Not a fibrex hater Todd. I just call out baseless praise of it such as the title of this post, as well as folks that think it will solve their problems. All materials have failures, no doubt. Fibrex just doesn't really do much any better than a great vinyl window, and doesn't offer the richness of a real wood. This doesn't mean that it has no worth or that I'm a hater. I simply believe that it has limited application value, and I frankly believe the same about fiberglass. Note that I said limited, not none.

I do believe and have shown conclusive evidence of the fact that there is an issue with the fibrex windows that have a wood laminate interior, and I further believe that their treatment of this particular homeowner was shameful. I also believe that @Oxford Pete would be well served to consider a high end vinyl window in his new build that will offer superior condensation resistance and overall performance. That said, a fibrex window, assuming that it is NOT chosen with the wood laminate interior (it sounds as though that is not being considered) will perform better at mitigating damage from condensation than a wood interior window of any brand.

Lastly, that is interesting to hear about the piece of fibrex hand rail that you have in a bucket outside. Fibrex decking degradation without cap stock is pretty generally known, it fades, shrinks, warps, and weakens over time due to the exposure to the elements. Odd that your piece presumably has not.

Hater comments are based upon past post. I agree a 100 doesn’t do much beyond a great vinyl window , but it’s appearance does have more organic feel than most vinyl, and of course ther are the hybrids like the A-series,woodwrighs , and 400 series that all incorporate Fibrex and the richness of wood. You’re evidence is far From conclusive IMO, not to say the cap-stock on the renewal is not a week point. The decking you speak of is not Fibrex some of the handrail systems used are such as with Trex. Trex failures are well documented and there are reasons for it.

Todd, how are multiple, documented accounts of the wood laminate degradation/delamination "far from conclusive evidence" of an issue? I've stated that the reason for the failures are educated speculation, but I don't know how much more conclusive one could be of an issue existing than to have photographic evidence of multiple instances of the issue.... I believe that the location of some of the issues as I've pictured are very problematic in terms of writing them off as ordinary surface condensation as well, but we can probably say that aspect is inconclusive. Probably not FAR from conclusive, but inconclusive none the less.

How many of the Renewal or decking? They are clearly different products. I can not determine the cause of the failure from your pictures. I have seen multiple renewals without this type of failure and none with. Typically product failures are based on a percentage of numbers not on one mans personel quest. Perhaps this will reach class action status if it is consistent like with Marvin and Pella?

You are getting desperate in this debate at this point Todd... looking forward to the next one.

I don’t feel desperate,I feel I am winning of course. I’ll take your withdrawal as victory.

RBA is a pretty window and I think that every can like the fact that they are selling a 70% vinyl resin window for $1,500 - $2,000+ per opening. See if you can dig up a picture of that piece Todd.

To the OP, tough to say what is doing there vs. another window. I suspect that the active windows have a weatherstripping interface issue which is allowing them to cool from the bottom and exacerbating the normal thermal weak points of the edge of spacer/frame condensation. I've been asking for a picture of that window from the exterior and the weatherstripping.

The fact that the fixed are not doing it and the active panes are indicates something along those lines. If the OP can't post that information, but has all the other data about the conditions, it is evidently clear what the end game is.

That would be 60%. Did you include there discounts in that pricing? As we know they do it because they can, just like Marvin and Pella. I charge the most I can and I would guess your prices are pretty high for a 100% plastic window.

Talking chemistry now. Hmm...I feel the same way about Todds. Your guess would be incorrect, but its Thursday so you are due for some missteps on a mostly clean week.

I’d say I’m still batting 100%. Maybe Pete will jump on the other Marvin/Fibrex thread or maybe it is Pete?

Meh. Opinions vary buddy. I couldn't like you as much as I do if you were perfect.

My quest for perfection continues.

WoW- here it is, that moment you've been waiting for... the weather seal on the window frame! An approximately 5/16 wide strip of resilient plastic. It certainly seems to make contact along its length. I would venture that since it allows a space below it that is clearly open to the great outdoors (judging from all the debris, dead bugs etc), that lineal is subjected to outdoor conditions on two sides (bottom and outside surfaces) while the other 3 lineals are tucked warmly in the frame, exposing only the outer surface to the cold outdoors. An engineering failure caused by the requirements of the closer system they have designed. I do not believe adding any more stripping would help, in fact it may make it worse by preventing warm, interior air to warm the upper part of the lineal, at least a bit.

If the window is made square and true (which they are) that weatherstripping should be in perfect contact with the lower sash rail. If the window is out of adjustment (hence the reason that the casement hardware has adjustment points), that weatherstripping won't have full contact and will allow outdoor air to whip into that interstitial space.

There is not reason that this sash lineal is any more thermally bridged to the exterior than a fixed window is to the exterior, assuming that it is sealed properly.

Given that these are new construction windows, even if set perfect (unlikely), its entirely possible that the sash is now out of adjustment.

If there are any energy auditors near you, I would suggest a blower door infiltrometer and IR scan of the home. I would be willing to bet that the IR and blower door will highlight a bunch of air infiltration at those sash interfaces.

These windows don't leak air. Further, they all have the identical problem. As I pointed out, the design of these windows allows twice as much surface area exposure of the bottom lineal to the cold air.

”These windows don't leak air.”

Sounds like a great design.

From the perspective of air infiltration, they work great. However from the perspective of thermal bridging of the lower lineal, not so much.

Uhhhhh, take a look at the lower rail of the top sash on any double hung window. Or the center stile of the outer sash on a slider. come on Pete.

"An engineering failure caused by the requirements of the closer system they have designed."

From what I know there are about 3 companies that make the operators and they all work the same way. From crap to the best, they're all the same.

They all work from crap to best and are all the same?

I won't speak for MWM, but I believe what he's saying is that the hardware that all window manufacturers use is basically the same, sourced from one of three hardware manufacturers, and that same hardware is used on all windows from "crap to best" in terms of window quality....

...Essentially saying that it would be inaccurate to say that Marvin designed this hardware, and also that it is a defective design.... and since I'm not putting words in MWM's mouth, if he didn't mean to say that, I do :)

Also, @Oxford Pete, what type of operator are you considering in the Andersen line for your new build? Single hung? Casements? Just curious

That makes sense.

Dont forget that Andersen makes Fibrex windows in double hung with wood interiors such as the Woodwrights , or the Fibrex /fiberglass/ wood interior A-series or the fibrex/ vinyl/wood 400 series.

HomeSealed - We are using single hung or double hung depending on what brand we choose. A major consideration is the price. We are building a 2200 sqft ranch house and trying to keep it under 300K. I would prefer a window without the pocket sash of the 100's, but this house design has a 7' deep porch that runs the length of both the front and back of the house, so all but two windows will be largely sheltered from rain and easily cleaned from the outside so single hung would be fine. I want to look at Kolbe Forgents with their slanted sashs, but I probably won't use them unless they are a quantum leap better than 100s. I am GC-ing our new house. The building materials company I'm using for my house supplies the best lumber in our area and all the good framers and carpenters prefer to work with their wood because it saves them time and aggravation. They are also an Andersen dealer. They have a deal where if you buy your lumber, window and door package from them, you get the use of their very good architect to do all of your design work and produce a final set of prints and to deal with any permitting concerns for $1000 bucks. Just buying prints online for the house is a $1000 and they would have to be modified by somebody, so getting stuck with Andersen looks likely. The 100s are kind of chintzy feeling, but I like the idea of fibrex and the available dark colors inside and out. I am going to install the siding and the flooring to save $$$. That way, I will be able to afford to use Royal Celect siding instead of vinyl. It hate Hardie board because it is so nasty to work with and still needs painting to look good. I know Celect is fussy to install, but I can read and follow directions. Also, Celect comes in some very tasty colors. I was an early adopter of cellular PVC, using Azek when it first came to market about 15 years ago to create window trims, and to completely finish a screen porch including column wraps, knee wall panels and trim for our previous house. I really like working with it. It's easy to cut and machine into whatever you want and it welds beautifully with regular old PVC cement.

The 100 single hungs are what they are. Sounds like you looked at them and operated them. Not the best thermal ratings, the Forgenot is fairly new and feedback is minimal. What are looking to for interior colors?

We like the dark bronze look. As far as quality of the 100s, we'd have to drop a lot more bucks to improve significantly.

@Oxford Pete, the Celect siding is a cool product, as is Azek. Cellular PVC in general is good stuff, I like it for siding, trim, windows, etc. They would be more expensive, but if you would like to use a material that is off the beaten path (Not wood or vinyl), I like it better than fibrex.

As far as that 100 single hung, without regard to the material itself, it leaves a bit to be desired as a window. Performance numbers aren’t great, and the pocket sill is a design that is outdated and problematic. Dirt and debris can slow down drainage through that sill and it can be difficult to clean at best, or cause major damage to your home at worst. The casement isnt bad, but the single hung isn’t recommended by many window guys. As you can see, even Fibrex Todd isn’t high on it.... not trying to beat a dead horse here, but considering the issues that you are having and dissatisfaction with the Marvin windows, I don’t believe that you’ll pleased with these, and they DO have a couple of undesirable design features.

What are the other options that you have to get this supplier deal?

Homesealed, that was exactly what I meant, that the hardware is basically identical.

My Marvin windows are rotting too. 18 years old and had a disgustingly awful time trying to get somewhere with Marvin 6 years ago..I gave up they weren't even interested.

Some is from condensation and some I think the cladding has separated from the wood..black mold further down on flat trim areas not next to glass in many places... from inside out.

Was considering fibrex but maybe better rethink that!! Certainly not the 100 series..I had wondered about the super thin amount of veneer they call wood..so back to the drawing board..I don't t black mold to get down into the std wall below.

Had an Andersen guy come by..great guy but not falling for the sale tactic and their huge commission. The house is too nice for vinyl..and I have installed lots of vinyl.

I'm thinking sliders as all summer long every day..open windows at night close windows in am..gets old quick..add to that closing and opening blinds drapes and shades and I'm already bored to death with this job!! :(

Interesting and funny thread..enjoyed reading it!!

Deborah, unfortunately any window with organic material will be subject to moisture damage. Nearly 20 years out of a wood window of any quality without refinishing at any point (only presuming that to be the case) is not abnormal. They can last longer, just not without some maintenance and attention in most cases.

Given your issues, I'd recommend a window with no organic materials. That could be vinyl (there are a handful of products that have a higher end look and feel than your average vinyl window), or it could mean fiberglass or another composite material that does not contain wood on or in it.

+1 on HomeSealed comments. If a little attention is paid to things that touch water in your house and corrective actions taken early, there would be less complaints about discovering failures.

I have not seen any water damage to Fibrex itself. Andersen uses this material in critical areas such as the window sill, door sills , exterior trim, the exterior of window sashes and frames.

He are examples of what’s happening to my Fibrex windows in Arizona. Our home was completed in late 2017; the first frame cracks appeared in the spring of 2018, roughly a year after they were installed. We are entering our third year of attempting to resolve the problem. A few windows were replaced in spring of 2019 (with new construction windows, requiring stucco demo, and replacement, painting, etc.) but within a year (during the time Andersen was supposed to be addressing the rest of our windows), the new window frames began to crack also...In hindsight, I would not choose any Fibrex framed windows for this climate.

The top photo is a window that was installed in early 2019. The bottom photo shows a small portion of an original window frame with cracks.

spardi Are you saying the Fibrex cracked because of dryness? I live in a very dry climate (in Colorado), and was considering Fibrex (A series) until I saw your comment. Now, I'm thinking I might be better off with Marvin fiberglass. Thank you for sharing your window issues -- very helpful to me. Anyone have an opinion on Marvin fiberglass? Awhile back I had to buy a refrigerator and discovered that the best you can do is to buy the least crappy one. I'm wondering if it is the same with windows? I'm worried that fiberglass windows may become brittle and discolor overtime just like the Fibrex (I know vinyl windows do).

Quality vinyl windows do not become "brittle and discolor overtime" in any climate. Neither will a quality fiberglass window. I would have no reservations about installing any Marvin fiberglass (Ultrex) windows in your climate.

@dottt1, any material is subject to degradation over time in one form or another, although certainly the degree will vary. Your specific conditions (region, climate, facing direction, sizes, options needed) will play a role in choosing an ideal material, although high quality variations of any of them would likely serve you well. A well engineered vinyl, fiberglass, or composite window will do a nice job for you in CO.

Specifically on the Marvin fg products, they are well made and seem to stand the test of time pretty well in my observations. They lag some other products in performance, most notably air leakage, but they are well built. You may have Sunrise available in your area as a high quality vinyl option.

HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC I had not heard about air leakage problems with Marvin! Yikes. My home is situated on a bluff and gets very strong sun on the south side. Lots of hail during early to mid summer along with pronounced temperature variations in winter (can be a blizzard one day, and shorts-wearing weather the next). I've seen quite a few hail damaged vinyl windows here (as well as cracking). Don't want to lose the glass space with vinyl. So the decision is really coming down to fiberglass (Marvin) or Fibrex (Andersen). Neither stands out and says, "Pick me!"

" I had not heard about air leakage problems with Marvin! Yikes"

It's not like you will feel a breeze standing inside your house. The windows are still sealed tight just not as tight as the better vinyl.

+1 to mwm’s comments. Their air leakage rating is not very good compared to the more airtight vinyl and composite offerings, but you won’t have curtains blowing Assuming a good install. I will say that in my experience Marvin buyers are often quite discerning and they do notice slight drafts among other imperfections, so I have seen a higher ratio of complainants in that regard. Living on a bluff I’m sure that you get some high winds, I’d recommend a little bit more weight on air leakage ratings.

As far as glass area, the thought that you will lose that with vinyl isn’t really accurate. The fibrex units in particular aren’t exactly “slim lined”, i believe you’d get more glass area with Sunrise vinyl than Andersen fibrex. In Marvin, the all ultrex Essentials has maximum glass, while the wood ultrex Elevate is a little closer to average in that regard.

Are you considering double hung or casement as your primary operator? That can change this conversation a little bit as well.

HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC What you say about Ultrex Essentials having maximum glass is very helpful. That is important to me. If they offer more glass space than the Andersen fibrex, that would knock the Andersens right out of the running. I'm wanting to have double hung in most places (an awning style over the kitchen sink so there isn't a line down the center). We get very high winds periodically -- so, I'm still worried about Marvin sounding a little air leaky. Do you ask about casements because they might solve the air infiltration issue?

Casements are typically a tighter unit in all manufacturers from an air infiltration performance value.

The Anderson 100s are single hung only, are side loaded and have a pocket sill. Casements can be tighter and often are but not always. Just ask MArvin for there current air infiltration ratings.

@dottt1, that's exactly right. Casements will be a little tighter (generally speaking) and mitigate that issue to some degree.

The Essentials isn't widely considered to be the prettiest window, but it definitely is slim (slimmer than the fibrex) in either configuration.

With your list of priorities the Starmark Evo composite would be a perfect fit (great performance numbers, slim lined, composite construction), but I think South Dakota might be the closest that product gets to you.

The A-series has fiberglass sashes and Fibrex frame, sloped sill and both sashes tilt in. I have seen there air numbers and only heard of the Marvin’s, going off data that is pretty much hearsay the Andersen’s have better air numbers.

HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC The Starmark Evo window being seamless is very beautiful! Never heard of them before your comment. I sent an inquiry to see if they would be available where I live. There didn't seem to be an explanation of their composite material on their website. Is that wood and vinyl like fibrex or glass and vinyl or something else (or is it a secret, haha)?

toddinmn Thanks for the suggestion -- I will try and get those numbers from Marvin. I am not a fan of having screens on the inside of the window (as they are with casements). However, if casements were WAY more energy efficient, I would consider them. Is it possible to seal up a house too much? Also, am wondering if anybody knows if having screens on the outside of windows helps to deter birds from hitting windows (and do grills help with that, too)? Maybe that's a topic for a separate post.

It is possible to seal to much without proper air quality control. I doubt your windows will make all difference, it is has more to do with entire envelope. I think grills and screens on the outside will help with Bird impacts.

@dottt1, they call it APC, its in the family of cellular PVC with some secret sauce mixed in as I understand it. No wood component, but stronger than vinyl, welded unlike fiberglass, and solid lineals without chambers. Great window.

On the air sealing and birds, I'd agree with Todd on all points. If the home was built in the last 25 years, there was a time where they were being sealed up pretty tightly without adequate ventilation causing indoor air quality issues. The remedy however is not to get leaky windows or leave areas unsealed, but to have systems in place for that to be controlled and dialed in to balance air leakage (energy efficiency) with air exchange (air quality). An energy auditor or home performance consultant would be the go to if you ever wanted to explore that.

HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC Starmark Evo sounds like a very good window, but no dealer in Colorado. Really, only the Anderson A's and the Marvin Essentials remain on the list. I'm leaning more towards Marvin. My house will be nice enough when I'm done with updates / upgrades, but it isn't a mansion. I can't see an advantage to Andersen unless the Marvins are terribly leaky. So I've got to get those numbers.

keep in mind you will have additional cost to paint or stain the A-Series. Finding air infiltration numbers might be difficult on those brands. I have only heard about Marvin’s air numbers and anything I can find on Anderson’s is outdated , any data should be no older than 5 years. I wouldn’t rule out a quality vinyl window but I know Colorado doesn’t get the top brands like the Midwest and East Coast.