What are your thoughts on appliances...in particular, which ones (DW, Refrigerator, range, cooktop, wall oven, MW, MW drawer, rangehood, warming drawer, other) and sizes?

Are doors flexible? Could you move a door, like may be the one on the right wall leading to the DR?

BTW...you're probably not receiving emails of follow-up postings, even though you checked the box requesting them. This is b/c you don't have the email option turned on in your profile. See the "Read Me" thread for more information. Scroll down to the post with the subject "Getting Emails Sent To You...3-step Process".

Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens! [Help keep on Page 1]

Some door and window changes immediately present themselves that could improve your envelope, including:

- Moving the DR door "down," which would give you more space in the kitchen and also probably make the DR feel more symmetrical
- Moving the front hallway door to line up with the basement door leaving a longer countertop run; this depends on the extension of the side door a bit
- Closing up the window on the left kitchen wall, which would allow you to put a range there. This window can also be modified to work over a range; we have several examples of that on this forum.
- Changing the back window into two smaller windows flanking a range

I'm not specifically recommending any of these--I just want to point out what some possibilities are, and see if you're open to them. Also, what is the cardinal orientation of your kitchen? Does more light come through the back window or the side window?

Angie, I'm curious as to why your kitchen doesn't seem to get much light, you have 8 linear feet of windows - that's about what my kitchen has, but it is dark because it opens to a 10 ft deep porch. That's a positive in our climate, however, plus our kitchen faces south.

I'm thinking though you are about maxed on window space, unless you close up the ones that don't get much light and increase the window on the side that does get light.

Could you move the dining room doorway without being too disruptive? (Able to salvage historic trim, etc.)

Dear Buehl,

First, thank you for your time and work on the forum. I appreciate it. (You were correct about the lack of emails!)

Appliances should be pretty basic. Looking for fairly small fridge (~18 c.f.), DW, 30" range (probably slide-in, could be freestanding), MW, and rangehood. Would prefer not to use a MW/hood combo, but will if I need to. No desire for separate oven/cooktop (unless it solves a design problem), warming drawer, or anything else at all "exotic." Planning on single-bowl sink, would like a pantry.

The side door actually enters on a lower level, about 3 steps down from kitchen level. Therefore, I cannot really move the hallway door.

I could move the DR door, as several have suggested. I don't think I understand the utility of such a move. There is presently enough room to fit a countertop run on the "top" side. (Note that in my drawing of the whole first floor, the horizontal line near that doorway is part of the dimension, not an actual obstruction. You can see on the kitchen-only drawing that the doorway is 25" from the wall.) What would moving the DR door gain me? I will be happy to move it if it will help.

Similarly, I can certainly brick up the left-side window. However, it seems to me that there is not enough room to fit a range or sink there, at least if I keep counter runs on both sides. Am I wrong? Can you comfortably fit a range in a 4' space?

North is up on this drawing, so not much light comes in the big window. Moreover, there is a "jump porch" (as we call it here in the upper midwest, like a balcony) above that window. The left (west) window is fairly close to my neighbor's house, and so is generally shaded.

Thanks for the help so far!

I would not move the DR door. Keep it where it is, and in that bottom right corner (the one that's 36+" deep and 68+" wide), put the fridge and some storage. Perhaps make that the snack zone, with the fridge on one side and base cabs/upper cabs on the other. With a medium-sized fridge, you should have about 3 feet of counterspace there, give or take a couple inches, because the fridge will probably be about 30" wide. Put your toaster and coffee maker on that counter; maybe also put a microwave there if it works (e.g. if you get a built-in MW that sits 18" above the counter). I would suggest putting the fridge on the left, by the bottom door, and the counter on the right, by the DR door, because then the fridge door wouldn't open into a doorway.

I think this move will give you a lot more flexibility with the rest of your kitchen. You certainly wouldn't want anything but food storage in that bottom right corner, because it's disconnected from the rest of the kitchen by the two doorways. And there's really no good place for a fridge on any of the other walls. Putting it here means you don't have to cram all your appliances together too much.

And the 36.75" depth of that space is perfect for a fridge--it means you don't need to shell out the $$ on a counter-depth, and it gives you two good options for the counter: (1) use counters/base cabs as deep as the fridge (probably about 32") and uppers half that depth, and get a ton of extra storage that way; or (2) use standard-depth counters (25") and people using that area won't be standing right in the DR doorway--traffic flow won't be too impeded.

There are some other considerations too, obviously. The short wall might work for the range, but because of its length and the placement of the window, that will only work if you either (1) brick in the window (which is rarely a good idea for aesthetic or resale purposes, unless you replace it with a window elsewhere on the same wall, which isn't cheap on a brick house) or (2) put the range in front of the window--which will make venting easy, since you already have an opening through which to run it, but may not be legal in your town.

If this is an option you might like, check with your city planning folks to see if it's okay to put a range in front of a window, and also maybe get a quote on moving the window. But DO NOT brick it in, at least not without replacing it with another window. Losing the window on that wall would almost certainly be a decision you'd regret--the more light the better in a kitchen.

Another option, of course, would be to put the sink on the short wall and the range on the long one. However, if you keep the range away from that big window--and especially if you also center the sink on the smaller window--the distance between sink and range will be too large. It will complicate your prep and also almost guarantee that people will carry pans (including hot ones full of boiling pasta water) across the floor instead of following the L. Carrying stuff like that across the floor is just asking for accidents to happen.

Ideally what you want to do is have the sink and range reasonably close to each other--say, 3 feet in a small kitchen, up to 6 feet in a larger one--so that your prep and cleanup is as easy and natural as possible. The easiest way to accomplish that here would be to put the range up in the top right part of the kitchen with 18" of counter to the right, and put the sink on that same wall, centered on the window. Assuming a 27" sink and the 30" range you mentioned, that would give you (going from right to left along that wall):
-18" of counter
-30" of range
-Another 38" of counter
-27" of sink (it would have 18" of window on either side of it)
-Another 31" or so inches of counter up to the point where the counter turns the corner.

But it really might be better to have the sink off-center to get more workspace and keep you farther from the door. (I don't think you can reasonably have less than 18" to the right of the range, and even 18" is very tight, because you don't want to be standing in the DR doorway while you're cooking.) Line the sink up with the left side of that window, scoot the range another 18" to the left so it has 3 feet of counter to the right, and you would have about 4.5 feet of counter between range and sink. That's a very comfortable distance for prep. The other advantage of the off-center sink is that it would make it workable to put the DW on the short wall--put it about 18" down from the corner and it won't block any cabinet doors on the top wall, but when open it will still be exactly the right distance from the sink for loading. If the sink is centered on that big window, there is just enough room to put the DW to the left of the sink, but a DW that close to a corner is a pain to unload and has a tendency to bang against cabinet doors that happen to have been left ajar. (Whatever you do, don't put the DW between the range and the sink--that's a hassle because it means when one person is prepping no one can load or unload the dishes, and it also uses storage space near the range that is probably better used for pans and other range-related stuff.)

If the off-center sink is an idea that interests you but you're concerned about what off-center sinks look like, look into sinks that are asymmetrical to start with. For instance, the kind with two bowls of unequal size or the kind with a drainboard on one side--a drainboard on the left would put the sink basin a little closer to the range and also give you a spot for drying hand-washed dishes that won't be in your way when you're prepping. Putting an asymmetrical sink in an asymmetrical position makes it look more designed and intentional than if you put a symmetrical sink in an asymmetrical position.

Dear Idea Girl2,

Thank you very much for the EXTENSIVE feedback. They don't call you Idea Girl for nothing! Here is a sketch that (I think) incorporates your ideas):

I agree with you that the area in the lower right should be dedicated to the fridge and food storage. I am perhaps thinking of a pantry next to the fridge instead of a base/countertop/wall cab, but your idea would work, too. (I really want a pantry!) I didn't realize the DW can be so far from the sink, but Uncle Google tells me that it can be!

This layout is a huge improvement over what I have, but I am still playing with the notion of getting the range out of the side-door-to-DR traffic flow. The range seems tight if I put it where that end wall is, though....

Thanks again for the help so far!

1. Try to put in a 36 inch super-susan in the corner. The doors on the 33 inch corner cabs are quite a bit narrower and this hurts the usefulness of the storage space.

I switched from a blind corner to a susan -- filling round shelves is a bit more awkward than filling rectangular ones, but overall the susan is definitely easier to access.

2. Can you consider a side-by-side fridge, so the door doesn't stick out as far?

You're welcome! Can't wait to see the finished photos.

I agree with Janet's suggestion of a side-by-side. Or of course a French door--either way the door sticks out only half as far, which is very convenient in a kitchen this size. Or any kitchen where the fridge opens into a traffic zone, really. French door counter depths are quite expensive, but regular French doors can be found at much more reasonable prices.

I'm racking my brain but the only way I can see for you to get the range out of the traffic area would put it in front of (or overlapping) one of the windows. That brings us back to your options: either put it in front of a window (if local code allows), or put it where it needs to be and move the window. It costs nothing to get an estimate, so you could get an estimate on moving the window (exterior work + interior work + the new window itself) just so you could know if it's an option at all.

If you wanted you could also move the DR door down a bit, but then it would be blocked every time you used the snack area or pantry (whatever that ends up being). Basically the dining room door creates a traffic pattern that's automatically going to interfere with something (unless you want to shell out the $$ to reorient your powder room, but that is a major project unless you keep the powder room quite close to where it is now, i.e. quite close to the toilet stack it's using... and even then, it would just create new kitchen design problems to solve... so forget I even mentioned that).

So the question is just, what's the least annoying place for the DR door? If you can put the range in front of one of those windows, it becomes a non-issue. Otherwise it's just going to be a kitchen quirk you learn to live with. I think the layout you posted is reasonable and the range is far enough from the door that the traffic flow won't feel weird. I mean it won't feel like you have to make a left turn as soon as you walk into the kitchen--it will feel like a more natural curve to the left.

I like this project because it's actually bigger than my current kitchen (under 9x12) which ended up being a very functional kitchen that I love. These are from IKEA home planner which is free, and the product is DIY friendly, but is definitely a limited product for a number of reasons.

I like the stove near the serving area so I can take out hot dishes and serve. Others would disagree on the range location because it's in a passage way, but this layout avoids any door location changes, and keeps two windows in the kitchen, which is really nice to begin with in a small space.

What do you think of these? The microwave can go opposite the sink under the glass wall uppers.

floor plan

high view from over DR door

Ditto what Janet said about susans vs blind corners and about getting a different refrigerator...although I recommend a french door over a SxS as I've both and really don't like SxS (different topic).

In addition, placing the DW right against a counter run will make it impossible to access any of the cabinets on the adjacent "leg" without closing the DW first. I would not "turn the corner" there...it makes for a very cramped workspace with very little return. Ending in the corner gives you better storage as well as a more spacious work area, especially with 3 adults prepping & cooking at the same time!

I have been working on three layouts for you. One is similar to what you posted, but with a few changes to give you more useful prep room and reduce possible congestion. It keeps the windows as-is. The biggest con to this layout, though, is that the range and Cooking Zone are in the middle of the major thoroughfare through the kitchen...something that is not recommended. It does offer prep space for three, but only one person has easy access to the sink + a large workspace. (The secondary Prep Zone over the DW is not that big.)

The last two are very much alike, the difference is MW location. Other than that, they move the range to the left wall (eliminate that window) and increase the window on the top wall to 90" (it could be wider, but you sacrifice upper cabinet space). Moving the range allows it to be protected from traffic...a big plus here! You can now access the sink from two Prep Zones...both with plenty of prep space. (The other two zones can be used for "dry prep".)

Note that the DW is to the right of the sink but not right in the DR doorway. This (1) gives you two separate Prep Zones that can access the sink, (2) keeps the dirty dish mess out of sight from the front hallway (if you use the counter over the DW for dirty dishes; a deep sink will hide dirty dishes in the sink), (3) provides work space on the right side for prepping, and (4) the DW does not block the DR doorway.

All three show the DR doorway enlarged to 42" and moved "down" to provide better placement of cabinets & counters so they don't block doorways (or come right up against the door trim) as well as to be more aesthetically pleasing overall. [This change/move does not affect the built-in cabinet. I really like that type of built-in as well and would not want to eliminate it!]

Here are the layouts. At the end, I also show zone maps for all three.

Layout #1, similar to the last one you posted with the MW in the left corner either hanging from an upper cabinet or sitting in the corner.

.

Layout #2 - switch range & sink wall, increase top window, eliminate left window, MW in corner/hanging:

.

Layout #3 - same as #2 except a couple of possible locations for a MW drawer or an under counter MW alcove. (I would prefer the drawer. If not the drawer, then on or above the counter, but YMMV.) [My favorite, either MW drawer location, probably #1 if I had to choose.]

.

Zone Maps...

.

.

Janet, IdeaGirl2, DetroitBurb, and Buehl,
Thank you! You are so generous with your time and thoughts. I am so excited because (1) anything and everything you suggested is so much better than my current layout, and (2) your layout drawings make me see the possibilities of this space. I can almost imagine cooking there!

I like the idea of the french door fridge. I had been perfectly happy with my "normal" fridge, but I like the idea of not blocking the aisle.

It is a tough decision whether to go for the better (IMHO) traffic pattern of having the range to the left (like Buehl's arrangements nos. 2 and 3) or to keep the side window like Buehl's #1 or what Idea Girl and detroit_burb suggested. I thought I would have no good choices, now I have too many!

I was racking my brains on how to squeeze the range on the left, yet keep the window. I came up with this corner-range design, which I remembered seeing in a magazine. I went down to a single-bowl sink (27" cab, sink same size as my sister's, which I love.) The 40" run at the front of the range allows us both to access the range. I am worried, of course, whether the range will be too close to the windows. What do you think?

(I didn't have time to put in the French-door fridge yet.)

Detroit_burb, I love getting the 3D look. I downloaded Google Sketchup and am starting to get the hang of it. Maybe I can manage something from that or look into the Ikea software.

Thank you all so much!
A_D

A corner range can work well in some layouts but wastes a tremendous amount of space. I think it's like 48" or so along each wall. BUT the real issue with the layout you posted--you can't actually open the oven and put anything in it! That jog in the bottom left leaves you no room at all.

You can have a window in your range backsplash, or above it, if you really want one.

Here is a link that might be useful: Check out this thread

Realize that a 30" range will take approximately 48" of base cabinet space on each wall.

Also, with that extra leg on the bottom wall, you may have a problem opening the oven with the corner range. Even if you can squeeze the door open, everyone will have to vacate that entire end of the kitchen when the oven is in use. If you eliminated that small run on the bottom wall, it would eliminate these latter two issues.

You also have very little usable prep space b/w the range and sink. Most of the space is either on the other side of the sink (and in the Cleanup Zone as well as far from the Cooking Zone) or the other side of the range (far from the sink). In both cases, the corner range will also limit how many people can work on that end of the kitchen...especially with that cabinet/counter run on the bottom wall.

Personally, I like the look of corner ranges & cooktops, but they are space hogs! I usually don't recommend them unless the kitchen is large enough to afford to lose the space (cabinet/counter/floor) and the corner range "works" with the rest of the space...i.e., not causing workflow or workspace issues.

If you really want a corner range then I recommend two things to make it work:

(1) Eliminate the bottom cabinet run
(2) Move the DW & sink to the right by at least 24" to allow someone to work in the primary (and most useful) Prep Zone b/w the range and sink.

Something like this:

Is your sister's sink base 27" or the interior of the sink 27"? They're two different measurements. I'm asking b/c with a 27" sink base, you will only be able to fit a sink up to about 25" or, possibly, 26" wide. With a 27" interior width sink, you will need a 29" or so wide cabinet, minimum.

Refrigerator/Pantry configuration...To improve workflow and accessibility of the refrigerator from the Prep & Cooking Zones, I recommend the refrigerator be as shown above and the pantry against the wall. This will also keep the door of the refrigerator out of the DR doorway OR require you to put filler b/w the wall and refrigerator to allow the doors to fully open (if you don't move/enlarge the DR doorway).

Just my 2cs. I cooked in a traffic pattern for 5 years and I am avoiding it at the expense of the perfect layout this time around. Of course I was also doing it with young children darting around but bodies are bodies! Just wanted to let you see that you can keep the light and tuck your stove away. My vote is #3. Good luck.

Here is a link that might be useful: window above range

Yes, definitely check out that link CluelessinColorado posted. It has tons of pictures of ranges in front of windows--it looks really nice, is pleasant when you're cooking (unless your window looks out on a junk yard or prison, haha), and god knows a solid pane of glass is a lot easier to clean than most backsplashes. If your local codes will allow it--and keep in mind they definitely will NOT allow you to have curtains on that window, though metal blinds are probably okay--then that would give you the most flexibility and ultimately the best kitchen design as far as light, traffic pattern and work zones are concerned.

So, you could have the range on one window and the sink on the other. With both of them centered, there will be a pleasing symmetry. Assuming a normal to medium range size (i.e. 36" or less), putting the range on the smaller window would probably be easier in terms of getting a hood that looks good over the window. You could put a 30" to 36" hood on the small window--either size would work over a 30" range. There may well be hoods that would look great on your large window, though--hard to know since I can't see your kitchen--but I think you would find a sink works better on that large window, because people need to access the sink more often than the range and it's common for two people to need to access it at the same time, whereas there's almost never more than one person at a range. So having the sink more in the middle of the kitchen, easily accessible from both sides, will be nice.

You could then put the DW to the right of the sink and the large window, with dishes stored in upper cabs to the right of the window. For the most visually pleasing appearance, make sure the DW doesn't overlap the right edge of the window. Assuming you're using a 24" DW, line it up so that if you drew a straight line down the right side of the window, the left side of the DW would be exactly on that line. This will give you some space between the sink and the DW--the exact size of it will depend, of course, on the size of your sink; if you have a 30" sink centered on the 66" window, there will be 18" between it and the DW. You could use that for a trash/recycling pullout, if such a pullout won't fit directly under your sink.

Then have your MW, toaster, coffee maker etc. snack area to the right of the DW (i.e. in the top right corner of the kitchen), across from the fridge/pantry area. This layout will keep the range totally out of the traffic paths, keep everyone out of the cook's way, leave the sink easily accessible, separate the cooking/prep zone from the cleanup zone, AND put the snack area right next to the dining room and near the fridge, which is super convenient.

Dear generous GWers,

I have been off learning how to work with Google Sketchup. Detroit_Burb convinced me how important that would be, and it is pretty easy because you can download most of the components you need.

I am working through the most promising designs. (But they are all pretty promising!) Here are two views of what emerged from Idea_Girl and Detroit Burb (although any mistakes or omissions are purely mine).

I know that the fridge is still "wrong," but I am not going to worry about that right now. I am sure to get the French fridge as suggested! Also, I now see that the corner wall cabinet near the DW is no good -- will change in later version.

A_D

Wow! I have to learn sketchup, I downloaded it, but have to play a bit until I figure it out. Looks like you're cooking 5 fried eggs in that skillet :) yummy (I love breakfast).

Totally agree with everyone else on the french door fridge, esp in a small kitchen. If reno takes you down to the studs, you can also get the size you need with a standard depth fridge that is 30" (i.e. http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/LFC20760.html) and have your builder make a bump out behind the fridge to accomodate the extra depth, it will look counter depth from the front. can save some $$ too. There is a disadvantage to standard depth in that it is hard to dig out stuff in the back, but this gives you SIX more precious inches to work with.

If you get a sink with the drain hole in the back, and have a skilled plumber neatly put the plumbing against the wall, and buy a smaller/compact sized disposer (if you want one) you will definitely have enough room for a garbage pullout under the sink. I have a D shaped Franke sink (http://www.frankeksd.com/productdetail.php?prodid=126&node=10&group=53&lvl=3) in a 24" base with an old badger 5 and keep a full sized garbage under it. Can get aftermarket garbage pullout for this. You don't need to waste another base cabinet for garbage-unless you want it.

The DW next to a corner base will work fine using a 48x24" type corner base, you just need about 2" filler next to it to clear the handle on the cabinet next to it. I have this, the only issue I have is that the handle from the corner cab hits the DW and dings the stainless DW panel.

the other kind of corner i have is the 37x37 base with the two hinged 12" doors and lazy suzan in it. I keep most pots and pans in the lazy suzans, and I raised the lower level of the lazy suzans and put flatter baking items on the floors of these cabinets making them very functional. My kitchen has three corner cabinets, and I would not necessarily choose a layout just to avoid corner bases. look at www.hafele.com/us/products/kitchen-cabinet-hardware-accessories.asp and http://www.blum.com/us/en/02/60/20/index.php for ideas of what you can do inside the cabinet. The Blum site has great ideas, i have loved Blum for many years, the stuff is so incredibly awesomely German. Europeans generally live in smaller spaces and this stuff was designed for that. What you can't see is incredibly important.

Another issue in these smaller kitchens. When you try to build up and maximize the corners, the doors will hit eachother, and if you choose pointy hardware/handles, it will ding your doors. I love this look (kerfdesign.com), with no hardware, but it is very taste specific. I have also seen more traditional door fronts with a routed out handle on top (www.scherrs.com/doors/options.htm) - looks like no hardware when you look at the door front. My best friend has an authentic MCM home with custom original kitchen, walnut faced slab doors with routed handles-no visible hardware-beauty meets function. Either of these would solve the problem I've had, and just think--no $$'s for hardware, one less choice to agonize over (and if you're on here, you'll be agonizing over choices).

Regarding the corner uppers like the ones you sketchedup, I have found that stuff gets lost in the edges, but they are helpful for large platters, and I can fit a full set of dishes for 8 on the first shelf of one - right over the dishwasher, nice and easy that all the dishes fit on one shelf with no steps from dishwasher. The upper lazy suzan was not right size for dishes. My mom has a different kind of corner that is an L shape and is 12" deep with a double door hinged together that opens as one door - much easier to see stuff, and feels less boxed in when you are working in it, and I like the look of it better.

About the appliance garage... this screws up a nice counter run, the ones that lay flat on the wall may be better, may be better to have the garage under the MW and decide exactly what you want to put in it and make sure it really fits - I looked at some of these, they were not big enough for what I use at least once a week.

I ramble...

Will keep watching as your project develops, I am happy for you - it's lots of fun!

Something that jumped out at me was the great counter space your latest rendition has. It seems that although you might have lots of space however, it's maybe not enough really usable prep space - that perhaps you would utilize that area between the range and sink for everything.

Okay, got another one done. Below are three views of Buehl's No. 1 layout. The exact choice of cabs (i.e., drawers vs. cabinets) should not be taken seriously at this point.

This reminds me to answer an earlier question. My sister's sink is only 22" interior (it's a Franke PRX11021, supposed to fit in a 24" cab). In a bizarre coincidence, that is the VERY SINK that Detroit_burb just posted she has.

Detroit_Burb, that is a lot of good information there. I have indeed been planning to try to capture some of the stud wall space for the fridge. Also, I may wind up with custom cabinets (very possibly Scherr's, in fact), so I could alternately bring those cabs out a bit (since there is only the fridge and pantry in that area).

Regarding the upper corner cab: I like the idea of the non-angled corner. I think that is what Buehl is showing in her designs.

Regarding the trash: good info on conserving space under the sink base. My intention is to keep garbage under the sink, and to have an 18" cab somewhere dedicated to recycling. In my community, we only have two bins: paper and plastic/glass. I intend to use two shelf pullouts in an 18" cab to accommodate those two items.

Regarding the corner base storage: Yes, I covet the Hafele magic corner. Also, I managed to pick up a pair of Rev-A-Shelf wooden half-Ds a for blind corner for essentially free. But I will let the layout dictate whether it should be blind corner vs. the super susan that many have suggested would be better.

Clueless (who is clearly NOT), you have a great point there: In the design above, the only time you would go over to the left of the sink to prep is if you were "banished" from the main area. Buehl's #1 below looks better in that regard.

Thanks!
A_D

I like the last ones, this direction.... when you had the short return at the end of the room, in the previous iteration, it just felt too cramped down there. Also, changing those angled corner uppers out for plain 90-degree corners will open up the feeling of the small space, too. You do lose a bit of storage, but IMHO for aesthetic reasons and making a small kitchen feel airier, it's definitely worth it.

Wow, Google sketchup is amazing!
Have you played with a design involving the range on a window yet? Can't wait to see that.

Idea girl:
Me too! I am working on that one, having some difficulties. But this is the layout (Buehl #2/3) I am starting to put my money on! I am thinking a glass-block window behind the range may be the ticket.
A_D

Okay, here is Buehl's Number 2 layout. I do like it quite a bit. Another advantage of not having that return run of cabinets is that it gives me a bit of a blank wall -- a spot to put the phone and a thermostat for the radiant floor heater.

As you can see, I am also playing with the idea of glass-front wall cabs to keep things a bit lighter. I am thinking of using water glass to hide the contents a bit. I also managed to fix the fridge.

Idea Girl, you are right, Google Sketchup is amazing. The best part about it is the fact that I didn't really have to draw any of that, just download pre-drawn components. It is really helping this process along (although not as much as all of you are!) :-)
Gratefully,
A_D

Wow! Love that layout. When chosing your range, read the instalation manuals online. This will take lots of time, but is so worth it. Some ranges have 0" clearance, so you can butt the range up to your corner cabinet and put the filler to the left of your drawer bank so if the wall is not perfectly perpendicular to the drawer bank you can still open drawers fully.

Also, can use a 36" sink base, and use half the base for garbage, and half for recycling, instead of the dedicated 18" recycle base. This will give you more space for a wider drawer bank between the sink and the corner cabinet. looks like you have from right to left:
24" sink base
18" recycling base
24" drawer bank
corner cab.

Can do:
36" sink base - carefully planned out underneath with garbage and recycling
with something like this http://www.frankeconsumerproducts.com/productdetail.php?prodid=71&node=201&group=53&lvl=3
or Whitehaus WH3618
30" drawer base

will save space cuz each extra box/cabinet has some loss in the side panels, and you'll get a more generous sink. A 24" next to a 12" does not have as much storage as one 36".

Consider sight lines... it looks like your kitchen sink is the first thing someone will see from the front door - you can do something really interesting with this cabinet, another wood type on the inset if that's interesting to you, or, lots of people here have interesting "farmhouse style" sinks. I have seen customized clay sinks with hand painted front that is baked in.

That layout is awesome. I love it. Seriously the only change I can possibly suggest (apart from little cabinet details--you will be futzing with which sizes go where until the last minute) is that unless you typically use the microwave WHILE you're cooking at the range--like to defrost stuff you're about to cook or whatever--don't put the MW there. If your family uses the MW mainly to heat snacks and leftovers, then instead of having it clutter up your main workspace (the area between sink and range), put the MW over on the stretch of counter opposite the fridge and pantry. That can be where the MW and toaster live. It's definitely going to be where people make snacks, since it's the counter closest to the fridge AND all the dishes will be stored there (since the DW is there).

So either leave the main workspace totally open, or only put stuff there that you actually use when cooking/prepping (KitchenAid mixer, food processor, knife block, cutting board, that sort of thing). That which you do not use when cooking is "clutter" if it's in your main workspace. That which you DO use while cooking... is a tool! :-)

I love that Sketchup lets you put people in to see how big it's going to feel! That's really cool.

Detroit_Burb: Hmmm, methinks you are correct. If I combine the recycling and sink cabs, and replace with a larger sink cab, I get two good results. The new sink cab can line up with the doorway AND it can put the sink more under the window. I had already mentally designed how I wanted the recycling pullout to look (basically, a cab with a roll-out tray on bottom for a bin, and a deeper roll-out tray on top for newspaper). Now I will try to think of a good arrangement for those (plus garbage and cleaning supplies) in a 36" sink base....

IdeaGirl: Oh, jeez, now that you point this out, it looks obvious. You are right! I have the microwave and the cutting board/knives reversed in my picture! Good thing they can be easily moved, both in sketchup and in life! By the way, you define "clutter": Oh, have you SEEN my present kitchen? ;-)

I am almost done with Sketchup versions of both "my" corner range (already shown in 2D) and Buehl's #4, which is a more "open" version of mine. Will post later. I still like the corner range idea, but Buehl's #2 seems superior to me

All of these layouts are so much better than my initial ideas that it is almost painful!
Getting excited!
A_D

By the way, you define "clutter": Oh, have you SEEN my present kitchen? ;-)

Hahaha. My kitchen doesn't conform to these clutter rules either, but that's because my current kitchen, despite being 10.5 x 17 feet, has less storage space than you would find in the typical Westfalia van (see link).

Your new layout with the range on a glass-block window is, I think, definitely superior to the Buehl #1 that you modeled right above it. Why? Because the range and sink are closer together and positioned in such a way that you have three distinct zones--prep/cooking, cleanup, and snack prep--which would be impossible in Buehl #1; the zones overlap in that plan, which makes things a bit chaotic, especially in a small kitchen. Also, with this layout you have the added BIG benefit of not having the range right next to the DR door.

Here is a link that might be useful: Westie van kitchen

Okay, here are views of "my" corner-range layout. I made them with the oven door open to get a sense of how tight it was. As you can see, it *is* pretty tight, but I am able to get someone standing there, even on the tight side. I am not thrilled with this, but I think it could work.

I also have views of Buehl's #4, which is like mine but it gets rid of the small counter run and it moves the sink. It is indeed better for working near the range (to no one's surprise). I'll calculate carefully, but I don't think I can handle the loss of storage space of *both* the space-hog corner range *and* getting rid of the small counter run.

In any event, I think now I have *two* layouts that have the range out of the way and that I could live with. I must give major props not only to Buehl, IdeaGirl and DetroitBurb, but also to Marcolo and CluelessinColorado, whose contributions were invaluable in suggesting that I put the range on the window but keep the window!

What does anyone think?

Now I am off to perform tweaks and gussying to Buehl #2, as per earlier suggestions.

Thanks,
A_D

I think you are having WAY too much fun ;-)!

BTW, your models are much more hip than mine. For some reason I ended up with a particularly buxom Valkyrie and an extremely bland three piece suit.

BTW, your models are much more hip than mine. For some reason I ended up with a particularly buxom Valkyrie and an extremely bland three piece suit.

Clueless: I agree, I am getting a little carried away! But this is a lot of fun, and you all have helped me make so much progress!

If you want my model, search on "woman low poly." Not sure about those stilletos in the kitchen, though!
A_D

As you can see, it *is* pretty tight, but I am able to get someone standing there, even on the tight side. I am not thrilled with this, but I think it could work.

Absolutely! As long as you download someone from Sketchup to work in your actual kitchen, since irritating live humans actually need space behind them to squat down.