I don't understand that drawing. Is that a wall with nothing on it at the right side of the kitchen? And what's going on with the island? I don't understand what those little things along the bottom row are (below the DW, sink, etc.).

Here are some issues that jump out at me from this layout:

- Two tables so close to each other? That seems weird. Why not put seating on the outside of the island instead of that little table at the end? You would get a lot more island seating that way, and also you wouldn't have someone sitting IN the kitchen right in the traffic path between range and fridge.

- Sink across floor from range (instead of on same counter run or around the corner). This is a safety issue. It can work in certain configurations where the traffic pattern allows or where there are no kids or pets in the household, but your kitchen is open on both sides (so people can come towards the cook from either direction), which makes it more of a safety issue, and your kitchen has plenty of room to put the sink on the same run as the range. So I'm not seeing the point of putting it on the island. BTW, you can keep the DW on the island--it doesn't have to be next to the sink, just near it.

- MW all the way across the kitchen from the fridge. Normally these are close together because the MW is used to heat leftovers, frozen meals etc. that come from the fridge. Putting them far apart creates a lot of unnecessary traffic, and that traffic will cut right through the main work area.

- Pantries and hutch on other side of island from range. If you plan on keeping anything in these pantries that you would ever need when cooking, such as canned goods, oatmeal, baking supplies etc., this setup will get annoying fast. Also, why such shallow pantries?

- Trash/recycling pullout: in this configuration the cook will do most prep work between the sink and the DW, because people naturally tend to prep between sink and range and that's the stretch of counter that is closest to both. This configuration means no one can access the trash while someone's cooking (or that is, they will have to ask the cook to move). Also, the cook will have to move every time she wants to throw something away. And of course, with the natural prep space being between the sink and the DW, no one can do dishes while the cook is prepping. In other words this configuration scrambles the zones, which creates inefficiency. You have plenty of room to keep the zones separate, and that will be far more efficient.

See, the thing is, you might expect prepping to take place on the counter to the right of the range, since it's not far from the sink either, but that would require the cook to pick up all the freshly washed stuff and carry it across the aisle. That's just not what a human being is likely to do, especially because you often also need the trash while prepping and the trash is on the island. So what this configuration does is work against natural human instincts--in other words, natural human instincts would lead a person to use this kitchen in an inefficient way, by doing almost everything on the island, which scrambles the zones and leaves that whole nice long counter run to the right of the range unused. The way to solve this in a kitchen of this shape is to put the sink (or at least A sink, i.e. a prep sink) on the same counter run as the range.

So I think your needs might be better served by a U-shaped kitchen (i.e. attach the island to the wall on the right, get rid of any wall that extends beyond the island, and put the pantry/hutch inside the kitchen on the closed end of the U). Making the pantries deeper, with pullouts, would mean you might only need one of them, so that closed end of the U would not need to be super long.

A U-shaped kitchen with the closed end facing the garage will mean you can't walk straight into the kitchen from the garage, but if the fridge is on the far end of the kitchen you will be carrying groceries that distance anyway. It is no more effort to carry them on the kitchen side of the island or the outside of the island (or peninsula, since with a U-shaped kitchen the island would become a peninsula).

Sorry for the confusing drawing. We are learning to use the software. The wall on the right is gone totally in this drawing. My goal in this attempt is to just open the kitchen up and get a little more light in it.

As far as the bar goes, the small things are just all individual cabients, as we had to add them all seperately to make the bar the size we wanted it to be. Those details we'll work on at another time.

I put the seating at the end of the bar just because it felt strange to have nothing. The original plan had bar stools on the side of the bar, but it made walking in from that door difficult if someone was sitting on the stools. Of course, if we were to open up the entire kitchen like this, that wouldn't be as big of a concern.

So, you'd recommend closing up the wall and moving the pantry cabinets over? And I would just leave that bottom side of the kitchen wall totally blank?

It wouldn't be blank, it would (in what I was suggesting) have seating all along the island/peninsula, so there would need to be more room on that side (to accommodate both the seating and people walking past). If you wanted some kind of accent there you could put a bookshelf on that wall for cookbooks and such--bookshelves are shallower than just about anything else, so it would still leave you enough room for sitting there and walking past. But to figure that out exactly, you would need to post measurements (a hand-drawn sketch with measurements would be fine). I'm assuming that the island you drew is only about 25" wide, and of course to put seating there you would need to add another 14" or so for the overhang.

What looked weird to me about the table at the end was that you have a dining table a few feet away. Usually when people have dining tables, i.e. when the kitchen isn't the only place to eat, kitchen seating is more casual and it takes the following forms:
(1) bar height or counter height on the island (or peninsula), with stools; or
(2) a breakfast nook; or
(3) a table and chairs IN the kitchen (this obviously only works with kitchens that are more square, less rectangular than yours--ones that are wide enough for there to be a table in the middle of the kitchen).

The reason that (3) works, when it works, is that the kitchen and dining room are distinct, separate rooms and the tables are quite far apart, so you don't get that "Wait, why do you have two tables" feeling.

When you have seating in both the kitchen and the DR, the distinction between them is that one is formal, the other informal. But you can't get that formal/sit-down dinner vs. casual/grabbing breakfast or a snack distinction when your DR and kitchen are open to each other AND the kitchen seating is the same kind (table + chairs) as the DR seating. If the rooms are open to each other so you can see both at the same time, the seating has to be different types--a table and chairs in the DR, of course, and then either a nook or stools at the counter for the kitchen. Otherwise it just looks weird, like "Wait, why do you have two tables? Was your DR table not big enough or something?" And it looks especially weird when the tables are practically next to each other.

I'm willing to be proven wrong on this, and if someone has a picture of an open kitchen/DR with two tables close to each other that somehow works, that'll be great. But I've never seen such a thing and it's hard to imagine.

To clarify your drawing, it was intended to have no wall on the right AND no upper cabinets along the bottom (the island), right?

I don't disagree with you about the seating. I'm honestly not focused on that point right now. I'm just trying to decide if opening up that wall is a feasible option. Once I know what I'm doing with the wall, then I can focus on the rest of the details.

I honestly think I would enjoy my kitchen more if I had it open this way so that it was easier to access. It would make the hallway to the MBR lighter and brighter too. Just trying to decide if I can make it work or if I'm cutting off my nose to spite my face, so to speak, by taking away a perfectly usable wall in my kitchen.

I"m not sure if I missed this in the details but what is the clearance between the island and perimeter run? Also, I'd consider putting the MW in an upper between the frig and range. Maybe move the range down to where you show the cab next to it. That way you could move the sink next to the DW in the island. I like the idea of separating the range a little more.

remodelfla - there is 42" clearance on both sides of the bar (a little less once the countertops go in.) Do you think that's enough? I rearranged the bar and put the seating around the side of it.

Good idea about moving the MW. I am planning to get a drawer though, but it's over next to the fridge. I think it works better to move the range down a bit.

What do you think about this try (please remember, or feeble attempt with the software. Hopefully will meet with the KD in the next few days.

On a different note - I was just reading a thread about the wood ceramic tiles and noticed that you installed them. Do you still love them? It sounds like a nice option for the kitchen!

Are you thinking in terms of zones, or who does what where? It's a good thing to keep in mind, and I'm asking because the trash/recycling is in a totally random location in this last layout. Trash and recycling need to be located where people make trash and open recyclable things. If your family microwaves packaged food much, and the packaging is recyclable (it is in most places), then you want recycling over near the microwave. And trash needs to be near the prep area (ideally right between the prep area and the cleanup area) for similar reasons: because that's where trash is created.

Also, where are you planning on storing dishes? Dish storage should obviously be very close to the DW, so you're not walking back and forth across the kitchen to put dishes away.

ideagirl2 - I moved the trash based on your earlier comments that it was in the way in the prep area. I guess I'm not following what you're going for...

As for the MW, I hardly ever use it. I don't use anything pre-packaged/pre-prepared. MW is pretty much only used for cooking frozen vegetables from time to time, warming up the occasional leftover and kids popping popcorn.

My plan was to store the dishes in the upper cabinet between the oven and the refrigerator.

All this planning may be mute as I discussed the floorplan idea with my KP and she feels removing the wall would leave me looking at an empty hallway and I wouldn't like it. I can see her point. I guess I'm back to plan A or maybe B...