nyrgirl35:

Have you paid these folks any money yet? If not, I'd say you're getting just what you've paid for.

Only $150 for them to come measure

nygirl35:

They're not convinced you're a serious buyer or a good fit for them. They're firing you. You can try to change their minds, or you can admit that they've assessed a lot more potential clients than you've assessed potential contractors.

Don't feel guilty about it. It's not you, it's us. You've got an early case of TKO (totally kitchen obsessed). Keep obsessing, the end result will be better.
Did you get any other quotes? As long as you compare apples to apples, you'll have more knowledge in regard to knowing if the price is fair.

Wood hoods are 3-6K easily. Glass doors are triple to quadruple wood doors. So yes, the quote sounds accurate. As to their response time, you are down on the totem pole because you are obviously a shopper and not likely to be a buyer. If you were serious about buying, you'd have given them a retainer and a firm budget along with your must haves and your wish list. Then they'd get you as much of that wish list as your budget would allow, and in a timely manner.

Your project ranks below projects that are being installed currently, and those who are being ordered, and those who paid the retainer and are in the final stages of design, and those who paid the retainer and are in design development. You're asking for a helluva lot of work here without making any committments. Most places will only do one revision to a basic design before getting that retainer. And you've asked for several. Commit, or go somewhere else.

Agree with romy. And if they can't be bothered now, maybe not a good fit. They probably won't want to be bothered later either. You do not want to hire people who are "picky" with or about their clients. It is a long road. Better to find someone who likes their job and working with people and all that entails.

I would think It would have been efficient for them to have given you the general pricing upgrades just as Hollysprings did in 5 minutes so you could get a feel for costs in this early stage. How else can you know what you can afford without asking. Who wants to be sucked in by sales people at the outset when they don't even know anything about what they're buying yet.

If they are going through re-designs each time you Inquire or play with something, then that's their choice.

They have never asked me for a retainer fee. They asked if I wanted their contractor to come out and measure for the $150 and I said yes, I had let them know I had my own contractor. After their contractor had left I called them to ask them to give me a price for the contracting job also, because I liked how he had explained everything to me. So far 3 weeks and still nothing.
Also they take forever to give me prices on the cabinets if they would have adjusted the quote the 1st time I made changes in a timely manner (over a week waiting, then I started thinking of other things to change lol) I would have been able to judge better what else I could do, and like I said it's basically can you change this cabinet to drawers and there are too many similar cabinets in a row I need to break them up!
I hate to be that "annoying person" so I wait and wait...after the original quote I made minor changes 2 more times. I really don't think that's anything crazy.

Romy718 As far as other quotes the $14000 was about $2000 less. So I really thought I was going to go with them, I've heard good things about Jim Bishop also. I never expected it to jump up $6000.

Hollysprings from what I've been able to find Jim Bishop, their prices don't jump that high for the extras ( it's one of their selling points)

Trebruchet maybe they are trying to fire me!

/snookums2 I had said to them I'm sorry it's just a lot of money and I wanna make sure I'm not missing anything, I offered to bring them coffee last time I went, because they are making me feel like I am being annoying geez. I could see if I kept changing the layout but it is really simple switches. And every time I have went there I'm the only client in there I don't get it!

They will be a pain to work with. From your posts, it sounds like they will be pushing you around, easily. Doesn't anyone else sell this brand?

Besides, who is impressed with a string of 24's as you say. Be TKO and get the kitchen you want, not the one someone is trying to sell you.

Sounds like their communication skills are poor too. Much needed during this! Read, absorb as much as you can and shop around!

I just started looking around for other people that sell this brand. As the saying goes, don't mistake my kindness for weakness, that's me :)

If you're not happy with this part of the process then I would look for another cabinet makers. Like others have voiced, if you're unhappy with the timing now, imagine if this is how it's going to be throughout your project.

I've purchased cabinets for my kitchens from local cabinet makers and have always felt that the pricing was appropriate and very much in line with some lines of custom/semi custom cabinets. The customer service is generally much better. Might not be a bad idea to explore some of the local people.

Good luck!

" You do not want to hire people who are "picky" with or about their clients."

Hmmm…let's put the shoe on the other proverbial foot shall we? Here we have a customer giving a potential customer advice. Let's have a contractor giving another contractor some advice:

"You don't want to contract with customers who are "picky" with or about their contractors."

Seems fair to me.

I agree with Trebuchet. When a contractor doesn't want a job, they do exactly as this company is. They may feel you aren't worth the time. Time is money. Another thing a contractor will do is inflate the price. They want to cover themselves for the time they think you will cost them. This is how contractors have always worked. It is time for you to find someone else to do your cabinets.

nygirl35- my kitchen is not quite done but mostly there. i was never asked for a retainer at any kitchen place so i don't think that is done everywhere. also if you are in ny, you will pay sales tax on your cabs unless the cab place installs them. i had an contractor but he stopped emailing me back so i had the kitchen place install and while they were higher, because i wasn't paying sales tax, it was a wash in the end. it was nice having 1 person order and install the cabs plus coordinate the plumbing. the KD i went with was one of 2 that were very responsive and helpful. i asked a million question and was on a small budget. i am so glad i went with someone that gets back to me immediately rather than waiting weeks for an answer to a question or concern. if they can't get back to you now before the sale, don't expect it to get better after they have your order.

I agree if I was being a pain in a** but like I said literally said can I change a cabinet to drawers and because she gave me 3 24" cabinets in a row I said I need to change it it doesn't look right. If that's "too much work" to invest in a client that already gave you $150 , that's insane!!
Even from the 1st time I saw them they were suppose to call me with a price and nothing I waited maybe 2 weeks , then I called left a message and nothing. Then I emailed them and they appoligized saying that they were busy because of Easter whatever that means and that's when they gave me the $14,000 quote. Even the day the contractor was suppose to come out to me he didn't show and I called to check if he was still coming and I left a message and nothing I let that slide too. They are taking advantage of me by thinking ahh she won't saying anything.
Who knows to each his own, but regardless of why they do have poor communication skills. I choose to ignore the first few times because I was happy with the price and brand of cabinets but I guess I learned my lesson.

" You do not want to hire people who are "picky" with or about their clients."

Hmmm…let's put the shoe on the other proverbial foot shall we? ...

"You don't want to contract with customers who are "picky" with or about their contractors."

Seems fair to me."

She isn't being picky at all and is just trying to cabinet shop.

TB, you frequently comment on customers being "qualified" and "fired", as you did upthread. That is why I am saying it works both ways!

So what is your point with those statements?

And what is this supposed to mean:

"You can try to change their minds"

This post was edited by snookums2 on Mon, May 12, 14 at 13:22

My goal is to respond to customer phone messages that same day, and to have any requested changes done in 24 hours. Does that sometimes not happen? Sure. But if I'm very busy with a complicated whole house project for another customer, I will explain that up front, and give them an expected time frame. I also explain that current customers always come before potential customers, and when the person in front of me becomes my customer, they can expect similar focus on their project ahead of other walk ins.

I also only do an initial design or maybe two for a high/low alternate if I have a customer whose budget doesn't seem to match their wish list. For customers who are less constrained by their architecture and are looking to make wholesale changes to the space, I'll sometimes do several very very rough layouts with the major appliances in place to show the possibilities for the space.

Then, after those initial designs, and an in depth meeting to discuss the project's parameters, the ball is in the customer's court. They can pay a 25% retainer of the design as shown so far, and we can proceed with further development of the ideas. Or, they can go home and recover from sticker shock, and go shop elsewhere, or come back a couple of months later after they've saved more money. I will occasionally do a couple of very simple alterations and then get back to the customer if the customer is on the fence, but no wholesale re-designs without the retainer.

If they pay the retainer, then we work together to make sure that the project gets them as much of their wish list as they can afford. Sometimes that means dropping back into a less expensive cabinet, and sometimes that means staying in the better constructed line and paring down some of the details that aren't as important to them as they thought. It's a collaborative effort, after all.

If we do all of that work, and the customer decides to not proceed with the project, then we keep some of the deposit, and refund the rest to the customer. It all depends on how many hours I have into it. My design service is only "free" with the purchase of the cabinets. Otherwise, my time does have to be paid for in some fashion. Some companies prefer to overcharge some people so that others can take advantage of their "free" service.

We prefer to not overcharge anyone, and to have the customer that uses my time to pay the fee one for one. So, although you haven't encountered firms that ask for retainers, most do, and for a very good reason. :-) It keeps the overall costs down for everyone to do that. And it keeps the designer's time spent more productively.

And not one single drawing or elevation leaves here without the deposit being paid. I don't do free design work for other companies to just copy and give you a price. Which brings up another point. Very rarely does the serial price shopper get a true apples to apples price comparison. Most companies will do a quick takeoff from the cabinet list without even adding the correct finishing details like finished sides and enough fillers and toekick. That makes their quotes look really competitive, but it's deceiving. Those finishing details usually add at least 20% to a quote, sometimes a lot more depending on their level. What a serial price shopper really misses out on is the interaction that allows that meeting of the minds that creates the best possible outcome. You can't quantify that if you only are looking for best price. And it's why I stress time and time again that white shaker cabinets are a dime a dozen, but a KD who you can work with is far more important than the cheapest line you can find.

"And not one single drawing or elevation leaves here without the deposit being paid. I don't do free design work for other companies to just copy and give you a price."

lwo: If I wasn't already married for over 30 years, I'd propose to you. My kinda gal.

"And what is this supposed to mean:

"You can try to change their minds"

snookums2:

It means you can go back in there and tell them that you're going to be buying a $xx,xxxx.00 kitchen now and you've got the money. You can tell them you've done your research and it's between them and XYZ Company and no one else. Offer to plunk down a serious deposit in a manner that lwo just described. That'll get their attention, I promise, because you've separated yourself from the tire-kickers cluttering up their showroom.

I think this company may have all the work they want right now, or they for some reason or another don't want you as a customer. I am not picking on you. I think if you have to beg them to get an estimate, you don't want to use them. If you use them and run into these problems with them getting back to you and not taking your project seriously, you will just be mad at yourself.
Have you spoken with the owner of the company? Can you send him an email. Sometimes in a small business the owners have no idea if their employees are getting estimates done in a timely manner.

TB, the difference between your scenario and LWO's is that you want things delivered to you on a silver platter without investing, selling or dealing with customers, while LWO is actually working for it and earning the job.

Serious question- What if a customer already has their design and they just need to know

"how much for 3- 30" 3 drawer bases, 1 double wall oven cabinet, one 42 inch sink base and 5- 24" uppers with the necessary fillers and end panels for this space and what would be the quote difference if I went with cabinets instead of drawers and glass fronted instead of wood on the uppers"

Would you still not give them a quote without a retainer?

Nyrgirl35, I wouldn't take the behavior of the sales people personally. When we started our reno, I made inquiries with 5 different companies. Price was a concern but I wasn't necessarily shopping for the best price. I was looking for cabinets I liked, a KD that I felt was responsive to my needs & a company that was reputable and dependable. I ended up getting actual pricing from 3 companies. The other two just dropped the ball with one calling about 2 months after our meeting with a proposal. My reno had a few mishaps but the KD & GC always came through & resolved things to our satisfaction.
This company your dealing with....big red flags, IMO.
As LWO said, a KD you can work with & have confidence in is what you should be looking for, not one that makes you feel that are a pest.

On this so-called serial shopping, you can't just walk into a showroom and buy a kitchen. You have to get your feet wet somewhere first. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not purchasing from the first store you go to. While I understand the need to protect oneself from free design service shoppers, expecting people to not shop around to see how it all works and what/who is available is a ridiculous concept.

A lot of people are quite, if not as much interested in the quality of the design services, products and integrity of the store as in the price, so I think the process for most includes shopping for all those things and finding a good balance. (It sounds like LWO has developed a good framework for people to do that, while still protecting him/herself).

To think most people do not have to think about cost (in such an expensive endeavor, at that) is unrealistic. As is expecting effortless quick decisions, from laypeople who are making large investments and permanent decisions in their lives (amid option overload).

The op has had limited experience with one store, which has not presented itself very well. I would hardly call that serial shopping, cluttering up the showroom, or by her having had the nerve to inquire about a couple modifications (aka providing design feedback) being a pia or picky. That's completely absurd.

" .... a KD you can work with & have confidence in is what you should be looking for, not one that makes you feel that are a pest."

Ditto that! I wouldn't be giving those people one cent. If they can't just speak up and tell you their policies, but would rather play games like ignoring you so that they can "break up with you" without actually saying so, then they have a real communication problem. And you don't want to be dealing with someone who can't communicate openly through this process.

Thanks everyone and I agree, and I brought in my OWN layout above she didn't design it! She just plugged in some cabinet sizes to the base layout. And as the customer it's not my place to say " hey you seem annoyed by my changes would you like more money would that help" I mean come on lol. Also how can I decide if I want to go with them and leave a "retainer" if I can't get an accurate price from them on the design I'm looking for! Now I'm not speaking for all cabinet places, I'm speaking of my situation. I understand what LWO is saying but 1. It's my design not theirs 2. I made minor changes 3. I gave them at least $150 to come to my house to meas. I know that's nothing but I also don't just give away $150 to random people and walk away either!
So LWO and TB I do understand what you are saying there has to be a limit about how much time you invest in fly by customers I totally get it! But that needs to be stated to the customer like LWO does, it's that simple.

@texasgem that is basically what I did! Or was trying to do!

ok so here's my rant that is straight up fact but sure to tick off some design folks- my husband works (and i formerly worked) in the high tech computer networking industry. his company and any other company trying to get an account will come to the customer sight for an appt, create a design on cad based on their network needs, have another meeting to present the design, redo the design or negotiate pricing all while getting not one red cent from the customer and having no idea if all this work will win them the account. almost no other industry works like kitchen design where they charge you just for their design before you even know if you can afford their cabs. i could have paid for a design from a kd that sells plain & fancy without realizing it was 3 times what i could afford! the whole process pits customer against kd from the get go

"To think most people do not have to think about cost (in such an expensive endeavor, at that) is unrealistic. As is expecting effortless quick decisions, from laypeople who are making large investments and permanent decisions in their lives (amid option overload)."

Who is asking people to not think about cost? Please find one person in this thread that has made that claim.

If anyone is asking customers to think about cost, it's the KD's and showrooms. That is why qualifying customers, that is, ascertaining whether or not a potential customer has the will and ability to buy in a given price range at a particular time, is so important to save time for all.

When a KD asks "In what price range are you comfortable?", she isn't being nosey, she's working. Working to save time for herself and the customer.

On a similar note, my homeowner association was recently fired by our landscapers.

After months of attending HOA meetings where I repeatedly documented the ripped lawn from mowing wet grass where they should have been weed-wacking, with no change from the landscaper, the light in my head finally went off.

They are firing us. For some reason, they won't come to us and ask for the additional money it would take to cut the wet grass without ruining the lawn and they won't eat the costs either. They prefer to slowly pi$$ us off.

It worked. We finally got rid of them and the new landscape bids came in 25% higher than the old. The new guys haven't torn up the lawn yet, but the season is early. Let's hope 25% was enough.

"no other industry works like kitchen design"
Architecture, interior, graphic, industrial,most mechanical, web, fashion design along with your hairdresser, to name a few.

jakuvall- i notice you left out the word "almost" when quoting me. i said almost because yes architects work on a retainer. web design and graphic design maybe on a small scale but not for a big company. a large account would require a potential designer to give bid for the job by showing the customer what they could do for what kind of cost. the computer industry works the same way, they bid for a job, ie win the sale by proving they are the best choice. construction firms work in the same manner. it is very unusual to pay for a service before you get an idea of what the end result will look like and using a haircut doesn't fly since a haircut is maybe $100 on the high end, a kitchen is thousands, not at all the same!

No one does any design work without knowing what the client's budget is. Or, at least they shouldn't if they are smart designers. It would be suicidally foolish to present a 70K design that hits the entire wish list presented to someone who lives in a 150K house and really only wants to spend 10K. Part of our jobs, and the reason we have showrooms, is to educate the client as to what they can get for their money. No one starts out knowing what things like this cost, and everyone, regardless of the depth of their budget, automatically underbudgets for the real world costs of a renovation. Part of my showroom tour consists of showing off all of those bells and whistles, but also explaining what they are likely to cost. Too many Houzz dreamers want it all, but for $1.98, and hearing that all of those featured white kitchens with fully integrated SubZeros are all 100K+ redos shouldn't shock them, but it does.

Bottom line is that if I can't get a number out of a client, I don't do any work. I repeat the question until I get an answer in some form or another. I'll tell them the budget range of the last few projects that I did in each of my lines and ask where they think they fit in. I'll ask them if they were buying a new car, what do they think they'd spend on it. Or, to mentally figure up 5-10% of their home's value. But, without some form of budget self selection, it's impossible to get the right cabinet line and features dialed in. I want to give someone as much of the things that they want for whatever they have to spend. It's just as useless for me to give a client an 8K kitchen design when they were looking for that 80K kitchen as it is the other way around.

LWO- what about what I asked earlier? No design work involved? Do you still refuse?

lwo- well said and my hunch is your common sense and expertise combined is what makes you very good at what you do!
to prove your point about customers not having a clue about costs, through online research i came across crown point cabs in a little town in nh where my husband grew up. since it is a middle class area, i thought it would be cheap. um, no! and to be helpful to us budget shoppers, they have an average kitchen cost on their website. it was more than i was looking to spend by quite a lot so i didn't waste their time getting materials or a quote. had i not seen that price range, i would have wasted my time and theirs.

"maybe on a small scale but not for a big company. a large account would require a potential designer to give bid for the job by showing the customer what they could do for what kind of cost. "
Sure- a body of work, a discussion of budget, a few concepts- one meeting maybe two. Hardest part was the budget- little other prep work for that.

If the project isn't landed by the second meeting it won't be.-I've been a designer for 40 yrs across 4 industries, have a fairly extensive network of designers in varied disciplines, and half of my friends are. Most of the work they and I do or did was with Fortune 500's. Bigger business doesn't waste time. Can you do this, will you do what we need, roughly how much- good. Give me paper and we'll cut you a check to start.

Smaller businesses are harder- consumers are the hardest.

I take care of my clients really well, as good as any. I make sure they get what they need. I'm a little more flexible with customers, not yet clients, than many. Try to be clear and make it easy. I do not tolerate any nonsense from myself, employees, vendors OR customers though.

Some customers don't become clients- maybe they don't like the system we use- not a problem. Or perhaps they aren't looking to buy what we sell. The box store is 1/2 mile down the road.

I've found that trying to understand how things work, what a business is and sells, I stand a good chance of getting what I need, maybe even what I want. Complaining about the way things are hasn't ever worked out all that well for me.
YMMV

One of the biggest misconceptons in this thread is that someone presenting "their own design" doesn't need any design work. Far from true! Lay people understand boxes, not cabinetry. They don't understand where you need a filler and where you can get by without one, and that context matters as far as whether or not you need to add a finished side (or two) to a cabinet or if you can get by without that upgrade. Molding? With 150+ choices for "basic crown", the dollar figures can vary dramatically. With the choice of minor little upgrades like a full depth shelf in a base, the price can change by $50 or for a glass cabinet, adding in matching interior, integrated finsished sides, mullions, glass, glass shelves-----that can be an 800% increase in cost to a basic cabinet. Some of those "simple" little changes are not really simple. All of them take time. You have to lay out the space and plug in the cabinets to be able to present even the only works on paper and not real life "customer's design" to them. People don't understand that walls aren't straight and corners aren't true, and that means you always always always need to have a fudge factor built into the design, especially for the inside leg of a U kitchen. And almost no one understands clearances for doors and drawers and knobs and appliances. Even some KD's don't do well with that issue sometimes.

Unless you just present a list of cabinet boxes to be quoted. Even that has to go in 20/20 and all of the variables (door style, overlay, wood species, finish, etc.) plugged in to get a "simple" price. You don't just go through a thousand page book for list and multiply that by your multiplier to do a quote. At least, most shops in the 21st century don't. Beleive it or not, as much work as 20/20 makes for doing a "simple" quote, it's far easier than trying to do it by hand the 1985 way.

Trebruchet, can you explain the reason for purposely doing bad work in order to get fired? I don't understand that. It seems incredibly passive aggressive (and I'm from the South where young ladies are taught passive aggressiveness as part of debutante training). It also seems to indicate a lack of integrity or professionalism. Why not just call and say you no longer want to do the job or you are raising your price? It's hard for me to comprehend any professional ever doing intentionally bad work.

edb2n- I have to agree. My husband works for an IT company and they have had to fire a few customers. Every time they have, they contact the business directly and explain that they will need to find a new IT solutions company that will work better, they don't just start giving crappy service.

If they did, they would almost certainly find themselves in court for breach of contract.

TexasGem, of course I would give you a price. :) Anyone who walks through the door would get that. Maybe not right away, as if I'm busy on a current project, that's going to be my priority first and I'd have to get to yours as quickly as I could.

But, you have to understand that the price of cabinets is all about context, and unless you know the nomenclature and options of a line well enough to indicate which options that you want attached to those cabinets in your quote, your quote isn't a very good way to judge either the abilities of a KD, or the price of any line you are considering.

Instead, consider making an appointment with several KD's. Explain your project to them, and have them guide you into which cabinet line that they feel suits your objectives and budget. Asking for a quote for boxes doesn't let you take advantage of the depth of knowledge that the KD has to make something good even better by taking advantage of the strengths of one line over another. And it does zero to assure you that your design actually works for the space. How am I to know what fillers would be "appropriate" to the space if I'm just quoting you parts?

For instance, for your 3 30" drawer bases, is that 3 drawer bases of 4 drawer bases or some other configuration? In my higher end line, you'd have over 1000 choices, without even considering the dozen ways that you could possibly finish off the sides.

For the wall oven cabinet, what width oven are you purchasing? How tall are you talking? Is that an actual double wall oven cabinet, or are you talking a MW over a single oven? How tall do you want the bottom oven to be off of the floor? A single drawer below, or a double drawer? A simple shelf cabinet above? Sides finished? How?

42" sink base? Why? That's oversized and inefficient. Sink bases are not very useful, so the smaller you can make them, the more storage you can have elsewhere. Will the sink base be bumped out? Any decorative fluting or posts for the sink? Standard drop in or undermount sink, or farm sink? Tip out trays, etc.?

For the 24" uppers, how tall? Single door? Double door? Butt door? When you're asking about glass, there are over 100 choices for mullions, or clear frame, or glass style. Each one is a different cost. Glass shelves or wooden?

So, to even give you a quote, I'd have to spend about 15 minutes actually narrowing down the things that you may not have included because you forgot, or had no idea were important. Then, we'd have to narrow it down further because pricing depends entirely on which doorstyle you are in in which line. Kemper has a 1-19 scale to be able to judge sorta how one door is more costly relative to another. That 1 is a partial overlay recessed panel oak door (Danbury), and that 19 is a mitered applied molding maple door with paint and glaze (Warwick).

If I were unethical, and lowballing you, I could quote you the Danbury in a stain using 30" H wall cabinets with a single door, a 27"x 84" oven cabinet that will only hold a 24" oven, and triple drawers on those drawer stacks with furniture board construction. ($3000)

You might want Danbury with 93" tall oven cabinet that fits a 30" oven and MW (which would be 33"W) and butt doors in that painted, and glazed maple, with all of those 39"H glass (simple open frames with clear glass) and 4 drawer bases, all with plywood boxes. That $8200 represents the other end of the pricing spectrum, and that is in a single line, without even finished sides, because you have to have which sides to finish worked out in the design.

So, now I've spent a 45 minutes doing that, for free and typing it up. Good thing it's my lunch, right? :-)

BTW, don't assume that a more expensive line would automatically be astronomically more. That same $8200 quote in the Artesia door style, (most expensive group 7) door in Dynasty is only $8600, and all ply is standard with Dynasty, as is finishing off the sides in a plain paint, and if you needed a custom cabinet, there is no charge for reducing the size of a cabinet. You'd pay the same for an 29" drawer base as you would a 30". In the end, Dynasty might be a much better value for a customer, and the quote might actually be cheaper in the end after all of the upgrades for the finishing touches are added.

LWO- you sound like the kind of KD the OP needs! :)