the only one thinking of this. If you have a broadband connection you might be able to snag the story off the CBS web-site. I only have dial-up, so I can't begin to make a link.

Molly~

" still haven't poured over the link mfbenson graciously provided."

Sorry, but I can't take credit for this one, it was xamsx's link.

"One of the side effects they noted was falling property values because of the surplus of houses for sale."

My area hasn't had so much falling property values as flat property values. We've had the foreclosure problem (and the flat values) for quite some time now (about 10 years ago a major employer up and left the area) I guess it could always get worse but these prices are already depressed from a decade ago.

What a saga! I have a kinda similar situation tracking down a loan satisfaction for deed of trust that was filed improperly, and the company that filed the DofT declared bankruptcy shortly thereafter. When I finally got to the one person who was handling the case, he told me they had shredded all the documents earlier this year, so has no evidence to support my case. That one's, unfortunately, headed for a judge.

Why don't you call the Bankruptcy Court handling the case, and ask who the case has been assigned to? You'll probably have to go through several layers of people. If a trustee has been assigned, get that person's name and phone number. Tell them your situation. Tell them you want to buy the house, if they will tell you how to proceed.

If this case has just landed on his/her desk, he/she may not have any ability to unravel all the details yet. Sounds like that's going to take some doing, any way. Be persistent. Follow up with the trustee once a week or so. If you are a squeaky wheel, you may eventually get the grease your house.

I would be careful with the attorney/neighbor. With his level of interest, it sounds like he has his eye on buying the house too. *If* you decide to do adverse possession, he may have you arrested for trespassing. That'd pretty much kill your hopes for working through the BK court.

I wish you much luck!

The neighbor couldn't have them arrested for tresspassing as he is not the owner. He could just tell on whoever squats there. The police then would come out and find the squatter. While the owner of the property is certainly the victim - it's the state or in this case probably the municipality who brings the charges. All crimes are brought in the name of a city, county or state not the victim. That's why you see State v. John Doe in criminal actions and not Joe Blow v. John Doe in criminal case titles.

In Tricia's scenario - the cops would probably just make them leave since they can't find the "victim" - if she just kept coming back I would expect eventually someone would get tired of them and eventually find the owner. In theory it could probably work, but practically speaking that's another story.

This is interesting, I can't wait to read the continuing story.

MP